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Violent sex

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12:38 / 29.04.02

A friend told me this story last night:

He was in bed with this girl, who we shall call Lucy for now. He was on top of her, doing the business, and he said that he was getting increasingly pissed off with her, because she had this stupid, innane grin on her face, like she was the HAPPIEST girl in the world. He said that she looked like she'd just dropped a pill for the first time, and it was doing his head right in.

So he slapped her. He didn't even know what he was doing. He was just as shocked as she was afterwards. He said that they carried on, and to paraphrase, "it was the best sex either of us ever had".

He's still very friendly with Lucy you see. Bootey-call friendly.

So, my questions:

Is sex better when you want to hurt the person you're with just as much as love them? Are those dodgy relationships we occasionally get in or which we sometimes see traces of around us more passionate because the stakes are higher? Does the pain of a huge argument make the sexual resolution more rich and rewarding?

I'm thinking how these relationships could = s&m without the leather here.

Thoughts?

14:36 / 29.04.02

Hmm. If I want to hurt the person I'm with, I don't want to have sex with them. I think if I was in that situation and the girl was really annoying me, I'd probably just push her off and leave.

I've been in some very dodgy relationships but I can't say the sex was good because of that; in fact, it made it worse.

There's a difference between aggressive sex, or violent sex, and actual annoyance or hatred.

MaximusOverdrive

15:19 / 29.04.02

the violence in my sex has always been consensual. never clawed a girl's back or bit or anything without knowing ahead of time that it would be okay to do said action. that said, i do think that a bit of violence or anger can bring a different kind of energy to the sexual experience, but so can that deep-groove lovemaking with candles and foods and lots of licking and cuddling. it's all a matter of what you want as an end effect.

Kali, Queen of Kitteh

02:25 / 30.04.02

Oh dear. This has been an interesting dilemma for yours truly as of late.

While I have always known I have harbored these dark little impulses, nothing ever really came of it. I mean, there was light pain because I didn't know how to ask for it the way I really wanted it, and because perhaps a little part of me is somewhat disturbed that these impulses are here at all.

And then you meet the person who encourages, or rather brings this side to life, and it's not at all who you expected...

That's when things get fucked up.

03:20 / 30.04.02

This is the part of the story where I tell how over lunch at a local place last week, the lovely Ms Kali and I had a heart-to-heart regaurding all sorta of things, this topic being one of them. Me offering to loan her my handcuffs for some post Jon Spencer Blues Explosion fun w/ her boy, and other such 'dark' things. I tried to assure her that it's not 'un-normal' to think/feel these things. She, however did not notice the two tourist women from seattle looking completly mortified about the topic at hand, and occisinally stopping talking altogether to listen to us.
anyway... I think if you both sorta talk it out beforehand, to establish rough (no pun intended) boundries it can be great fun for all.
As for booty-call types, the guy I most often booty-call dosen't seem to be interested in that stuff anyway, so I don't mention it.
and Headmaster...what was the big deal w/ the girl smiling BTW... i mean, if it was good sex, isn't it okay to smile? and a slap to the face? wouldn't a nice little spank be okay to start with?
hmmm...

04:55 / 30.04.02

I once dated a girl who said that it wasn't sex unless one of us was bleeding. It was usually me, cuz I have reservations against hitting a girl, but she really dug it apparently. It was really good sex, but no girl since her has really been into that sort of thing and I can't say that I miss it too much (though there are times when I extremely dislike the person whom I'm having sex with and wouldn't mind belting the person). And now I don't have odd bruises all over me that I have to explain. I was a lot angrier at fifteen too, may have had something to do with it.

09:37 / 30.04.02

I reckon something. It's that if it turns you on, and it really does and that means both of you, in a way that's really great. I'd say that if you're both fully consenting, and you know deep down that you don't mean a damn thing by it, except that it made you hot, then great. I think that act previously described and hereafter referred to as the 'hot agressive sex' rates hire that when two people would lie there and think of england and have sex that makes themselves sad.
I mean have you ever had really great sex? man, that sure is a nice feeling. So, yay for violent sex.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

02:21 / 01.05.02

I was involved with a girl for a while who would have to wrassle you efore she would sleep with you. The first time we slept together, she initatiated contact by beating me up with a pillow, and by the end of the night we'd pretty much had a full-blown wrasslin match. It soon go to the point where I would go to bed, and 15 or 20 minutes lter she woudl jump on me and have to be restrained from smacking me around.

Great sex, but it wasn't until I went to the gym during our second week that I realized I was just covered in bruises. I kept wondering if she could have sex without being "beaten" beforehand...and I still wonder.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

03:29 / 01.05.02

Okay- I was hoping that this thread would die a natural death, but I'm getting *seriously* worried about some of the issues that have cropped up here. It's great to see that most of the posters emphasise consent, but I get the feeling that there might be some fuzziness as to where consent ends and abuse begins.

So for those of you who are genuinely looking for information, here's some resources on S&M.

Please have a read.

This page has a good essay on the subject of abuse in general, and some useful links.
Paracelsus BDSM Portal :: HEALTH & SAFETY :: Abuse More useful stuff here.
soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm FAQ General FAQ; pretty comprehensive.

09:39 / 01.05.02

If you're genuinely worried about the issues raised then buzz off and don't come back. Last time I looked you didn't have the right to declare what was fit und unfit for the conversation.

I'm not impressed with your multiple links either, which suggest that you are trying to kill the thread dead. In my eyes it's a legitimate subject.

Look, if you don't agree with the tone of my original post or indeed everyone elses in this thread, hit your ignore button.

It's what I'd do!

09:53 / 01.05.02

I think MC's links are extremely useful and interesting. She did not appear in any way to be saying what was 'fit or unfit' for the conversation - simply expressing concern (reasonable concern, imho) over certain fuzzinesses, and offering some links to information for those that care to think about this in more detail and with resources behind them.

This thread *does* cover a legitimate subject, and one not entirely dissimilar from one of my own threads a while back. The tone it started with is, however, disturbing and *imo* inappropriate, and I think MC did us all a favour with those links.

10:16 / 01.05.02

Its a rather obvious point but, given headmasters response to MC, one that is worth reiterating.

SM relationships can become abusive. Even if they don't involve "leather".

If you are starting to play and aren't sure then you should talk about it and find out about it. MC's links are a good place to start. Apologies for being so patronising, but objecting to someone raising the issues of consent and safety is entirely irresponsible.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:32 / 01.05.02

The Knodger's only sadism is in posting, the only masochism is in replying. However, on the off-chance that this is a sincere enquiry:

Headmaster, your "friend" got very lucky, in that he was not immediately punched in the face. I'd suggest not trying it with every girl he ever has sex with. And, perhaps, talking about this beforehand may be a good idea. There are sometimes cues during sex which suggest moving to different levels and modes of interaction, but misreading "I want you to talk dirty to me" as "I want you to smack me" could have some very unfortunate ramifications. If he was good enough to justify a repeat performance, they could always have discussed what they would like to happen during it.

And S&M without leather is not just possible but pretty common, btw.

10:33 / 01.05.02

can this thread be moved to headshop or something?

10:34 / 01.05.02

I object to the fact that Mordant said she wanted to see the thread dead. Personally, I don't see the point in posting links to 'thinky-type' essays in an experience-based discussion thread. End of story.

Now, let's discuss violent sex.

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:39 / 01.05.02

It's Knodger. Oh well.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

10:44 / 01.05.02

I don't think it's the topic she's irritated by. Calm down, headmaster.

Frankly, I think the topic's intersting, but I take serious issue with your opening post. Hitting someone because you don't like them is not anything I'd consider sex. You don't like someone in bed, you got no business being in bed with them. Hitting someone 'cos they're smiling, that's a violence/power trip, it's not cool. Someone did that to me or one of my friends, they'd be out of the bedroom and the relationship in zero time. That way leads abuse, not consensual SM sex.

10:47 / 01.05.02

ok, PLEASE can we move this thread into headshop?

10:51 / 01.05.02

I must get one of Haus' Knodgedar devices. Or is it that it's a relatively sensible topic that has suddenly turned bitchy?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:54 / 01.05.02

No criticism of any genuine poster was intended. The links I supplied were meant to add to the thread; threads don't die if you post more stuff on them.

Why not leave this thread in the conversation where the topic starter chose to put it, and begin a new thread in the headshop?

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:07 / 01.05.02

Agreed.

11:08 / 01.05.02

Thirded.

Matthew Fluxington

11:39 / 01.05.02

I think that the quality of sex tends to reflect the state of your relationship at the time, so highly affectionate sex suits lovey-dovey times, and rough sex suits angsty periods, etc. I would think that if one was having rough sex all of the time, it probably is a good indication of some problems in the relationship - resentment, a lack of respect, etc. I do think that if a couple are mixing it up and having rough sex once in a while here and there, it doesn't exactly mean the same thing as people who are doing it all of the time.

11:56 / 01.05.02

I think that is rather a simple, and misleading, correlation between affection and affectionate sex. I would be very wary of a relationship where anger was expressed through aggression or even violence in bed.

In fact, for SM, I'd say that the opposite is the case. That is, in order to properly play and indulge SM fantasies, there has to be a great deal of trust. Feeling genuine aggression towards the other person undermines that trust and compromises the experience. It should set off alarm bells if you feel anger during rough sex or SM play - you may be crossing the line to abuse.

12:59 / 01.05.02

flux, you are way off...think of it more like talking - some people talk softly and with little expression, some people are incredibly loud and very animated. doesnt necessarily mean that they have different messages, or one feels stronger than the other one does. just different methods of delivery

Matthew Fluxington

14:30 / 01.05.02

some people talk softly and with little expression, some people are incredibly loud and very animated. doesnt necessarily mean that they have different messages, or one feels stronger than the other one does. just different methods of delivery

Um, yeah, I guess that's one reaction to something I wasn't really saying.

14:36 / 01.05.02

ok, if youd rather believe that people sexual preferences/behaviors are a direct result of their mood, go on then

Matthew Fluxington

14:50 / 01.05.02

I would think it's a lot more reasonable to suggest that people's sexual practices regarding the level of violence in their sex acts is a bit more fluid and mood/emotion/idea based, yeah. Wouldn't you think it's more dangerous to believe that people are static or binary, as yr suggesting?

15:01 / 01.05.02

Im not suggesting any such thing - fluidity in the bedroom behaviors is something that I highly advocate, as a matter of fact.

I am, however, saying that "highly affectionate sex suits lovey-dovey times" and "rough sex suits angsty periods" is dubious analysis of sexual behavior at best and "rough sex all of the time, it probably is a good indication of some problems in the relationship - resentment, a lack of respect, etc" is utter shit.

you are suggesting that there are intrinsic negative feelings in all rough sex, which is an utter fallacy that people who greatly enjoy various forms of it are sure to take issue with

15:03 / 01.05.02

people's sexual practices regarding the level of violence in their sex acts is a bit more fluid and mood/ emotion/idea based

There's a difference between suggesting that sexual practices can be fluid, and suggesting that there's a direct connection between "aggressive" sexual behaviour and aggressive attitudes, which is what I thought you were saying - and like Lurid, I would say this was not true. Rough sex does not necessarily indicate anger, or sublimated anger; it is more complex than that.

Matthew Fluxington

15:14 / 01.05.02

All I was saying that a person who insists upon violent sex at all times *might* have some problems entirely unrelated to the sex act. It's not too unreasonable to consider that there may be some level of pathology in a person who cannot separate sex from violence, is it? That's not that common, it's certainly not an indictment of those who enjoy S+M by any stretch.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:21 / 01.05.02

some people talk softly and with little expression, some people are incredibly loud and very animated

Although I tend to find that loud voices are less able to express variations in tone...

I prefer yodelling.

(Well - the thread is dead on the table. May as well get silly)

15:21 / 01.05.02

the fact that someone enjoys something in bed, even on a regular basis, isnt necessarily someone who in incapable of separating the two. there are, of course, exceptions, but I think its unfair to suggest that even most people who are involved in rough sex play are inherently violent people

15:39 / 01.05.02

A person who likes rough sex the whole time might have some other problems. Just as the fact that Haus enjoys yodeling in bed might be due to a traumatic experience with a severe Austrian nanny.

The point is that by highlighting this, you imply that it is likely, perhaps indicative. I'm really not sure that it is.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

16:01 / 01.05.02

An image I hope never to encounter again.

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