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Shoot - Online Comics Club

  
 
moriarty
18:14 / 21.04.02


Shoot. Written by Warren Ellis. Pencilled by Phil Jimenez.

This issue of Hellblazer was never published due to concerns that it was a tad touchy in light of then current events. Warren Ellis was outraged that DC shitcanned his book, and left Hellblazer immediately.

Discuss.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
18:32 / 21.04.02
WOW
i never saw that nor heard of it before, it left me kinda cold
ill need to not be at work to write more
 
 
Utopia
18:37 / 21.04.02
i think this was a very good way to really get this club moving, looking at what should be print comics online... i understand why dc refused to not publish it, but it is unfortunate that the web will be the only place to see it (for now anyway). the story may have been a little...preachy near the end, but ellis' take on why these shootings happen and the general state of youth today is interesting, to say the least. while this doesn't change my opinion on why this type of things happen, it at least looks at it from another point of view. excellent contribution, moriarty. i look foward to an engaging doscussion about it.
 
 
sleazenation
20:47 / 21.04.02
Actually after all the controversy i was kind of disappointed when i read it - its not that good either as a piece of polemic or sa short story- which is odd since that tends to be ellis' strong point especially in planetary, but here it is all so unconvincing- characterisation seems paper thin- the horror of the kids actions just coesn't come accross...
 
 
Steve Block
06:30 / 22.04.02
Hmmm. Okay, my firt thoughts are based basically around the file sizes of the images. Way too big for dial up readers. Okay, I appreciate this wasn't designed for the web and all, but I think if we are discussing online comics, we should at least look at the mechanics and the use the work makes of the medium. I appreciate that's a little unfair in this case, but still, the files are way too big.

Thoughts on the story. Well, I'm still reading but I wanted to get things down before I frget. On page 15, when she says she'd like to bottle it and spray it over every school in the country, isn't she referring to what makes the kids kill? That has me confused.

The phrase child child killings really grated on me, but I figured as she is an official investigator, there'd be an official phrase and she'd use it. But to have it come from Constantine's mouth, that didn't ring right.

Also, page 19, if Constantine drops the h on hook, wouldn't he drop it on having? I appreciate you'd have to have Constantine use the whole phrase Butcher's hook, but the actual vernacular now is butchers.

And the rant at the end of 19 about looking for one thing to blame would work a lot better but for the simple fact that if you took away the guns the kids couldn't shoot each other. I agree with SLeaze here that Ellis is really ducking the issue.

Did anyone find the footage on video came from unrealistic angles. Where were these cameras positioned, inside cars and on top of people's heads?

Okay I finished. I'm at a loss. Was Ellis' whole point the fact that kids are quite happy to die if someone pulls a gun on them? I mean I appreciate the broader point he's making, that the kids have nothing else to live for having been raised by television, but didn't he dismiss that same point earlier on through the mouth of the lead female whose name I have obviously forgotten. When she is arguing with Brian she expresses distaste at the fact that it's to do with upbringing and so on, and yet here Constantine is expounding that very view, yes? Or have I misread it?

I also think the art was a wee bit sloppy here, not just judging camera angles, but that expression on the final panel, it doesn't quite match the above panel. Okay, artistic license and all that, but it's not quite there, at least to me. And I don't think Ellis was quite clear on whether the shoot was said as an acceptance of fate or a willful abandoning of life. This was really clumsy, slightly offensive, I have to say, and I think I can see why DC pulled it. It doesn't actually offer anything to the debate, and seems to be just an attempt to cash in on a tragedy.

I guess the nearest point of comparison would be Don't Like Mondays by Boomtown Rats which tackles a similar subject and yet doesn't seek to explain or justify, just to present. And it is far more shocking, because, as they say, there are no reasons. Ellis forgets that. I really get the feeling that this wasn't written with any clear plot in mind, just that Ellis, for whatever reason, (and yes I have ascribed the need to shock as the reason as I can't think of any other reason), felt the need to comment, but couldn't work out an appropriate response. Which is all well and good, but by doing it as a story rather than a comment piece or, thinking about it, a Transmetropol piece, it doesn't work. this isn't a Constantine story. It's a Spider story. It's in the wrong book. Constantine is out of context here, and it's another reason why it doesn't work. Because there has to be resolution in a Constantine book, surely, that's the nature of the character, and Ellis knows this because he's forced an ending on to it.

I mean, at some point I was waiting for it to be revealed it was a demon, and I was feeling that would have been way too near the mark. But that's the arena Constantine works in, the supernatural. So I guess by not making it supernatural, Ellis is saying sometimnes there are no reasons, so why have Constantine spout some sort of reason that's just as stupid as having a demon do it?

Overall, this just didn't work for me. The first page was shocking, alhough the dialogue was a little clunky, in fact the dialogue was clunky all the way thorugh, and the angle on the first page just doesn't work once you realise you're watching a recording.

I'd be interested to hear if Ellis still stands by this story. He obviously didn't feel strongly enough about it to quit Transmetropol. I really do think this story would have worked much better there, too. I wonder too, if it would have got pulled had it run there? Because it would have been from a completely different angle had Spider been the protagonist.

Have to say the panel layouts were pretty strong, apart from on page 11 where I had trouble following the story and panels. I am still not clear who turns the recorder off and whether the shut up is aimed at the recorder or the man.

Penny, that's her name.

Also, I don't think Ellis explored the possibility that by saying shoot the kid might just be trying to wrest control of the situation. I'd be interested to hear how much research Ellis did for thi story and whether he spoke to people who have had guns pulled on them.

I guess there is also a debate about whether this story should have been pulled. I think there would have been a major stir had this book been published, and I don't think the story made a good enough case for publication against that backdrop in DC's eyes. I can understand that. Myself, if it had been my decision, I'm not sure I would have put it out. Because I just don't think the story deserves it. It doesn't add anything to the debate or even make it's points cohesively. I'm glad I'm not a publisher, because it's a decision I would be loathe to make.
 
 
moriarty
15:04 / 24.04.02
Apologies for the file size, Mr. Block. I'm not well-versed in the ways of the computer so I wasn't aware that this would load slowly for some.

Figuring out what would be a good first pick was pretty tough. I chose this story mainly because Ellis' work is of some interest to many people here, and because of the novelty level of reading a banned story, as can be seen from Elijah's response. The next few choices (if we choose to continue what looks to be an exercise in futility) will be more webcentric.

I'm in agreement that the art is lacklustre, but I never really enjoyed Jimenez' work, or Perez' for that matter. And many things in the story really do make very little sense, especially that comment on page 15 that Steve Block brought up or the magical invisible video camera.

Upon rereading it, I have to admit that I still really like it, both as a piece of short fiction and as a horror comic. During his short run, Ellis tried to take Constantine into the realm of non-supernatural horror, with excellent short pieces on Japanese war criminals and delusional serial killers. I just realized that these last two, as well as Shoot itself, almost completely take place in one setting. That, among other things, is why I disagree that this isn't a good short story. Characterization, settings, action, and even remembering the characters names all take a backseat to telling a creepy little fable. Also, Constantine is presented in the same way he first appeared in Swamp Thing, as a complete enigma, so this being a non-Constantine story is pretty far off the mark.

I liked the idea of tying the school killings in with the Jonestown massacre, it was a nice bit of foreshadowing, and I honestly didn't see the end coming even if the explanation was right under my (and Penny's) face. And the Jonestown transcript was incredibly fucking creepy, though the less than stellar art managed on muddying that up a little.

I'm having a hard time articulating my feelings towards Ellis' viewpoint concerning schoolyard killings. I almost feel as if he isn't really commenting on real world events, but using them as a springboard to just tell a story. The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the shooter would even kill his classmates. If the world is that full of despair then he could just turn the gun on himself. According to this comic, the shooter would be killing his peers out of mercy, not revenge, which seems to be the motive most attributed to these kinds of killings. If that were the case, then almost certainly the kids had some sort of suicide pact going, and wouldn't really have any need to do this in public. That in itself is pretty fucking scary, but it obviously has no bearing on the real world, and isn't touched on in the comic. Either way, I think Ellis was completely off the mark.

I found it fairly easy to reconcile my love of the mechanics for this story and my obvious disbelief for the ideas presented. the main reason I could accept it, and the personal reason I chose this story, is because of the last page. I've said before that I believe the "silence" of comics is one of its greatest strengths. I love how that punchline wasn't actually a part of the comic, but was actually the title. The word "shoot" wasn't what the kid said, it was what you perceive he says. In a way, you're reading the charcter's thoughts, and seeing what they're seeing, not what is actually being said. In a way, you never really know if the kid actually said "shoot" or not, you just know that this is what Constantine and Penny see. That one word is what everything else has been leading up to, but after it hits you hard it just kind of floats there, barely attached to the actual image. It's moments like this that convince me that Ellis, at times, can be a force to be reckoned with and seems to be one of the rare writers who actually understands the way comics work.

About the controversy. I can understand completely why DC stopped this comic from being published, for the same reason that Authority was stalled. One little comic doesn't mean a whole lot to a super empire like AOL/TIME WARNER in comparison to the bad PR flak they might potentially suffer. It's funny comparing this to the Letitia Lerner, Superman's Baby Sitter incident. LL was a story by Kyle Baker for the infamous Elseworlds 80 page special. All the stories in the special were approved, the book went to the printer, and then head honcho Levitz took a second look. He decided to pull and shred the whole damn thing because of a few panels in the Baker story. The way their distribution works, there were numerous copies already on the boat going over to the UK, where what few copies survived became instant collector's items. One thing lead to another, the story was nominated and won an Eisner, and DC tried to mitigate this embarrassing situation by reprinting the story in the Bizarro hardcover (which is why I decided not to include it as an online comic club choice). Baker's response to all this? It was work-for-hire and so long as he got paid he didn't give a damn waht they did with the story. Quite a difference from Ellis' response.
 
 
Steve Block
18:53 / 24.04.02
No need to apologise at all, Mr Moriarty, I thought I'd address the file size just because I thought it relevant to the medium we were discussing, if you get my drift. Although for people on dial up it could be a concern, I'm not on a pay as you go dial up so I'm okay. I also thought it was a good first choice in that it's sort of a half and half step between online comics and hard copy comics or pen and ink or whatever we call them now. I have to say I really felt a bit of frustration at not being able to hold it and turn it and all that stuff. It is a completely different way of viwing stuff. Flicking between pages is something you don't appreciate until you can't do it.

As you say, it was intriguing to read a banned story, and I did find myself walking the line between the principle of censorship and that of market forces. Thanks for bringing up the Kyle Baker story, I think he pretty much nailed the mechanics of it all.

The reference to Constantine in Swamp Thing is a good one, although I think there's a subtle difference here in that in Swamp Thing Constantine was an Enigma, where as here he is the star, and it doesn't quite work for me, there's all that baggage in the way. The interesting thing is, I've been slowly picking up the Swamp Thing reprints and I just don't relate this Constantine to that one, maybe it's because I know too much now as opposed to the first time I read those Swampies. But yes, it did tie back to his early appearances.

I agree entirely with your views on the ending it was very powerful and a clever piece of writing, however I have to say, for me, the plot holes and magic camera just killed it stone dead, and I still have to say I have no idea what point Ellis was trying to make. It was hard to work out where the authorial voice was in this story, for me. I guess the mechanics that were wrong outweighed the ones that were right for me.

I hope you don't really see this as a futil idea. I was quite afraid my post had killed the thread dead, to be honest, I wasn't sure what sort of depth we were meant to get into. Saying that, I really enjoyed the exercise, and although I am disappointed with the turnout, I'd love to go again.

I'd love to hear why people didn't participate in this thread, if that isn't a redundant question.
 
 
moriarty
19:02 / 24.04.02
Hehe. If we did it would probably get more responses than this thread.
 
 
Utopia
00:46 / 25.04.02
ok, helping to solve the lackluster response issue.

i re-read the story and addressed some things that didn't sit well with me the first time. i still think this was a good, worthwhile story. ellis provided an interesting view, which could be used as a complement to anyone who sympathises with these troubled children as dejected youth, or could be seen as total shit by anyone whose views are significantly different. this strip, though, did propel me to reflect upon my whole interepretation of these events, as this period coincided with a very tumultuous time in my life, not really allowing what happened to "sink in."

the "playback" of the jonestown tape also served to be an intensely creepy moment, worthy of the most exploitive of horror films, and was one of the few things that actually, i don't want to say "gave me chills," but made me step back, so to speak.

aside from these positive (in my eyes) factors, i feel that the story fell flat, and was definitely not a high water mark in the whole hellblazer timeline. in fact, the story could have equally starred ellis' own creation, what's his name from strange kisses; character personality was not of the utmost importance. so reading was a bit of a strain, as one looking for characterization or emotion was left in the cold. perhaps the story would have read better as it was originally intended: a monthly departure from the constantine mythos, and a break between story arcs, rather than an issue standing on its own.

in the end, i'm sure the story will stick with me simply because of the reasons i stated above, but the "story," the character driven parts, have already left me.
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:09 / 25.04.02
First I must admit to being a fan of Phil Jeminez's art... The fact that the story had so few appearances by JC made it more acceptable as I think Jimenez's version of JC is a bit on the Too pretty side.

Overall nice use of storytelling, with a few week-spots here & there. Color, I think, may have helped clarify some of it. Also the differences in format became very apparient when one would run into the occasional TALL panel & would have to scroll down & then back up to continue reading.

The magic camera thing was sort of easy to dismiss once it bacame apparient that JC would be introduced into the plot that way. Still it was overall pointless... why would he waist his time with Penny anyway... was he hoping to offer some insight that she could then pass on? Too vague... sort of became a TV plot wrap up, with the preaching & the sudden shift tempo. Most of the story was devoted to creating this sort of Mood... then the last 3 pages try & wrap up what seemed to have only just started... Why didn't he just take her on on of those magical mystery tours of Highschool Horrors... in a sort of anti-Phantom Stranger sort of way...

Wasn't really impressed with the Jones-town inclusion & it seemed unexplained... What was the intuitive leap Penny took to connect the to?

The more I think about it, the more I tend to Pick it apart. It seems like Ellis had this great idea for a "powerful ending" but really didn't have much of an idea on how to get there...
 
 
kid coagulant
19:20 / 29.04.02
OK. My computer’s been acting up and things have been busy here at work so this is the first chance I’ve had to post anything here. And I’m not sure what to add. I’ve never been much of an Ellis fan; I think he’s heavy-handed in his writing and envisions himself as the Hunter Thompson of comic fiction or something, but this is all being discussed in another thread, and, you know, to each their own and so forth.

As for the story, when was it written? I couldn’t make out the publication information on the first page, but I’m assuming in was sometime fairly soon after the Columbine shootings. It’s got a sort of gonzo afterschool special feel to it, an outrageous take on a serious subject. Would it work better if we look at it as satire? It gets so preachy though. An ‘act of revolutionary suicide’? All the Jonestown stuff? These kids hate their lives and they hate the world and they want to die and it’s all the TV’s fault? Or maybe it’s videogames? Or crappy parenting? Or the NRA?

Has anyone seen ‘O’ ? It came out a few months ago after languishing in Miramax’s vaults (or wherever films that Bob Weinstein/Disney think are too controversial go to languish) for a couple of years. It’s about a shooting at a school. Or more accurately, it’s a retelling of ‘Othello’ set in a high school where there is a shooting. Miramax held off on its release claiming that the events at Columbine and the events in the film were too similar. So where does sensitivity come into all of this? What is censorship and what offends people? Things stop being offensive, or become less so, at what point? Are these kinds of stories opportunistic, or is it essential for artists to work these things out through their art? Have to say that I’ve found most of the September 11 tributes/commentary far more offensive (Captain America at ground zero, Ted Rall's 'greedy terror widow' piece) than Ellis’s story, but then school shootings haven’t affected me to that same extent. These are fine lines, I guess

As far as online comics go, how could this have been better? I think there is so much potential for the internet as a medium for comics, it’s a place where you can become totally immersed in a subject. Not sure if Ellis’s story would have benefited from links to statistics on school shootings, or information on Columbine specifically, or studies done on the correlation between television/videogames/etc and violence, but I’d like to see what kinds of materials he used to write this, if any. It would have been interesting if we could have clicked on something that played the actual Jonestown recording, or if we could have seen the last page as an animated clip where the victim silently says whatever it is that he says. Or maybe all the filmed bits as clips, or something…

And a note for moriarty: please stick w/ this. It may take a while for this to take off, but it is a worthwhile activity, and we can have some good discussions and heated debates on down the line. The discussion in this thread has been a good, I think. Looking forward to whatever is next.
 
 
Mikaël
05:12 / 30.04.02
Have you read Transmet 40?
review
I haven't but it seems to be a recreation of "Shoot".
 
  
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