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President Speaks / US Reaction

 
 
netbanshee
23:07 / 20.09.01
Well...it just started Stateside...anyone have anything to say...he already said he's speaking for his citizens...
 
 
The Damned Yankee
23:42 / 20.09.01
Funny, I don't remember being consulted.
 
 
netbanshee
23:50 / 20.09.01
So...the whole thing was a bit stern. And he spoke of the fascism of others...wanting their ways over others...seems a bit familiar...

Hope the US shakes hands before it starts shooting...
 
 
Jack Fear
00:50 / 21.09.01
Mother.
Fucker.

I'm horrified.

That gimlet-eyed weasel burned his bridges with the Taliban in no uncertain terms, huh?

And that list of demands--things the Taliban probably couldn't deliver is they wanted to--might as well ask for a large pizza with everything while you're at it...

At least now we know what he wants. He wants a ground war, a shooting war. He must, or he wouldn't have put forth such a flimsy pretext, such a patently impracticable list of demands.

Bastard. Bastard bastard bastard. And the camera pans over to those smug, pompous fucks Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice, smiling and nodding... do they know? Do they have ANY idea? have they read ANY history? have they NO memories?

I'm no Taliban apologist, but for fuck's sake--they are rulers: how can the US government expect them to not act like rulers?

We're going to decimate a nation, a nation that is already desperately poor and injured, because its provisional government had the temerity to act like the leaders of a sovereign state.

Allah Bless America.
 
 
surblimity
03:18 / 21.09.01
my god.

i'm simultaneously terrified, disgusted and outraged.

didn't watch it, but read the transcript... i mean, i guess i was to be expected, but still... damn.

sorry i'm not so eloquent, i'm still in shock.

one of the most disturbing points was that bush appointed Pennsylvania governor Tom Ridge to the position of "Secretary of Homeland Security". Tom Ridge, who has sent insane amounts of people to pennsylvania's death row (see the PA abolitionists website for info on that) , who helped guarantee that the protesters against the republican national convention in philadelphia last summer were utterly (and illegally) squashed... how horrid.

the transcript of bush's address
 
 
Voidmind
03:55 / 21.09.01
I don't think everyone is paying attention... the warmongers are paying attention to "Islam/Taliban as the enemy", the peaceniks are paying attention to "war on Afganistan"

Perhaps I am the voice of Dissent in a forum full of people who disagree with everything (Anything?) Bush is doing

If we do nothing, we invite criticism form people, if we do everything we invite the same

The facts of the matter are, we will invite criticism no matter what we do

I think everyone would be well advised to stop for a few moments and watch/wait/learn and find out what we are doing before you all jump down our throats

We are not out to destroy Islam, we are not out to Bomb Afganistan into dust.. we are after Terrorists... plain and simple... I for one am behind the movement.

If that means we go after the IRA next, so be it...

Oh and before I go... I've already heard the "US is guilty of it as well rants" and answered them as well

Just My opinion folks
 
 
autopilot disengaged
05:15 / 21.09.01
quote:I don't think everyone is paying attention... the warmongers are paying attention to "Islam/Taliban as the enemy", the peaceniks are paying attention to "war on Afganistan"

the main reason i'm focusng on an attack on Afghanistan, void, is 'cause the terms involved are less dubious.

if the next stage of this campaign is to send in forces to Afghanistan, to all intents and purposes that is what it will be - regardless of what they call it, no matter what larger operation it is a part of...

on the other hand, the 'war' on 'terrorism' is full of words that resist easy definition, and can indeed, be redefined at will.

and he has now condemned the Taleban, refused their efforts at diplomacy, and sketched up an ugly caricture to act as a target. so, they're going down.

i hope you keep posting, void. i disagree with you on virtually everything, but it generates debate.
 
 
jUne, a sunshiny month
05:58 / 21.09.01
quote: We are not out to destroy Islam, we are not out to Bomb Afganistan into dust.. we are after Terrorists... plain and simple... I for one am behind the movement.

yeah, sure. and it's the price to pay to kill a few thousands afghans/muslims who are already fucked 24/7 by the talibans, right ?

come on, guy. we cannot stop the problem by re-shooting at them. i know it's hard for us people. sure it is. but after bombing innocents (you know that population of afghanistan isn't just taliban filled, right ?), the jihad will be back and not happy with all of us, which means we can wait for some more answers. and bush will do it again, and extremist from the other side again, and so go bush, etc...

it's a war we see beginning here.
and nothing is more stupid than killing people cause they killed some of us.

it could be stay longer this way, and no doubt that stupids patriots who got so much control, will, and money in the states will play the game. and no doubt that the extremists/terrorists will do it again.
but like your typical afghanistan guy, or like the brained citizen of america (not so obvious, i gotta say what i feel), i'm don't want this.

no way i'm down with it.
how can i be ? fuck.
 
 
jUne, a sunshiny month
05:59 / 21.09.01
quote: We are not out to destroy Islam, we are not out to Bomb Afganistan into dust.. we are after Terrorists... plain and simple... I for one am behind the movement.

yeah, sure. and it's the price to pay to kill a few thousands afghans/muslims who are already fucked 24/7 by the talibans, right ?

come on, guy. we cannot stop the problem by re-shooting at them. i know it's hard for us people. sure it is. but after bombing innocents (you know that population of afghanistan isn't just taliban filled, right ?), the jihad will be back and not happy with all of us, which means we can wait for some more answers. and bush will do it again, and extremist from the other side again, and so go bush, etc...

it's a war we see beginning here.
and nothing is more stupid than killing people cause they killed some of us.

it could be stay longer this way, and no doubt that stupids patriots who got so much control, will, and money in the states will play the game. and no doubt that the extremists/terrorists will do it again.
but like your typical afghanistan guy, or like the brained citizen of america (not so obvious, i gotta say what i feel), i'm don't want this.

no way i'm down with it.
how can i be ? fuck.
 
 
Magic Mutley
07:35 / 21.09.01
quote: we are after Terrorists... plain and simple...

This "war" is already killing innocent Afghans.

Afghanistan facing humanitarian disaster

quote: Villagers told Mr Nutt they had got through almost all their food supplies and had even eaten seeds which should have been planted for next year's crop. Large families were sharing one piece of bread a day. They could not leave because there was no transport. Aid agencies had hoped to get supplies to villages like Barkhol before they were cut off but the US threat means that this will almost certainly be impossible.
Mr Nutt also visited the bleak Maslakh camp near Herat. There it is estimated that up to 40 people are dying every day, many because they arrive too weak to survive after trying to hold out in their villages.


Excuse me for quoting this article again...

[ 21-09-2001: Message edited by: Wheaty Goodness ]
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
08:27 / 21.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Voidmind:

If that means we go after the IRA next, so be it...


You got a time machine?

Then we could go after those pesky ANC 'folks' as well.

Cheeky response, I know, but the whole 'war on terrorism' is riddled with contradictions which have been highlighted all over this board.

[ 21-09-2001: Message edited by: yawn ]
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:39 / 21.09.01
Although I disagree with the tenor and substance of much of Bush's speech, I must say that for the first time EVER I was impressed with his delivery and the writing of the speech. For once he did not trip over his own tongue, or sound like he was reading someone else's words. He sounded eloquent and passionate. This was clearly his hour, the moment of his glory before he condemns us all to living in fear and uncertainty.

His demands to the Taliban were foolish but unsurprising. This administration has only one negotiating technique, brinksmanship. Bombing Afghanistan would be the most unproductive and stupid thing that the US ever did.

But as a course of National Policy, the man's hands are tied. To not act is to acknowledge, even tacitly, that causing the deaths of nearly 7000 people is the way to force a nation to do the bidding of a small minority of global citizens. A nation, if it wishes to remain whole, can't do that.

I'd like to think that the administration is not entering into war willy-nilly, but is fully cognizant of the dangers, both to American (and Afghan) lives and reputations. They must know that they are entering an unwinnable war, as surely as the terrorists who flew those planes into the Trade Center knew they were winning a pyrrich victory. That act of violence and the coming acts are both in the service of the principle of sovreignty. If there was a way to eliminate control of territory, information, and commodities in the world, these types of actions would not be seen by many as necessary and righteous. But until then, we will have thousands of willing martyrs to all faiths, secular and religious, that attempt to control human destiny.
 
 
Voidmind
10:43 / 21.09.01
Which may be another point to bring up, misinformation

Has anyone thought to themselves yet.. MAYBE just maybe we won't start bombing?

Bush has asked virtually everyone for help in this, not financial, not military, but Intelligence (Obvious comment time) just perhaps he plans on seeking the target out before blowing up an already devistated country.

Of course I could be wrong, I readily admit we're a warlike race, but perhaps this "war unlike you have seen before" will be what we hope, "fairly non violent"

Obvious contradictions aside, that is what i hope for..

I'm all for a war on Terrorism, if it is indeed the goal to wipe out that problem

On a side note: Did anyone catch Art Bell last night?

VERY insightful

if not you can hear it from artbell.com
 
 
The Packard Goose
12:54 / 21.09.01
So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but basically what the President said was that any country that doesn't allow the US to send armed troops into its borders, at the discretion of the US, will be considered a terrorist state and enemy of freedom?

What a crock of gooey-warm sophistry that was. Good speechwriters, juxtaposing lots of patriotic buzzwords and obvious emotional ploys in an attempt to get Americans to react with their guts instead of their minds. And todd...no offense, but I disagree. The squinty-eyed, pursed-lipped Bush looked as if he had been practicing this speech over and over again for an entire day. Which he probably had been.

Look left, pause, look right, pause, say something snuggly about Britain, look at Tony Blair (he's the guy sitting by your wife, so just look at Laura, okay?), etc. I found myself longing for Reagan, fer cryin' out loud! Say what you will about Ronnie, at least he could act!

And anyone else notice how that Texas drawl made "terror" come out like "terra"? The US is at war with Terra, folks! Can't say y'all weren't warned! Terra Firma, Terra Incognita, whatever, just so's we can shoot sumthin.

And why can this President not get the concept of seperation of church and state?
"In all that is to come, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America."
Basically admitting that it's gonna take a miracle for this administration to act wisely?

Somebody tell this Christian to read Matthew 6:5-8.

And somebody tell this United States President that if he and Billy Graham and Opus Dei and Dr. James Leininger and their ilk want to solidify the power of this Christian Fundamentalist American Church they seem hellbent on establishing, they should do it on their own time.

I am disgusted. George W. Bush illegally obtains the Office of the Presidency. He then deliberately and arrogantly indicates with every action of his administration that the rest of the world can fuck off. When two members of al Queda are believed to have entered the US, the CIA passes the buck to the FBI, which passes the buck to the INS, which says "Ooops" after 9/11. Through his own actions and through the incompetence of the administration he leads, Bush played a crucial role in what happened last Tuesday.

And now he has the audacity to pretend he's the guy with the plan, that he's the wronged party somehow? Bullshit. His warning to the world reminds me of the way he and his party have been wiping their asses with the US Constitution lately:

"You won't voluntarily surrender your 4th Amendment rights and submit to an illegal search? Well, then, you must be hiding something! We now have Probable Cause to consider you a criminal and detain you while we look for something incriminating in every square inch of your property and person."

"You won't voluntarily surrender your rights to self-government as a soverign nation and allow armed U.S. troops to do what we want within your borders? Well, then, you must be hiding something! Terrorist-harborers! We now have the authority (from our Congress, NATO, and the UN) to kick yer ass six ways to Sunday, heathen-bastard-enemies of God and What's Right!"

And he has the balls to invoke the names of Freedom, Liberty and Justice while he does this.

For shame, Mister Bush.
 
 
Hush
13:04 / 21.09.01
War against terrorism YESSSSSSS!!!!!

KILL OLIVER NORTH NOW

He is the Bin Ladden of Nicaragua, funding and promoting war against an elected government.


And a lot easier to find.

[ 21-09-2001: Message edited by: Luke Wing ]
 
 
grant
18:02 / 21.09.01
Ollie North - forgot about him.

Heheheh.

I actually thought the speech was a bit of what we needed, and a bit of what we didn't.

I was immensely pleased that he started out talking about Muslim-Americans and framed the violence in non-Arabic terms.

I am praying the bits about the Taliban were a negotiating ploy.

I'm also glad that he at least paid lip service to investigation and police work as opposed to bombing the fuck out of Afghani citizens. I'm afraid it was only lip service, but still.

The "war on Terra" thing didn't escape me either.
 
 
Planet B
18:17 / 21.09.01
The reason the "War on Terra" is as unwinnable as the War on Drugs is that the US DOESN'T want to stop terrorism. If they really wanted to stop terrorism, they would have gone along with the idea for an International Criminal Court years ago. The reason they don't want to do that is that it wouldn't be controlled by US interests and would provide ample opportunity for the rest of the world to actually take Ollie North and Henry Kissinger to court for their terrorism and crimes against humanity. It's just another example of the US prescribing for the rest of the world what it refuses to take itself.
 
 
Voidmind
18:17 / 21.09.01
quote:Originally posted by The Packard Goose:
[QB]So, correct me if I'm wrong here, but basically what the President said was that any country that doesn't allow the US to send armed troops into its borders, at the discretion of the US, will be considered a terrorist state and enemy of freedom?
[QB]


There is something to be said about speaking for someone else, taking things and running with them, and putting things in other peoples mouths...

Hmmm warm and gooey indeed
 
 
Analogues On
18:24 / 21.09.01
<rant warning, rant warning>

Infinite Justice TM! Brought to you by our Sponsors of Global Homogeneity. Join the Global Union of America! Buy our products, our laws, our protection.

The US’s subconscious product-placement colonial attitude to the Earth has suddenly become something more tangible and fearful. Where once we were sold the dreams of America, we are now being force-fed American Law. Where once America funded wars, coups and revolutions overseas – backing private armies and sponsoring strategic allies, we are now led to believe that American Law has become Global Law, which is itself the earthly reflection of God’s Infinite Justice. And in Britain Blair’s government is buying into Bush’s Empire on a scale that would make Queen Victoria choke on her morning spliff.

In a single act of martyrdom, America has not only forgiven itself of its past transgressions (of which, let us not forget, there were many “terrorist”-style actions) but has also formed the Inclusive Church of Global Righteousness. Does Bush see himself as a purported Leader of Freedom or a Biblical Vessel of Vengeful Death?

I was as horrified as anyone on the 11th and in no way advocate the recent events in NY/ Washington, yet I think that Bush’s reactions are not so much Olympian ideal as Stygian pact. In our new world order it seems that if you are not with us (U.S.), you are against us. Those who are not our allies are our enemies. This is the polar message Bush wants the world to hear. It is no longer a question of international support or global sympathy; it is a question of Good vs Evil.

Bush has all but donned the Sword of Moral Rectitude, taken up the Shield of Might and shrieked “ I AM THE LAW!” like the lil’ junior daddy’s boy he always was (hey, anyone remember George Snr’s little ruckus in the Gulf? – must be something in Barbara’s cooking)

And if I see George Jnr in my little red shorts and JLA cape once more…..
 
 
The Packard Goose
18:55 / 21.09.01
quote: There is something to be said about speaking for someone else, taking things and running with them, and putting things in other peoples mouths...



You mean Bush's speaking for an American people that didn't vote him into office, taking the idea that Osama bin Laden is the culprit and running to build the "proof" of his guilt on that initial assumption, and putting the statement "We are with the terrorists" into the mouths of every country who is not with the US on this?

I couldn't agree more, Voidmind!
 
 
Cherry Bomb
19:18 / 21.09.01
There is also the chilling thought that "this will be where sometimes we'll see the battles fought on TV... and sometimes that battles we win will never be known.."

WHAT THE BLOODY HELL DOES THAT MEAN?!??

It's kinda like, "Well, we'd LIKE to give proof, but if we give proof, then those terrorists will git us!"

That's rather terrifying, IMHO..
 
 
Magic Mutley
09:19 / 22.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Voidmind:
If that means we go after the IRA next, so be it...


Actually there is a peace process. It might have it's problems, but it's moving.

The idea that an outside agency can walk in and fix the problem is at best simplistic.

After 30 years of violence, the majority of people involved have realised that waging a "war" against terrorism only continues the cycle of violence. The way to counter terrorism is to remove it's root causes. The way to do this is through dialogue.
 
 
The Damned Yankee
09:31 / 22.09.01
quote:I will not forget the wound to our country and those who inflicted it. I will not yield, I will not rest, I will not relent in waging this struggle for freedom and security for the American people.

Bravo, George. Tell you what. YOU do the fighting. Personally, I mean. Here's a gun. Afghanistan is that way. Godspeed.

You can smell the patriotism around here. No one had better dare even think about saying something that might upset or offend. It's finally happened. I knew it was coming, what with the piles of lawsuits being submitted over the years: America has become a nation solely inhabited by victims. To question the rightness of this coming war (I've resigned myself to its inevitability) is to spit in the eye of America and God (two at once and both in the eye! That's good spittin'!) and to mock the victims' pain. The media, which was supposed to be our Fourth Estate, the last, best defense against tyranny, has once again proven itself to be a hollow sham, a lapdog picking up the crumbs dropped by its master and swallowing them without question.

Somewhere in space and time, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and Benjamin Franklin are hanging their heads.
 
 
Analogues On
09:35 / 22.09.01
Wheaty Goodness, I posted this in another thread a few days ago:

<And incidentally the ongoing situation in Ulster (which may once have had a whiff of legitimacy – but has since become increasingly reactionary, regressive and redundant) also stems from war mongering, fundamentalist, macho bullshit, and is prolonged by an inability to clearly reason, compromise and forgive.>

You are right in that at least we have a “process” in Northern Ireland, no matter how flawed. There is at least a (small) ray of hope that our politicians might be able to agree on a suitable and peaceful solution for everyone.
Hopefully before we see US troops on the streets of Ulster!?!
 
 
The Damned Yankee
09:35 / 22.09.01
I don't think even Bush is stupid enough to get involved in Northern Ireland.

Then again . . . he IS pretty damn dumb . . .
 
 
Analogues On
09:35 / 22.09.01
Listen, DY when the most powerful man in the world comes off with rhetoric like:

< We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. The hour is coming when America will act, and you will make us proud, >

I am not going to question his commitment to his premise. He is a fanatical nut.
 
 
The Damned Yankee
09:35 / 22.09.01
Touche'.
 
 
Analogues On
09:35 / 22.09.01
Apologies DY if that came across as aggressive. I agree with you that Bush is a dumb fuck, but I think that he is a dumb fuck working a politically smart plan:

<I know there are struggles ahead and dangers to face. But this country will define our times, not be defined by them. As long as the United States of America is determined and strong, this will not be an age of terror. This will be an age of liberty here and across the world.
Great harm has been done to us. We have suffered great loss. And in our grief and anger we have found our mission and our moment.>

In the current political climate, with US emotions running so high, and with Bush so eager to leave his shitty skid-mark on the y-fronts of history, I really do think that he is capable of almost anything.
The last thing that Northern Ireland needs after 30 years of killing is for that pin-prick to impose US style “justice”: not that I think that he would necessarily carpet-bomb a nation of white capitalist Christians – sorry - a “free democratic nation”.
He would probably just pressurise the UK to pull government funding, push deadlines onto an already tenuous peace process or flood the streets with more troops. Just what we need.
Of course if he could just pressurize Americans from funding our terrorists…..

I just feel that Bush’s age of so-called “liberty” might be one where the US and their allies will control people’s access to freedom, information, trade and justice. Where anyone not with the government is against the government and is to be suspected. Where our friends are rewarded, our enemies are destroyed.

<We have seen their kind before. They're the heirs of all the murderous ideologies of the 20th century. By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism and totalitarianism.>

Sound familiar, George? Touché indeed.

[ 22-09-2001: Message edited by: RedRunningLord ]
 
 
The Damned Yankee
00:54 / 23.09.01
A few days before the attack, I was listening to some radio commentators discuss the possibility of a "Pax Americana". I regarded the idea with wariness to say the least.

Now, with the big Mobilization to Nowhere, the thought is truly starting to turn my stomach. The American Government can't be trusted with that kind of power. No government can, in my opinion.
 
  
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