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The econmics of feeding ourselves.

 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
18:32 / 27.04.02
Ierne said:
\"And – at least here in NYC – they\'re all bloody expensive\", in reference to organic/ethical foodstuffs.

Which chimes in with something I\'ve been thinking about alot recently.

How does the economics of feeding ourselves work?

Is there an assumption that organic food is a middle-class, middle-income concern... UK supermarkets at least are all patting themselves on the back alot for providing organic foods, but it\'s definitely a luxury to do your entire foodshop organically (and to add in fair trade products makes a bogstandard food shop astronomically expensive), so is it a token effort for a middle class consumer, which has no real impact on shopping habits at large?

The supermarkets don't seem to expect people on low incomes to these concerns. Have the feeling that organics are being marketed in a very 'rocket and sundried tomatoes salad, darling' way... (speaking as an utter victim of all this kind of thing.)

The whole tv chef/sundried tomato culture? Is it at last an attempt at some decent quality food in the UK (compared to a lot of contintental Europe, quality and price of food is appalling) or another way to pile the pennies on the prices?

Are cheap 'value' products packaged in order to make it embarrassing for people who aren't 'wacky students' to buy them?

How about the notion that people on lower incomes, and with less space in modern houses, are less able to do the cheapest forms of shopping possible, ie to bulk buy and store? And that with the trend away from local shopping parades and towards out of town supermarkets, people who don\'t live in urban/city centre areas (generally expensive) or don\'t have cars are unable to do larger scale ecnomical shopping and instead either have to manage kids and several bags of shopping on long bus journeys, take a taxi or buy food more reguarly?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
01:50 / 28.04.02
a few thoughts here: i *hate* the 'value' brands in supermarkets. it's a false economy (washing up liquid that's like water, bread that just doesn't fill you up), as you say, plums, it's packaged in a way that makes buying it embarrassing. a stigma, like having food coupons. the stuff seemed to appear after the last recession in this country (u.k.), presumably in answer to a genuine need for low cost food. but it's clear that the stuff is also incredibly low quality.

i think a lot of healthier/greener stuff is deliberately high priced. i'm thinking about stuff like 'green' washing up liquid, bathroom cleaners etc. it doesn't really make sense for us to pay more for products that create less damage. so why is it so expensive? maybe because at some point we will all realise that we *have* to buy it. someone's gonna be making lots of money from the planet's fucked upness. having a conscience is expensive. and as for the food, i hate the pretence that you can buy into jamie oliver's lifestyle if you fork out at sainsburys. i hate seeing the decent quality, healthier options that i and a lot of people cannot afford.

basically, i just don't think most of the people involved in greener product manufacture care about the ethical side. it's just another way to make money. and it's nice if you're middle class and can get your organic food and sit there smugly saying how you care about the planet, but a hell of a lot of us just don't have that option. and it stinks.
 
 
solid~liquid onwards
11:40 / 28.04.02
my family would definitely be filed under middle class, and also buy token organic products...but you really cant afford to buy all organic but my mum accepts that most organic products are probablly contaminated by other crops, but the token gesture is to show support for the organic industry, which was very small, but its been rapidlly growing, which will in the longer run result in decreased price and increased availability.

As for "value" products, outside my enormous house my mums horses are fighting, next door are our three luxury holiday cottages we rent out, and a car journey would take you to my dads castle/hotel and i practically live on tesco value baked beans and spaghetti.
 
 
Cavatina
12:09 / 28.04.02
"... in the UK (compared to a lot of contintental Europe, quality and price of food is appalling)... ." - Plums

Not directly on the topic, I know, Plums, but I'd be interested to know the cost of veg in the U.K. relative to here in Oz. For instance, yesterday I bought the following (non-organic) items - all very good quality - from the local greengrocer's shop (prices, from my docket, include GST):

2 large heads of broccoli (1.540Kg) $4.60 (@ $2.99 per kg)
1 cos lettuce $1.99
1 bunch spring onions $1.50
1 garlic $1.47 (@ $13.99 per kg)
1 Lebanese cucumber $0.70 (@ $3.99 per kg)
approx 80gm rocket $1.44 (@ $17.99 per kg)
1 brown onion $0.27 ($1.29 per kg)
6 packham pears $4.61 (@$3.99 per kg)
5 'vine grown' tomatoes $2.02 (@ $4.99 kg)
6 valencia oranges $5.71 (@ $3.99 kg)
bunch carrots $2.99

Organic veg from the Central Market in the city is usually also pretty good, but slightly dearer.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
18:32 / 28.04.02
good point, Cavatina, will try and keep an eye out when I next go shopping to do a comparison...
 
 
Perfect Tommy
02:12 / 29.04.02
"it\'s definitely a luxury to do your entire foodshop organically (and to add in fair trade products makes a bogstandard food shop astronomically expensive)..."--Plums

For what it's worth, I've found that the way to make it semi-possible to eat organically on a tight budget is to (1) stop trying to shop in one place, and (2) buy what's on sale and cheap and plan a menu around that.

I've taken to going to the local whole foods market to buy the produce that looks appealing and/or is unusually cheap, then buying everything else I need to cook that produce at the local 99-cent store or semi-independently owned grocer.

It's not a perfect system, and it's definitely not convenient without a car--but it's a decent middle ground between eating poor quality cheap produce or eating five-dollar cereal.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
02:13 / 29.04.02
... all leading me to wonder just how much the "convenience" of a supermarket actually costs, beyond the price of food and sundries.
 
 
grant
16:24 / 29.04.02
do any of y'all go to "u-pick" farms? There used to be a couple near me, but they're all housing developments now.
not necessarily organic, but definitely fresh and cheap.

i mentioned in another thread that the local organic/health food chain is occasionally cheaper than the local supermarket - which took me by surprise. buying bulk food (like granola) helps.

the best buys for this sort of thing *seems* to be co-op markets. unfortunately, the nearest one i know is in vermont - which is the other end of the country from me.
 
 
Ierne
17:36 / 29.04.02
Wow grant – there's no co-op markets in Florida? Makes me glad for the one we have in Brooklyn...and I never go there because it's on the whole other side of the Slope from me.

I wonder if it ties into what Plums was saying about the whole health food thing being connected with a certain class because of its expense; people in a different financial bracket, even though they would benefit from it, don't feel that things like co-ops or health food is "for them." I find it funny that the Brooklyn co-op, which supposedly has as one of its aims good food for less money, is located in one of the more high-income parts of the borough and frequented for the most part by those who (can afford to) live in the immediate area.
 
 
MJ-12
18:36 / 29.04.02
any of these near you, grant?
 
 
grant
20:37 / 29.04.02
That's pretty cool! The closest is Melbourne, and it's two hours north. Cape Canaveral is a little farther, and the other two are way the fuck up in the panhandle (seven to 10 hours, breaking the speed limit).

But I can look up the one in Melbourne next time I'm there....
 
 
grant
20:43 / 29.04.02
Here's a tangentially related anecdote from South Africa.
Under apartheid, the gov't started this health thing for the blacks, a kind of drive to keep their bodies healthy. The main offshoot was this omnipresent, brown-paper-wrapped, dirt cheap bread called "reinforced bread." It was whole wheat, coarsely ground, full of lovely bits of wheat germ.
The whites loved it, but the blacks didn't buy it. They thought white bread was less likely to be "dirty," and had no reason to trust anything the government was involved with regarding their welfare.

I think health food has a lot to do with not just economy, but the way desire for the food is manufactured culturally, through education and "what the rich folks can eat". Collard greens are great health food, and (i think) don't require lots of chemicals to grow (compared with something like corn or tomatoes), but you don't see it too often in the organic market or the upscale grocery because %it's food for rednecks and (discreet shudder) Negroes.%
 
  
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