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Re: abortion threads in headshop

18:22 / 26.04.02

Ive long thought about abortion and often argued about it

but recently, with cloning and other such potential/available technology (is that even the word Id want to use here? I cant quite decide) theres been whole new facets added, complete with legal issues and options that have never been considered

simple question, and without the heat of right/wrong ethics discussion - I just want to know how women feel about some of the potential problems, revolving around your body. I really dont want attacks on anyones positions...just genuine opinion of what reaction you personally have on your bodys intimate functions (whether you plan on utilizing it or not) being reduced to legal jargon (whether necessary and practical or not)

the prospects are very unnerving for me, and Im wondering if anyone else feels this way

(is this one of those threads Im going to regret starting?)

20:31 / 26.04.02

and this is in *conversation?*

well, i haven't thought too much about this on a personal level, being one who has never wanted for one minute to have a child, by any method or means, so i don't know what the 'women's movement''s thinking is on this. i would guess that we should be very involved in this all the way - as with the abortion issue, the thought that men are going to legislate and ultimately have power over our bodies is one that angers and worries me greatly. that's a general principle - i don't know the ins and outs of what the potential is.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:44 / 27.04.02

sfd: I hear ya. I got a little concerned for a while there when I thought the boys had accidentally hijacked those threads. Still would rather listen than talk.

On the other hand, it would be just as bad if the fellas didn't think about this stuff.

11:47 / 27.04.02

as i said in headshop, i can't discuss abortion any more. i am sick of it. i have just finished my abortion thesis, which i have been working on for a year. it's called "Keeping men’s laws off women’s bodies: The New Fight for Reproductive Rights and how George W. Bush’s anti-choice policies are dividing the Women’s Movement in the United States". it's great but i have had enough of abortion to last me several lifetimes.

i think it's good that abortion is being discussed here on barbelith - especially when considering the fact that legal abortion rights are very very close to being taken away by dubya.
bitchiekittie, yr right, it is very unnerving for women in the u.s. right now. i am now going to try and link you to a place where you can complain about bush's policies. i hope it works.
here
and here.

14:03 / 27.04.02

bk--I agree. I wrote in my last thread my concern about the new fertility technology. I keep thinking of the line from Tom Berger's Little Big Man--it's kind of corny but I'm just going ahead with this. It's about how, from the Cheyenne world-view, white people want everything to be dead. When Jack asks Old Lodge Skins if he hates the Americans, after a serious massacre, Old Lodge Skins replies "No . . . But now I understand them. I no longer believe they are fools or crazy. I know now that they do not drive away the buffalo by mistake or accidentally set fire to the prairie with their fire-wagon, or rub out Human Beings because of a misunderstanding. No, they WANT to do these things, and they succeed in doing them. They are a powerful people. . . .The Human Beings [The Cheyenne word for themselves] believe that everything is alive: not only men and animals but also water and earth and stones and also the dead and things from them like this hair. ... But white men believe everything is dead: stones, earth, animals, and people, even their own people. And if, in spite of that, things persist in trying to live, white men will rub them out."

I think that's my basic distress at this technology; it feels like it is not about life but about death, in some big way that I can't fully explain. There's something of the cult of death, to me, in the cult of fertility technology; with so many men in charge of these projects, I can't help but believe there's an attempt to do away with women. It sounds paranoid even to myself. Men have worried about not having a place in contemporary culture, certainly, but they've had that worry while still controlling the vast majority of material resources. Women are poor, worldwide. That lack of economic and social power combined with these new technologies makes me a little, well, terrified.

thanks for the thread, bk

23:33 / 27.04.02

Ill have to come back to this and contribute to it more when Im feeling more human and able to form coherent sentences

but one thing: I wanted this in conversation instead of headshop mainly for one reason - I cant put how Im feeling into words. Im not sure how to articulate any of it, its this weird uncomfortable feeling in me that has so many sources on so many different levels and possesses too many branches for me to follow. I have this very protective instinct (for myself, for others) that often overwhelms reason (well hey, youve seen it) and this whole subject has me unnerved. I dont want people shying away from expressing their opinions or even just their feelings because its not "headshoppy" enough

23:34 / 27.04.02

and thanks, suds - Im going to check those links out as soon as Im done wandering about on barbelith

15:10 / 28.04.02

alas - if you want to feed your paranoia check out the birth scenes in Hothead Paisan: Homicidal Lesbian Terrorist...

me, I'm totally ambivalent. I like the idea of living in a world where humans are produced by robots, in vats, and they have spines & little robot legs, and cat genes, but I also like the idea of living in a world where technology isn't seen as being in competition with embodied labour, & the womb can be thought of as a workshop or indeed a vat in its own right. Or a world which doesn't see the production of babies as a special case, but on a spectrum with all the cross-species and cross-body reproduction in which human bodies of all genders are constantly engaged.

in the meantime, I have no plans to breed and know few people who have bred or plan to do so, so I don't really have any opinions on it except that I wish people would let other people get on with creating babies and family structures by any means they want to. (That's not a dig at anyone here, btw.)

14:05 / 01.05.02

Im glad to see that Im not the only one feeling this trepidation.

Im still not sure if I can adequately say what Im thinking, but here goes a try...

to a point, I understand and even agree with the need for legal rights to be continually updated to meet up with current technology and medical advancements. I think thats something that everyone agrees on, no matter which side of the fence you place your ideals.

and I sympathize with men who want a say in what happens to the embryo which is created with their help. I often speak up on behalf of men who I think are legally screwed over because they are men.

I also understand the desire to come up with a solution that helps out women who find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy without terminating it.

but the physical, emotional, and mental toll that a pregnancy has the potential to create in a woman is not in any way quantifiable.

even if you never intend to make use of your productive organs, the fact remains that people are making decisions about them. no one discusses forcing men to undergo medical procedures or denying them the right to do so. Im not trying to turn this into a feminist argument, or even one for abortion. Im trying (albeit in a very stunted and confused manner) to express how frightening it is to think of someone making you do something with your body, for any reason