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Lost Highway

 
  

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The Natural Way
15:10 / 25.04.02
The above post was for Roth.

Vid: this is a bit frustrating. Where have I given the impression that I think any of it's objectively real? I know it's all subjective. But the murder is probably/potentially more "real" than the orgy stuff. I've always interpreted the sex stuff, which is obsessive, violent, male-gazey porn, as fantasy (Fred's insecurities bound up w/ his libido). I think I've been at pains to stress the subjective nature of the "narrative" all the way through this thread, so yr preaching to the converted here.
 
 
videodrome
15:11 / 25.04.02
Oh, and Runce, I'm not sure I buy the 'Male Gaze' bit. I tend to think that's a terribly over-inflated theory - claptrap that applies to a very limited scope of films, blown out of proportion due to the social context in which Mulvey first published it.

But if you can elaborate sometime, I'd be curious to hear your justifications for it. Might change my mind.
 
 
videodrome
15:14 / 25.04.02
I got that Runce - I was writing that more to clarify my post at the top, which acted just as a rundown of 'what probably happened' despite the fact that a lot of it happens in the background. I wasn't trying to imply that you had said anything to the contrary, re: objective/subjective happenings.

I think (as you seem to) the murder is the only objectively 'real' thing in the film - but of course Fred's recollection isn't even to be trusted there.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:32 / 25.04.02
Please read the post above this'n.

If you think that I mean Lynch was sitting there one day and suddenly decided "Hey, I've got a neat idea! How about we plonk a character in the movie who represents the gaze?" then, uh-uh... But the demon still really neatly fits all the criteria for Mr. Male Gaze cipher-of-the-year.

His camera is a function of himself - and what does he do? He kills. The camera objectifies/imprisons it's "contents", dissecting them/replaying them/penetrating them for Fred/Pete's pleasure (remember, the camera literally is these guy's internal "gaze" [they're blokes and this is what they see]). Everything within the lense is petrified - transfixed by lust and rage.... A man's lust and rage - specifically Pete and Fred's lust and rage.

And if you really believe the personal hell of Pete/Fred fails to segue into the general problems surrounding depictions of women in the media, and how they are "looked at", then, I dunno..... Lost Highway is definitely concerned w/ the point at which male lust intersects w/ the female, specifically in relation to cinema. The camera and its contents being one of the most highly charged symbols within the film, it's important to unpack it a bit more than "Hey, these are just emotionally charged memories."
 
 
videodrome
16:17 / 25.04.02
I disagree, because the camera is the thing that Fred fears most. It's not a typical Mulvey-esque representation of male lust/impotence/rage - this is not Rear Window and it's not Peeping Tom. It's much more like The Conversation. The camera is the only thing that tells Fred what reality is, and that's what he's desperately trying to get away from. He doesn't use the camera to replay the things he's done as a means of satisfying his lust and rage - the camera in this instance isn't fantasy. Anytime you see a camera, it's a signal that what you're seeing happened. Fred killed Renee and he killed Dick Lauraunt, the guy she was sleeping with. We see the empty house - his admission of what his life is, not his fantasy. By that rationale, the projected pornography is Fred's admission that Renee willingly slept with someone else. He fantasizes that she was forced into it, but he knows that's not the truth. Lynch and Gifford have turned the camera symbol around - it's not a tool to capture the objects of Fred's gaze, but rather his own imprisonment in his weaknesses.

By some of the argument above, yes - the camera can be seen as a tool of Fred's lust/rage, because it represents him acting out those impulses. But the fact that Fred is so desperately trying to get away from those acts says to me that the camera is also more than a simplistic camera=cock appraoch.

As for the subtext of the film re: the media's gaze, I agree. There's a criticism there of the American appraoch to idealized women, and a great deal of looking down upon how we are trapped in it.
 
 
rizla mission
16:35 / 25.04.02
ooh, Cameron's interpretation works just too well.. and the stuff Runce is saying is fascinating..

So what do the videos at the start of the film - the one's that may be interpretted as intrusions of reality upon the guy's fantasy - have in common with the videos in the latter part of the film, the freaky porn films? I think if there was any cohesive one-dimensional explanation then they'd kind of represent the same thing, but, hmm, what the hell am I talking about?

The line about the dog - I just took that as another of the many small instances of strangeness that go together to make up the larger strangeness .. y'know, like, in any other film the dog would have been mentioned again or something, and here you spend a few minutes wondering "why the line about the dog? What did that have to do with anything?" Just a bit of casual tampering with narrative conventions and audience expectation in the cause of general uneasiness, as we say here at Rizla film school. Or maybe Lynch was just being annoyed by a noisy dog at the time - it's his house, after all..

One of the bits that I thought was most important was towards the start, the creepy section in the house, when Bill Pullman disappears into the darkness, and for a minute or two the film goes very murky, and then he re-emerges, looking very threatening indeed. Maybe it's just horror movie cliche speaking, but that immediately made me think 'he's changed, he's been taken over by something, or he's become evil, or he's made some dark decision/deal in the darkness'..
 
 
Cherry Bomb
18:53 / 25.04.02
What about the striptease done at gunpoint? It's a very erotic striptease, and yet the whole time Alice is doing that it's because she has a gun pointed at her. Gun as camera? Or Fred's own fantasies about Renee/Alice and eroticization of her coupled with violent memories of what actually happened? Or something different entirely?
 
 
cusm
19:36 / 25.04.02
As per my ramblings in the Mullhand Drive thread, that which is idelic is of dream. the less realistic and more iconic, the more likely it exists on the imaginary plane. With that in mind, the scene with the murder, where the guy's head splits on the glass table, that had to be real. Why? It was so unimpressively realistic, and unromantic. Wierd, but only in an unexpected way. Frank looks on in shock at it, not expecting that. Its a powerful scene, one that stays with his memory even during fantasy. He can't get away from that one.
 
 
videodrome
01:06 / 26.04.02
CB, I think that gun as camera is really reaching...what would the meaning be there? As I said before, I think it's Fred fantasizing that Renee was forced into sleeping with other people. I don't even think she was necessarily a prostitute or porn star - that's more Fred fantasy/justification, so that he could fantasize about 'rescuing' her, giving her a reason to like him again. The more I see the film, the more I think that the powerful Mr. Eddy and uber-slutty Renee are creations of Fred's mind - there's probably no gang boss or creepy porno syndicate in Fred's 'real' world.
 
 
The Dadaist
03:26 / 26.04.02
Thank you Cameron, thanks you people for the interpretations.

Note: In the porn films you could see Marilyn Manson.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:27 / 26.04.02
Vid: according to Mulvey the thing the male fears the most is the gaze turned upon himself.

And, really, I just don't accept that the camera only records events that "really happened".

Errr, example: Andy's house - movie of alice being fucked from behind. You think that "really happened", do you? C'mon, it's clearly gratuitous, wank-fantasy stuff. It's unrelenting gaze-shit. Alright, you CAN believe it reeeeally haaaaappened if you want to, but I don't.
That's not a flesh and blood women on the screen (Alice and Renee aren't flesh and blood - they're constructed out of desire. We only catch fleeting glimpses of the fleshy, 3d person beneath the fantasy ). At least I hope not.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:29 / 26.04.02
And of course the camera is a gun.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:38 / 26.04.02
I love this debate. I love David Lynch. I'm giving him Lost Highway-style, vid-camera sex right now.

I'm all the way in his "house".
 
 
videodrome
10:20 / 26.04.02
Errr, example: Andy's house - movie of alice being fucked from behind. You think that "really happened", do you? C'mon, it's clearly gratuitous, wank-fantasy stuff. It's unrelenting gaze-shit. Alright, you CAN believe it reeeeally haaaaappened if you want to, but I don't.

Fer crissakes Runce, read the post.

I said this represents Fred knowing she willingly slept with someone else. I didn't say it represents her getting buggered in a porn film.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:34 / 26.04.02
Sorry. But it still appears really obvious to me that he enjoys looking at this stuff - that there's a sexual kick to it. I dunno, I think yr resisting this stuff just for the sake of it. If we take the phrase "male gaze" out of equation how does it look then?
 
 
The Natural Way
10:42 / 26.04.02
Another thing - yeah, he's scared of the camera, but it's his weapon. I see no reason why the camera can't represent his prison and his fantasies, both - I mean, aren't they the same thing?
 
 
videodrome
20:06 / 26.04.02
Runce:

Am I resisting Mulvey's POV just for the sake of resisting? I'm not sure. I'll allow that I may be, becuase I think her appraoch works very well in certain situations, and is complete bollocks otherwise. I don't trust her because she's got a political agenda. I'm not at all a political animal, so I'd prefer to keep my politics and art as seperate as possible, thank you very much. So in that sense, perhaps I doth protest too much.

In respect to LH, I think there's a lot to be gained from what we've been doing here. It's a film that seems to lend itself perfectly to the position you're taking, but to me it just doesn't feel right, in a way that I can't articualte particularly well. Or at least, not at anything other than great length.

I'll certainly concede that Lynch (or more likely, Gifford) was quite aware of the potential to look at LH from Mulvey's perspective, and took some steps to jump ahead a bit. In that sense it's quite the post-modern film, anticipating and pre-reacting to the criticism it'll generate. There's a number of elements that make me say this, but I'll boil it down to the simple behaviour of Renee and Alice. Renee is quite shy, wary of being looked at, even though she's visibly fetishized from the outset (the shoes!). She hangs partially hidden around corners and visibly reacts to the cop on the roof looking down through the skylight. The only time she seems at all comfortable is at Andy's party, where she can blend into the crowd. Alice, by contrast, is all about being looked at from the outset. She sits in the car knowing that Pete sees her, performs for Mr Eddy, allows herself to be filmed, etc. And yes, there is a sexual kick to all of Alice.

Camera: prison and fantasies? Definitely worth talking about. The nagging suspicion that I have is that there's two layers of fantasy that are at odds within Fred. The first is to have a real life with Renee and the second layer is that he hadn't killed her. How much of Alice is what Fred wants and how much is what he has to turn her into as justification for his act? Right now I'm not sure.

Overall, I'm more interested by a few other things that have been hinted at in this thread, which have to do with identity and it's reliance upon memory. That's the angle from which I initially appraoched Lost Highway and is what I continue to find most intriguing. The sexual politics are dull to me, largely because I've given myself over to a consistently stylized/fetishized approach to women in his work.
 
 
videodrome
20:12 / 26.04.02
D'oh!

Should add to the third paragraph above:
It seems to me that the depiction of Renee is very much aware of Mulvey, largely because of the conflict between her behaviour and fetishized appearance. So there's a movement from awareness of the potential of the gaze to full manipulation of it, which are both implied but not discussed in "Visual Pleasure...". I'd love to know what Renee really looks/acts like, because I think even her inital depiction is filtered through Fred.
 
 
PatrickMM
05:59 / 22.02.04
I saw the film again yesterday, for the second time, and I was really feeling it this time. Here's my view of what happened.

None of the movie is "real." The opening with the endlessly repeating road is a visual representation of the Mystery Man's lines about the man waiting to be killed, but never knowing when it's going to come. Fred is going down this road, without the knowledge of when he'll be killed, it looks the same, and goes nowhere, but he has to keep going down it.

However, in reality, Fred is actually waiting to be electrocuted. Much like Mulholland Drive, these fantasies take place in the moment before the protagonist dies.

So, the first chunk of the movie is the first fantasy Fred creates. This is based mainly on his real home life. He has his happy marriage at first, but it starts to come apart, becuase of his suspicions that Renee is cheating on him, just as it did in real life. The party is a magnification of his suspicion, as his wife's friend becomes the person she's having an affair with.

He can no longer perform in bed, becuase the fantasy is dead. He sees the tape, which is his real memory intruding in to the fantasy explicitly. So, this fantasy gets worse, the real world starts to intrude, and he winds up in a cell, basically back where he was in reality.

We see the burning house in reverse motion, become whole again.
And this brings us into the second, more complex fantasy sequence. Having accepted that Renee is an adulterer, Fred/Pete decides to cast himself in the role of the person she will go with.

I'm not sure exactly where the Gary Busey family comes from, but I'd imagine that Fred is more comfortable with Renee being with someone she wasn't actually with in real life. And also, I'd imagine that that simple life holds some lure for Fred after the ordeal he's been through. At first, he imagines himself into the relationship with Sheila, and creates his bunch of friends. But, gradually Renee comes back in to his life in the form of Alice. Like in real life, and the first dream, he finds himself drawn to her, and, being a fantasy, he ends up in the affair with her.

In addition to Pete as an alter ego, Mr. Eddy in this segment of the film serves as something of an alter ego for Fred. Fred is the raging, protective husband, whose wife always slips away from him. Fred's fear of his own rage is reflected in the tailgating scene. Mr. Eddy is drawn to Pete because they are aspects of the same person.

However, the fantasy starts to corrode. Rather than just being the trophy wife of Mr. Eddy, Alice's past starts to come to the fore. The strip at gunpoint is Fred's fear of what Alice used to do, and Dick Laurant/Eddy and Andy are the people he fears she was associated with.

I'm of the idea that the entire porn and gunpoint strip thing is an exaggerated version of what really happened. I'm not even sure if she really did cheat on him, but he blows it way out of proportion. He assumes the worst about her, that she was involved in these really bizarre porn projects, and not only that, she liked it. Once he realizes this, the fantasy Alice is dead, and as a result, she has been removed from the picture.

Sidenote, this part of the film reminded me quite a bit of The Invisibles, and the Quimper porn videos. Eddy's creepiness in creating the porn is how I imagine Quimper in the last issue of volume I.

So, Fred goes back to the source of the fantasy, the house in the desert. He has sex with Alice, and at this point, the fantasy completely falls apart, and in the place where the construction of the Pete personality began, it falls apart, and Fred is back to his old self. Since Alice has become Renee, there is no need for Fred to be Pete.

The end of the film represents Fred going through some of the loose ends of his mind. I see the Lost Highway hotel as representative of his mind, and behind each door are all his fears, and problems.

Before he can move on, Fred must kill Dick Laurant, and symbolically get revenge for his wife's philandering. So, he kills him, and then goes back to his house, to complete the loop. Without Dick Laurant, he really has no purpose anymore, and with the end bearing down on him, he begins to drive, and it's on the lost highway that he is finally electrocuted, and his journey ends.

The thing I'm still working out is the place of the Mystery Man in all this. I see him as an ultra-dimensional entity that is helping Fred come to terms with what has happened, as a result allowing him to die. At the party, he instills Fred with the sense of paranoia that ultimately leads to the first fantasy being destroyed. He's there at the end to help Fred question his identity, and then he's there when he kills Dick Laurant, which is the final thing he has to do to move on. He's possibly an element of his mind that is designed to make him realize the truth, and come to terms with death.

So, excellent film. A very challenging film, but in the end I prefer Mulholland Drive, which feels like the perfection of the dream/fantasy concept, and then wrapped in a much cooler exterior. The psuedo 50's stuff is more interesting than the slightly more generic ambience of LH. Still, it's a phenomenal film, and quite underrated.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:54 / 22.02.04
The various psychological explanations of what's going on in this movie all work, but I dunno if you can really leave out the supernatural element - I've not watched this for a while, but the last time I did, it struck me that the mystery man was probably Satan, this malevolent force that, once you've started speaking to him, y'know, invited him in... well it's not gonna be good. Which would go just as well with the male rage/male gaze thing, but which I'm still not sure would entirely fit with where Dave's head's at these days - Since Twin Peaks, he seems to have been working on material that resists a strictly Freudian analysis - JG Ballard on Blue Velvet was exactly right, with the centre of the story as going through the various stages of oedipal dilemnas, but after that Lynch looks to have been aiming for something a bit more other. M-land Drive seems polluted with demons.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:42 / 23.02.04
Patricia Arquette is really hot in this movie. (I thought it would be fun to counterbalance all of the detailed analysis in this thread with that very primal thought.)
 
 
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01:49 / 06.08.07
Completely agreed Finder, she's beautiful.

I don't like it or dislike it, just thought it was pretty insane, but there was something about it... That guy who was at his house, etc, was really creepy for one thing, (I don't usually get creeped out by chars like him, but he was fucked up.) and the music throughout the film was brilliant! I'm not sure if I've ever seen a film with such solid music all the way through.

The way I'm trying to abstractly figure it is (it might be hard bearing with me on this one, so sorry if that's the case.):

Mystery Man/Creepy Guy...was sometype of Demon and Alice was the sister of Renee. Alice knows that Fred is fucked up and so she gets the help of Mystery Man/Creepy Guy to watch Fred. Fred then kills Renee so Creepy properly goes to town on the whole situation, and swaps Fred with Pete in prison afer he's been caught. Why? Well....(this is kind of abstract remember, I just have to set it in sometype of framework because it's so odd.) he merges Fred and Pete, and Alice then meets Pete at the garage. (Pete goes mad with the music he hears in the garage that's like what Fred plays, because it's bringing Fred back through and he can't stand it + it's not time for Fred to come back and do his bit yet.) Laurent kind of owns Alice and she wants out, so she uses Fred/Pete to kill him, and then goes off with Creepy after taking Laurent and Andy (head stuck in coffee table guy.) out and probably a load of their stuff to sell and make money off.

Why not just have Creepy kill Laurent and Andy? Well, so that there can be a story, and also because Fred is so in love with Alice that he goes to the level of killing Andy and stealing his stuff, and maybe Creepy sympathizes with Fred and allows him to see who Renee was having an affair with. So Fred and Pete both have their uses when it comes to killing Laurent and Andy. Creepy could've done all the hard work himself, but he's Creepy Guy, so he uses others to do his work for him.

I know, that's just fucking odd, but so is the film! I doubt I'll ever find out the true story so that can make my mind settle a bit instead.
 
 
This Sunday
02:40 / 06.08.07
I'm still putting in a vote for can't hack it, get's new life, can't hack it. Simple, elegant, dooms Fed to failure, while giving him moments of happiness.

Course, really, it's about that dog. Whose dog is that, anyway?
 
 
Spaniel
07:47 / 06.08.07
Te, have you read Cam's interpretation a page back? I think it neatly encapsulates what the film is about - it's certainly the interpretation that I came to after watching the film a couple of times - and I think it's the interpretation that is taken as the basis for most of debate and discussion over the last page.
 
 
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10:46 / 06.08.07
Nope, I missed that. The good old 'didn't read the thread' problem. That was an awesome explanation, thanks. I don't know how close it is to what it was supposed to be, but it's a good one. I like the bit at the end aswell, where his face distorting and getting messed up is the point where he's actually in the leccy chair getting put to death.

It's probably going to be a good type of mindset to have ready when I start going through more of his films aswell, thanks again.
 
 
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11:14 / 06.08.07
Ahaha! Before I'm done here, I just found one of my fave bits on youtube!

"I want you to get a fuckin' driver's manual, and I want you to study that mathahfackaahh!!!"

That actor is awesome.
 
  

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