BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Warren Ellis

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
DaveBCooper
13:53 / 24.04.02
Someone alleged the other week (in a thread re Smallville, I think it was) that Warren Ellis is perhaps the world’s most successful writer of slash fiction, and I thought that was an interesting point, if essentially not true. However, it set me to thinking about Warren, and I couldn’t help coming to some conclusions, which I’ll get to in a moment.

First up, though, I’d like to make it clear that I LIKE a large amount of Warren’s work, and have followed his career since the days when Lazarus Churchyard was first printed in Blast! (late 80s?) to the present day. When he’s on form, I think Ellis is one of the best writers comics has, he deals with issues which non-comics readers will appreciate, and is one of the most articulate commentators on, and proponents of, the medium. The comics world would be, I think, less interesting and the poorer without him in it.

BUT. There are areas of weakness, some in terms of his methods, and some of which seem to contradict many of Ellis’s comments about improving the medium, and I can’t easily see how they’re reconciled. So, my list :

1. Pacing, or padding : call it what you will, there are some issues of Transmetropolitan which feature pages of Spider Jerusalem sitting and smoking, or drinking, or walking down the street. I know Warren’s allegedly gone on record as saying that he’s been experimenting with pacing in a manga-influenced style, but in a 22-page comic, that’s not really the place to be experimenting. Save it for the 128-page OGN (see point 3, below) Same thing applies to Authority, where the ‘widescreen comics’ idea does much the same sort of thing, and even Warren himself joked about ‘this [story] took four issues every time?’ (or words to that effect) in one of Gail Simone’s YABS columns over on comicbookresources.com. And again in Planetary, the number of panels per page is very low. I’m not saying that of necessity a comic has to take ages to write to be any good (John Wagner’s scripts are legendarily short, but the man balances text and art masterfully, whereas Alan Moore’s scripts are at the other extreme, but Moore also knows how many or how few words a panel can cope with). In this regard, Warren’s like the anti-Kevin Smith. Just like his films, Smith’s comics are overladen with dialogue, but at least someone who takes 15 minutes to read Green Arrow (or ‘Overdialogued Archer’ as Smith knowingly referred to it) might feel that they’ve got their money’s worth. Which is an important consideration if we want people to keep coming back to the medium (certainly why I only buy Transmet in TPB form; I feel less like I’m spending £2 on a 4min read).
2. New projects : I know that Warren’s been ill, and I understand that this has affected Batman/Planetary, Planetary itself, Ministry of Space (though I think that’s encountered more production-related problems as well ?), and probably other titles that I don’t recall offhand. Fair enough, everyone gets ill (for example, Kurt Busiek, another fine writer) and I’d be churlish and ignorant to berate solely on that basis. However, despite the fact that these titles are late by some margin, Warren keeps on announcing new projects in development or whatever. I think delivering ones which have already been solicited or otherwise promised would surely be the way to go… but for the issue of talent, one might almost draw a comparison with Rob Leifeld, who seemed to constantly announce new stuff whilst old stuff remains unfinished, to suitable ridicule. Such a comparison would just be insulting, and not accurate, but…I think you know what I mean.
3. Supporting the TPB and GN formats : sounds good to me, they very probably ARE the way forward for the medium (McCloud’s support for the internet notwithstanding). But Warren does precious little work in these formats – even his Caliber work tends to come out in what he’s dismissively referred to as ‘pamphlets’. I understand that it might make business sense, but… well, money where the mouth is and all that. Warren’s mocked Mark Alessi’s Crossgen in the past, but Alessi did risk his cash for the medium. I’m not saying Warren has to sling all his money into self-publishing or whatever (god knows he doesn’t need to – quite rightly, there are many publishers who are happy to publish his work), but howsabout he issues something as an Original Graphic Novel, instead of as issues which are then collected ? That would show real support for OGNs and TPBs as the way of the future.
4. Superheroes : Warren has said many times – and quite rightly, to my mind – that there are too many superhero comics, and that it unbalances the medium in the same was as if one genre dominated the publishing industry by a 70% margin. Very true, say I. But what are Planetary and Authority if not thinly-veiled superhero titles ?

All right, I’ll stop here, because I’d be interested in people’s responses. But let me reiterate that I think Warren is a good writer, and a fine and intelligent proponent of much of what the medium needs to do to develop and grow, and we need more like him. And his Forum on Delphi is a very interesting place to spend time, and to pick up news (though I suspect this post might make me unwelcome there again). But sometimes I fear that his love for the medium, and his obvious abilities, are rather at odds with … perhaps an over-savvy approach to the business of comics. Which is a shame.

Comments, anyone ?

DBC
 
 
SMS
14:28 / 24.04.02
Warren recognizes his hypocrisy when it comes to writing superhero comics, but I'm not really sure why he doesn't do more OGN work. Certainly anything he would do for Larry Young would be a complete story (although a graphic novel might be a stretch). This is something you'll have to ask him. Frame the question right and it won't seem disrespectful on WEF.

I consider his commitments to other projects to be a matter strictly between he and the publisher/editor. It is unwise to solicit material when matters may prevent it from being produced, but I think it's kind of silly that comics readers act as though their rights have somehow been violated. People actually thought Mark Waid had betrayed them when he quit writing the Flash!

His use of pacing doesn't bother me.

If he were to ask me why I stopped buying his comics, I would tell him that they were too ugly. There are too many instances of shitting, vomitting, yelling, and cursing angrily. The characters all seem either broken or ready to fight. The villains all seem to be villains because they're just evil, and they want to fuck with people. EVERY priest, nun, or religious figure is somewhere between wholly evil, and somewhat evil. Every religious person is a fool.

But he won't ask me why I stopped reading his work.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:29 / 24.04.02
But what are Planetary and Authority if not thinly-veiled superhero titles ?

Thinly veiled? What are you talking about? Planetary and Authority are straight-up superhero comics.

I won't mince words: Ellis is a total hack who is coasting an entire career on the strength of 12 issues of Authority and his talent at self-promotion and being a pundit. He makes a lot of noise about wanting diversity in comics, and all he ever does is write self-loathing superhero comics, or geeky genre-fiction. I see little to no difference between Transmetropolitan and any superhero comic as far as how dorky and non-mainstream it is.

He is part of the problem with comics, and has nothing to do with the solution.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:42 / 24.04.02
Someone alleged the other week (in a thread re Smallville, I think it was) that Warren Ellis is perhaps the world’s most successful writer of slash fiction.

On reflection, this is unfair. The writers of "Smallville" are, pretty much ipso facto the most successful writers of slash in the world, as a lot more people watch Smallville than read Warren Ellis.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:28 / 24.04.02
Re: Late books. The problem with your argument here is that you seem to have this image of Warren Ellis as the lone, Promethean capital-C Creator, responsible for all aspects of his work that—when, in fact, he's largely limited by his collaborators. The cold fact is that, although Warren's illnesses caused a hiatus last year, the vast majority of the delays are not his fault—not directly, anyway. During MoS's publishing hiatus, Chris Weston committed to THE FILTH, and John Cassaday committed to CAPTAIN AMERICA.

Re: Overabundance of new projects. Imagine you're Warren: If John Cassaday is committed to CAP right now and will be able to draw, at most, 12 pages of PLANETARY this month, but Colleen Doran has been ringing your phone for weeks looking for something to work on together, what are YOU gonna do? Write five PLANETARY scripts that Cassaday won't be able to get to for six months, or write an OGN for Colleen Doran?

Steady of flow of product from Warren means steady flow of income for Warren. I absolutely cannot blame him for his choices.

Re: pacing: You are correct that TRANSMET reads much better in TPB. Conversely, I find that works written to exploit the 22-page pamphlet format (PLANETARY springs to mind) don't read very well in collected, because the pacing is off. What works in one format doesn't necessarily work in another. That's a limitation of the format and of the reading experience of the individual reader. There's only so much that a writer can do to compensate for that. nThat said, TRANSMET was always written with an eye towards being collected, which is why it's paced as it is.

Re. TPBs and OGNs: Much of it is a matter of convincing the publishers: they're the ones who decide format (see above on the false image of the heroic all-powerful creator), and the potential economic loss is a pamphlet fails are far less than if a run of OGNs go in the tank. But it's worth noting that all of Warren's stuff is eventually TPB'd, and he's got at least three OGN's in the works. Baby steps: the industry as a whole is only in the last few years awakening to the economic and creative dead end that the pamphlet represents. And Warren, god bless him, was a voiuce in the wilderness for a while, though that seems to be changing (witness Verigo's HUMAN TARGET OGN, next month).

Re: Superheroes: Warren hasn't written THE AUTHORITY in years. Ancient fucking history. PLANETARY and its related projects are his swan song in the genre, with the exception of DC Universe project long-promised to editor Joey Cavalieri. His slate these days is overwhelmingly non-superhero—SF, crime fiction, historical, horror.

And yes, Flux, it's all "genre fiction." Why is that bad thing? Damn that Warren Ellis! How dare he want to make some money by producing stuff with broad mainstream appeal! Not everybody is suited for or interested in the avant-garde: and there's no shame (and plenty of revenue) in solid, well-crafted adventure fiction.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:41 / 24.04.02
And yes, Flux, it's all "genre fiction." Why is that bad thing? Damn that Warren Ellis! How dare he want to make some money by producing stuff with broad mainstream appeal! Not everybody is suited for or interested in the avant-garde: and there's no shame (and plenty of revenue) in solid, well-crafted adventure fiction.

Jack, I think you have me wrong: I think that Ellis writes virtually NOTHING with broad mainstream appeal, and probably never will.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:46 / 24.04.02
Okay. Let's define terms.

Give me some examplke of stuff you think has "broad mainstream appeal".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:50 / 24.04.02
I think he means that Ellis writes for fanboys, and will never get out of that ghetto.

And, because he writes for fanboys, who have limited critical faculties, he can produce pretty much any old shit safe in the knowledge that people will buy it. Strange Kiss, anyone? Any readers who come to it for the quality of the work...that's a bonus.

Don't get me wrong. I think Ellis is one of the best "newsstand" comics writers working today. But he does seem to struggel terribly with criticism, and I suspect that may extend to self-criticism.
 
 
sleazenation
15:54 / 24.04.02
Actually this discussion is already missing one of Ellis' most interesting initiatives- the warren ellis forum itself- you can say many things about the cult of ego that ellis cultivates there, but it does serve as an excellent focus group for extremely loyal readership, and a model for a kind of direct marketing that can only be dreamed of in the non-net world - wtness the speed at which the WEF alone managed to raise 20,000 dollars for top shelf recently. Make no mistake the WEF is important.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:58 / 24.04.02
Haus saith:
...because he writes for fanboys, who have limited critical faculties, he can produce pretty much any old shit safe in the knowledge that people will buy it...

Ah. Like Stephen King, then... who is only the best-selling author in the fucking world.

See, now, I've never made any claims for the quality of Ellis' work—only for his popular appeal. And I would've assumed that high sales figures, by definition, indicate "broad popular appeal."

If you don't happen to like the man's work, that's one thing. But, y'know...

 
 
The Knowledge
16:10 / 24.04.02
Yes I agree that the man is a very good writer. In particular I'm finding that Transmetropolitan is ending EXACTLY the way that I wished Preacher had ended - You get the feeling its gonna end right at the top of its run. Ellis is also a big fan of Frank Miller and talks at length about how much he digs the pacing in, for example, Sin City. I see a lot of that in his work, and I see the widestream approach that Warren made his own during his run on Authority as deeply indebted to Frank miller.

He DOES write a lot of slash style stuff. Stranger kisses was just all out gore with a touch of John Constantine and a cameo by Clint eastwood. I didn't like it enough to pick up the new series, but it was, original, if nothing else. A REAL horror comic. No holds barred.

I didn't dig his 'plotting job' on the x-titles. That sucked.

I think that he's got a lot of interesting things to say, but he's not one of the true masters. More ingenius than genius. Money for old rope and all that, what?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:11 / 24.04.02
I think Flux might be juxtaposing (and I'm loth to put words into his mouth) the idea "of broad popular appeal" within comics, where 100,000 a month or so is top-notch (is this right?), and "broad popular appeal" outside comics, ie writing comics which might sell to an audience who do not go to comics shops, read magazines or websites which devote themselves entirely to comics, and so on. An example of the latter might be "Maus", although I have no idea how many copies that sold so it could be a very bad example.

And, given that a knowledge of comparatively obscure characters from comics history (ie not Superman or Batman) is required to be in on the references of a lot of Planetary, Stormwatch, the Authority and so on, particularly when he decides to kill the JLA. Again (four times now, is it?), I can see where the accusation of insularity may spring from.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:21 / 24.04.02
Jack, I think you and I might have very different ideas of what "mainstream" means - you seem to be thinking of 'mainstream' as in the mainstream of the comics/fanboy market, while I'm thinking of mainstream in terms of pop culture at large.

I think that there's not a lot of things in the comics market that are accessable to a truly mainstream market, save for the superhero stuff that is so huge that it can be a cross-format franchise (Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, The X-Men).

Mmm... I think that a lot of work by Adrian Tomine, Daniel Clowes, Chester Brown, Debbie Dreschler, Andi Watson, Seth, Ariel Bordeaux, Terry Moore, Judd Winick, Jan Van Meter, Los Bros Hernandez, etc could potentially interest a broad mainstream audience. To a lesser degree, Grant Morrison, Peter Milligan, Alan Moore, all those crime fiction guys like Brian Azzarello, Greg Rucka, etc.

Like Haus says, Ellis writes pretty much exclusively for the geekiest element of comics fandom. He's a lot like Kevin Smith, I think, in terms of what he puts out and how he relates to his fans.

And dear FUCKING GOD, Ellis is a crap photographer. It's disgusting that he has published work, for real.
 
 
moriarty
16:26 / 24.04.02
Maus has sold over 400,000 copies.
 
 
moriarty
17:06 / 24.04.02
Obviously everyone seems to be running under a different idea of what "mainstream" means. Forexample, I'd say that easily half of the artists mentioned by Flux, with the exception of a few of their works, are even less mainstream than Warren Ellis. Much as I love them, I can't see Los Bros, Chester Brown, or Seth cracking what I'd consider to be the mainstream, mainly, work that isn't very challenging, or if it is challenging, can be read without haing to go in-depth. Basically I give it the Relatives Test. Would one of my relatives, when looking for something to waste away a summer day, choose this work. This can apply to movies, TV, music, comics, whatever. They'd choose Koontz over Kafka, or Spears over Pavement, or, um, Garfield over Palooka-ville. This doesn't mean they're stupid, or that they wouldn't read more complex comics under certain conditions, just that they spend their days poring over texts for their work and just want to come home and veg out.

The work of most of the artists you listed, Flux, have very narrow appeal, much like most genre fiction. Yes, occasionally something will jump out of this ghetto (Ghost World, Maus), in comics as in other mediums, but the same could be said for genre work (Sin City, Sandman). My vote for most mainstream comic artist would have to be Kyle Baker. He's the Everyman, managing to cram in stuff for every individual reader while still telling a great story. If more than half of the work being produced followed the Baker ethos, the industry would be a fucking powerhouse.

Which leads into restrictions imposed on the artists due to the way the industry is run. In an interview with the Comics Journal (fast becoming my favourite comic artist interview of all time) Baker talked about how he wanted to draw a dog comic book for kids. He was told that it ws a great idea, but it would never sell, and in fact comics for kids, including Bugs Bunny, don't sell. He went off on a rant about how if you can't sell Bugs Bunny, and every other medium and merchandiser on the planet can sell Bugs Bunny, then maybe there's something incredibly wrong with the comics industry.

At the very least Warren Ellis, like Neil Gaiman, is bringing comics to the attention of people who wouldn't normally read them. From there, these people might start buying other comics, which will lead to creators being able to accomplish a wider range of work, and for comic stores to take a chance on a wider assortment of product. These new customers may still be genre geeks, but at least they're a more diverse group of genre geeks. Me, I want to see westerns make a comeback.

And Planetary is not a superhero title.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:28 / 24.04.02
Jack, I think you and I might have very different ideas of what "mainstream" means - you seem to be thinking of 'mainstream' as in the mainstream of the comics/fanboy market, while I'm thinking of mainstream in terms of pop culture at large.

So am I. And crime fiction, SF and horror—the stuff that The Warren has been writing of late—belong squarely to mainstream pop culture: in the insular world of comics culture, they're fringe stuff—the mainstream is superheroes, superheroes, and more superheroes.

Mmm... I think that a lot of work by Adrian Tomine, Daniel Clowes, Chester Brown, Debbie Dreschler, Andi Watson, Seth, Ariel Bordeaux, Terry Moore, Judd Winick, Jan Van Meter, Los Bros Hernandez, etc could potentially interest a broad mainstream audience.

*splutters in disbelief*

Bullshit. Of all the effete, elitist...

Sorry, let me rephrase that:

I must disagree in strongest possible terms.

These people are making the comics equivalent of art-house movies, and Joe Sixpack stays away from that stuff in droves. And the Joe Sixpacks of the world are the folks who've made Stephen King and Garth Brooks best-sellers, who've made Tom Cruise and Arnold Schwarzenegger the top box-office draws.

See, the thing about popular culture is that it's got to be... well... popular. And populist. And for better or worse, The Warren has his sights set on that market—the meat-and-potatoes guys who like their beer cold and their TV loud.

All the creators you've mentioned are doing fringe-y stuff, at best: within your circle, perhaps, Chester Brown is mainstream... but the Man on the Street sees a clown with his dick out and snorts, "Yeah, like I'm gonna read that!"

Like I said, you don't have to like it... but Joe Sixpack is going to relate to Warren Ellis' paper action-movies far more readily than to Adrian Tomine's subtly-delineated relationship stories.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:47 / 24.04.02
I chose a lot of the people that I did because they write stories about average people. I think both Jack and Moriarty have a very negative view of the popular audience, and are forgetting that stories about regular people, stories that are based in reality are a massive chunk of what is normally considered "mainstream".

Joe Six-Pack is indeed a member of the broad mainstream audience, but he's not the be-all and end all, he's just one demographic. You're telling me that I'm being the elitist here, but you're the ones who are making these sweeping negative stereotypes, a belief that 'mainstream' automatically means "lowest common denominator". It doesn't.

What about a tv show like ER - that's a massively successful mainstream endeavor. I think comics needs more things like ER, a show which appeals to a very wide audience and is also smart and well-written. Think about things that are popular on tv, and in movies - that's popular entertainment. Think of books that sell well, but not exactly in the Clancy/King zone - I'm sure that if Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections or Michael Chabon's Cavalier and Clay came out in comic form; you'd be telling me that they are effete and elitist.

Please, think in realistic terms - I'm not thinking that these things could be huge million-sellers, just things that could be read by a wide range of people and enjoyed, things that could be respected by a mainstream audience. A lot of the things you mention are things that can be CONSUMED by mass media, but aren't going to be taken seriously.

Also, Jack - don't you think you're acting as though only MEN could possibly have an interest in reading comics? I certainly think that you are...
 
 
Jack Fear
17:51 / 24.04.02
Not even all men, Flux: only males 18-34.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:54 / 24.04.02
Well, don't you think that's BECAUSE of the 18-34 year old guys? Don't you think that's a good reason as to why the future of comics is best taken out of the hands of opportunist, tasteless hacks like Ellis?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:57 / 24.04.02
And Planetary is not a superhero title.

Oh, I'm sorry, is there another genre designation for a comic book about a team of super-powered people in bright, colorful costumes that I'm unaware of?
 
 
Jack Fear
18:17 / 24.04.02
For the third time: the pop culture is not necessarily the same as "stuff Flux likes."

The pop culture what it is, and you don't have to like it.

Warren Ellis is writing mainstream popular fiction: that's the only argument I've been making, without once weighing in on the merits of his work. We weren't debating aesthetics, we were defining terms—despite your best attempts to move the goalposts.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:34 / 24.04.02
Okay. You tell me how the work of Warren Ellis is setting the world of pop culture on fire, then. Or how it ever could.
 
 
moriarty
18:53 / 24.04.02
Whew. I'm going to have as much trouble with this response as I did the last one. Too much too soon for my little brain.

First up, while I agree with much of what Jack says, I think it's ajust a little unfair and unreasonable to lump our views in as one. For example, I never said anything like this, "you're the ones who are making these sweeping negative stereotypes, a belief that 'mainstream' automatically means "lowest common denominator". As I said in my previous post, I feel that many people I respect and admire choose certain forms of entertainment for relaxation or escapist value, not that they do this all the time. If I actually was painting these people in a negative fashion, then I would be doing the same to myself, and my ego is healthy enough that I wouldn't do that.

Most people I know don't give alot of thought to their purchases, or even buy a great deal of entertainment, at least in comparison to many of the people found on this board. To use myself as an example, I almost never buy, listen to, or think about music. In the eyes of someone who is absolutely in love with music, I imagine my tastes are atrocious and I may be considered the lowest common denominator. This doesn't take into account that I have other interests that I would rather put my time into.

To be honest, I'd like to clarify something from my previous post. I think it is incredibly hard to make a judgement on whether any one thing is mainstream as it can differ from one person to another. Howwever, I think one can judge whether a medium is mainstream by the amount of options available for diverse work within it. Therefore, my thinking that a western comic is somehow mainstream is ridiculous, just as I think Seth's Clyde Fans really wouldn't appeal to a huge number of people. But together, with various other genre and literary types, collectively these comics could be considered mainstream. Essentially, anything with a competent level of craft that promotes comics outside of the superhero genre is alright by me.

I don't want boring, middle of the road comics. I want everyone to be able to easily find a comic they will enjoy, just like practically every other medium is capable of. Apologies for not being more clear.

Flux, I remember when you listed comics that you could put on your coffee table for people to enjoy, many of which are comics that you have listed today. I'd include such favourites of mine as Krazy kat, Barnaby, Peter Arno and James Thurber to that list of worthwhile comics. I have introduced a number of these titles to people I know, with very little success. This doesn't mean that they aren't fine books or can't appeal to many people, but it seems that your friends are different than mine. There's nothig wrong with people having different tastes. Your views also seem different in that you want to promote comics that are intelligent and thought-provoking, and most of all not embarassing. I commend you for this, and I share your views, but not everyone is interested in that kind of work, and it doesn't make them bad people.

I also would like to see comics similar to ER or Clancy's novels, though I think that these are far more comparable to Ellis' work than they are to Clowes. They are, in fact, genre work, and these are just the type of entertainment I was referring to when I wrote my first post. The problem with these comics is that they probably wouldn't be immediately popular due to the stupidity of the comic industry and would then be labelled failures and cancelled. Back in the Golden Age, comics like these were all over the place, and comics regularly sold in the millions. Now, with the direct market and a dependence on fanboy dollars, it seems unlikely that comics will ever reach these heights again.

And, um, Planetary, because this is a Warren Ellis thread. I agree it walks the line, but I like to think that Planetary is more of an homage to all the great pop culture ideas that could have, or once did, have a place alongside superheroes and were once forgotten.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:07 / 24.04.02
Okay. You tell me how the work of Warren Ellis is setting the world of pop culture on fire, then. Or how it ever could.

Again, let's define our terms: "setting the world on fire" in what way? Commercially? Artistically? In terms of branding and recognition?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:20 / 24.04.02
Moriarty, I think we're more or less on a similar wavelength here. My big bone of contention in considering Warren Ellis mainstream is that he just can't pull himself away from fanboy-isms and spandex, no matter how much he protests it all. I think it's crazy to consider super-hero and sci-fi of the sub-Star Trek variety to be mainstream. Popular, maybe; but not mainstream.

Though there are obviously a great number of people who would really dig Warren Ellis' work; and his work does speak to a lot of bits of lowbrow pop culture that extend slightly just outside of superheroes, I think he's still a part of the reason why comics are generally considered embarassing and stupid to most people. His comics might not be standard superhero fare, but they are pretty typical of second-rate syndicated tv programming, ie Xena, Hercules, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Highlander, etc. For an industry so badly in need of good press, having one of yr brightest stars be a writer on par with the writers of what most people would consider the worst of tv and Hollywood cinema is very detrimental, I think. This isn't just Ellis - I've got the same problem with J.M. Staczynski, Brian Michael Bendis, Kevin Smith, Mark Millar, et al. I've got the same problem with loads of crap indie 'alternative' writers who write on the same level of the worst tv dramas at best, and on the level of high school students at worst.

I think Clowes can be considerably more mainstream than Ellis ever is, if just for the fact that you can hand a copy of Ghost World or Caricature to any given person, and the chances of them being repulsed a bit less likely than any given Ellis product. I think the fact that Clowes' work is considerably more accessable to women goes a long way, too.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:27 / 24.04.02
Okay. You tell me how the work of Warren Ellis is setting the world
Well, Jack - do you think that Ellis' work has had any impact whatsoever on the world outside of the narrow realm of comic books? Do you really think any of his products, given a big promotional budget, could actually be popular, even in a pop-cultural-footnote sort of way? Do you think his personality cult could possibly expand outside of the narrow confines of uber-geek culture?

Do you think Warren Ellis has the potential to EVER create something that could be as popular and relevant outside of the mainstream comic culture, something like Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, Maus, Jimmy Corrigan, or Ghost World?
 
 
Jack Fear
19:27 / 24.04.02
Popular, maybe; but not mainstream.

Define the difference.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:44 / 24.04.02
Well, I'd say popularity can be defined by doing big numbers in a demographic, or maybe a couple small demographics clustered together, but mainstream would need to have a big crossover effect that spilled into a large number of demographics.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
21:42 / 24.04.02
Mr Sleaze sez- "Make no mistake the WEF is important. "

True. But we wouldn't be able to have this conversation there, would we? Or a similar one about any of his friends...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:56 / 24.04.02
OK, I'm beginning to suspect that Warren Ellis introduced Jack to his wife, and murdered Flux's dog...

Here's a thought - I think Ellis' best work to date has been his run on Excalibur. Editorially unable to go for the tiresome grand guignol of his "mature" work, or the equally tiresome attempts to out-swear Garth Ennis in volume, crudity and originality, or the belief that he was doing something Big and Important and Revitalising of Comics like the X-reboot (X-Man cancelled, Generation X cancelled, X-Force effectively cancelled - quality), he had to concentrate on telling a good story, creating likable characters, doing the bits of Giffen-like interaction between sane people in insane circumstances that also marked out the better bits of Stormwatch. Uncertain in the opening issues, and directionless at the end, the Black Air section showed that, if you are prepared to work with the basic tenets of superhero comics rather than attempting sledgehammer subversion of same. I suspect his comparatively light workload also helped a lot, but don't have the facts at my disposal.
 
 
Utopia
01:28 / 25.04.02
i'm beginning to voice my true opinions about warren ellis, as seen in the online comics thread. i do truly dig his work. ellis banks on what i like to call "proletarian science." the first 13 issues or so of TRANSMET were entralling because of how he presented this new world. a lot of readers fell off after the "shiny new" gave way to actual storytelling. he's far from the best writer, but i'd hesitate to call him a hack when pretty much every other comics writer out there is merely recycling old ideas or bringing in old ideas from other genres/fields of study, making the new to comics reading audiences.\

--i'm sorry, i kind of lost my train of thought, but here's one thing i'm sure we can all agree on: ellis' work was better when we could go to the comic store and anticipate bracketing it with the other titles from the uk invasion of the mid-90's: PREACHER and THE INVISIBLES.
 
 
Hieronymus
02:14 / 25.04.02
I think a fundamental corelation needs to be made regarding 'mainstream' and 'popular' in the comics field. The reason why Ellis and Morrison and Moore write mythos/superhero-at-the-core stuff is because it sells. It pays the bills so they can try to push the envelope later down the road. And in what is a laughably tiny industry when compared to the realm of bestselling books and regular prose, superheroes and fanboy-stroking ARE the dominant and populist bread-and-butter of the industry. Clowes and the like are breaking those limitations, certainly, but not with industry-shaking success (at least not in the profit margins which everyone knows in the language of publishers, is the REAL revolution). They remain underground.

Scott McCloud talked about this. Point-blank, the comics field is tiny and insulated UNLESS it connects itself somehow to the same hype-inducing power that advertising holds reserved for books and movies and music. Until that happens, the industry will forever remain a fanboy's club. Ellis isn't the Anti-Christ, wielding the capes and tights schtick upon underground creators. He's not the problem. He's just one more symptom of it, is all.
 
 
The Damned Yankee
02:37 / 25.04.02
"Pop culture", "mainstream", whatever. I just know that I like the guy's work. Ellis TPB's are filling up my shelves with an alarming pace. I'm not specifically seeking out his work, but I've noticed that he's writing (or has written) the books that I like to read. Planetary, Transmet, The Authority, all of that stuff. I lent the first Planetary TPB to a guy I worked with at the library once. This guy, he was big into sci-fi movies and tv, but hadn't touched a comic in years. Some of the stuff (the Vertigo tribute, for instance) was over his head, but the Island Zero story hit him right between the eyes (in a good way, I mean). He's now semi-patiently tapping his foot and waiting for the next Planetary release like the rest of us, the book having re-ignited an old love for the funnybooks.

And you shoulda seen his eyes light up when I mentioned Planetary/JLA . . .

Anyway, I'd call that one up for Warren.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
03:32 / 25.04.02
Clowes and the like are breaking those limitations, certainly, but not with industry-shaking success (at least not in the profit margins which everyone knows in the language of publishers, is the REAL revolution). They remain underground.

Daniel Clowes is NOT THAT underground. He's not breaking sales records, but he's a hell of a lot more of a part of mainstream culture than Warren Ellis is, what with the Ghost World film, and the fact that Barnes & Nobles and Virgin Megastores all over the country stock Ghost World, David Boring, and Eightball #22 as featured items, often in the front of their stores in a special display.

As I said: the comics industry is small, and it's mostly BECAUSE of the superhero/scifi/fantasy/crime noir genre-fiction stranglehold on the industry. I think that no matter how good any of it is, anything produced as a comic that perpetuates any of the common fanboy/geek stereotypes is doing more to hold the artform back than carry it foward. To act as though superhero/genre comics are a legitimate mainstream for the artform is a defeatist attitude that shuts out the rest of the world, and contributes to the steady economic decline of the industry.

The first step towards rehabilitating the industry and mainstreaming comics as a part of the mass media is to acknowledge that the industry needs to play by the same rules as films, novels, and television.
 
 
bio k9
05:57 / 25.04.02
Clowes and the like are breaking those limitations, certainly, but not with industry-shaking success (at least not in the profit margins which everyone knows in the language of publishers, is the REAL revolution).

Funny that I bought my copies of the David Boring and Jimmy Corrigan hardcovers at the local Borders and not at my LCS. They weren't in the little comic corner either, they were displayed on tables in the front of the store. Also funny that the store sold out of its initial shipment in just a couple of days (the limited reordering they did was sent to the comic corner where a couple of each still sit). Did the fanboys ditch the shops to buy those books from Borders? Or did noncomic readers see those books on display and buy them? Either way, I have never seen a Warren Ellis book on a display table in the front of a bookstore, despite the fact that he thinks OGNs and bookstores are the way forward for the comics industry...
 
  

Page: (1)23

 
  
Add Your Reply