BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Switchboard >

Public schools and the pledge of allegiance?

  
 
Trijhaos
10:16 / 19.04.02
So while watching the news this morning I heard something about public school children now being required to stand up and say the pledge of allegiance in the mornings. I thought this had always been required. I know in every school I attended we had to stand up, face the flag, and do the whole "I pledge allegiance to the flag....". So why is such a big deal being made out of it now? I didn't catch the whole little bit, so I probably missed something.
 
 
netbanshee
15:24 / 19.04.02
...service = citizenship...

Went to private school where we did this every morning as well as your morning prayer. Never thought too much about it but I guess it's interesting to think that this robotic ceremony took place thousands of times. What latent effects do you think it had on the psychy?

I'd say that having an active interest in current events and world politics has replaced any residual notions of blind pride and honour that aren't founded from my own experience. Do you think that some people get a bit influenced or find themselves leaning a bit patriotic by this "required" activity?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
16:20 / 19.04.02
I find the whole pledge of allegiance to be both the funniest and the scariest idea in quite a while. So if they add another state somewhere, and have to put in another star (do they still maintain that symbolism? can't remember), will there suddenly be a mad rush to pledge allegiance to the new flag, and state vociferously that they had their fingers crossed every time with the old one?

Gotta love that War on Terrorism (tm). Resistance is futile, you will be Americanised.
 
 
grant
17:19 / 19.04.02
I went to a Catholic high school in the 80s.

We had to add the words "born and unborn" after words "liberty and justice for all."
 
 
Thjatsi
17:54 / 19.04.02
My only real objection to the pledge is the, "under god", section. I consider this to be crossing the boundary between church-state seperation outlined in our constitution. Other than that, I don't care.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:19 / 19.04.02
hah... I went to public school as a kid & went to catholic church every sunday...
(we stoped saying the pledge around 7th grade where the homerooms where just to rowdy to bother)

I remember one day when it was my turn to "lead the class" in "the pledge" I started:

"Our Father..."

but was summarily inturupted by my teacher who graciously comented that I should wait until everyone was standing and settled before begining.

This comment gave me enough time to realise I was about to resite the wrong automated "prayer/pledge" and adjust it... Saving me from being the playground ridicule target for that day...

Whew... I'll always remember that favor...

Public school was a viscous social hunting ground... I don't think anyone gave the significance of the pledge a bit of thought beyond on more stupid thing the teacher expected us to do or get in trouble for not doing... sort of like homework...
 
 
gentleman loser
00:25 / 20.04.02
Requiring or forcing anyone to recite the pledge of allegiance is a blatant violation of the U.S. Constitution.

The Supreme Court ruled on this waaay back in 1943:

If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us. We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control.

Makes sense to me. I find it disgusting and offensive that states like Virginia continue to write and try to enact laws forcing kids to recite the pledge almost sixty years after this ruling.
 
 
gentleman loser
00:32 / 20.04.02
Oops, I did leave out that the ruling only applies to public, not private, schools. However, I think the fundamental ideal of the ruling should apply everywhere.
 
 
Thjatsi
01:28 / 20.04.02
I disagree with you here. Private schools are not government institutions, and the rule of church-state separation does not apply to them.
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
06:19 / 20.04.02
"We had to add the words "born and unborn" after words "liberty and justice for all."

That. Is. Very. Scary.

On the (loosely-related (and apologies for thread-deviation)) subject of child-indoctrination, I'd be interested to see just how effected by their programming pupils attending creationist schools actually become.

The creationist article can be found here:
 
 
audrey
14:37 / 29.03.04
I am writing a research paper in school on the pledge of allegiance. This is a very controversial issue in America today. In my opinion about saying the Pledge of Allegiance everyday is very important because when America was founded it was founded on Christian beliefs. I also believe that students should have a good understanding of the words that they are repeating like robots everyday. I hope that I am able to include both pros and cons in my research paper and that I am able to express all sides of this growing issue.
 
 
ibis the being
14:44 / 29.03.04
I didn't catch the whole little bit, so I probably missed something.

You missed that the non-custodial parent of a public school student is bringing a case before the Supreme Court that says including the phrase "under God" is unconstitutional, and also that there is a Barbelith thread about this case already.
 
 
lekvar
02:10 / 30.03.04
I always thought the whole thing was balderdash. In jr. high (not sure what the U.K. equivalent is) I always refused to say "under God" since I was a confirmed atheist. No-one gave a damn because it was a robotic ritual. Any one of the kids could have been saying "bleep glorp muck glar" for all the difference it would have made. People only noticed when I said nothing at all...
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:16 / 30.03.04
In my opinion about saying the Pledge of Allegiance everyday is very important because when America was founded it was founded on Christian beliefs.

... So we should issue a great big, "**** you" to anyone who might be in disagreement. And while we're at it, of course, it's worth indoctrinating the kids with the idea - sorry, *fact* - that their country is superior to any other and that they should do whatever their country tells them to, no matter how morally repugnant they might consider it. Remember, the constitution and government are sacred and must not be argued against.
 
 
_Boboss
14:00 / 30.03.04
can you not just get a note from your parents saying 'not my kid thanks' to get you out of doing such a silly thing, as if it was raining and they wanted you to play rugby?
 
 
lekvar
20:08 / 30.03.04
...In my opinion about saying the Pledge of Allegiance everyday is very important because when America was founded it was founded on Christian beliefs.

I'm from California, which was founded by Spaniards killing and enslaving the natives. Do I get to argue that I have the right to enslave the natives? Do I have to speak Spanish? Or is it safe to assume that we're beyond that nonsense?

Take it one step further, look who Australia was founded by...
(please, take no offence, my Aussie friends, just trying to make a point by way of hyperbole)

It was recently found that Caucasians weren't the strict majority in California any more (you have to juggle the numbers a bit to get to that conclusion as I remember but nonetheless...) and unless the U.S. closes its doors to immigration the same thing will happen to the Xtians, too. The Evangelicals are just going to have to learn how to share.
 
 
aluhks SMASH!
22:02 / 30.03.04
In the U.S. kids have been allowed to opt out of actually saying the pledge for decades. I certainly did all through elementary.

the case against leaving "under God" in the pledge rests on the idea that a child who decides to not say the pledge still faces implicit discrimination (and possible social repercussions) and that even having those words in the pledge at all represents a tacit endorsement of Christianity. I never felt ostracized personally, but completely agree that explicitly stating the U.S. exists "under God" cannot be anything other than a religious position.
 
 
Hieronymus
22:09 / 30.03.04
America was founded it was founded on Christian beliefs.

Once again, it depends entirely on what you define as 'Christian beliefs'. Deistic Christian beliefs with brains enough to recognize that the state and the church made nasty, nasty bedfellows? You betcha. Militant Biblical legalism? Uh... no.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
07:57 / 31.03.04
In the U.S. kids have been allowed to opt out of actually saying the pledge for decades. I certainly did all through elementary.

Technically true, but:

a) Like you say, those who don't say are the odd ones out, and have to face the consequences. I've certainly heard of kids who've been punished by teachers for not saying it; doesn't sound terribly democratic to me.

b) It's the default option. Saying that kids can choose to say such-and-such if they wish is certainly not the same as saying they can opt out of saying it if they wish. Because it is the default, nearly all kids will parrot it and be indoctrinated by it (and I can't believe that it doesn't have any effect; there is certainly a rather nasty nationalistic streak in the attitude of a worryingly large number of Americans which I can't believe has nothing to do with such practices... in fact it's rather like children being brought up with a religion; the majority will keep the religious views of their parents/school, with relatively few questioning it enough to make their own choices). The pledge itself may be a little bit more subtle, but one shouldn't have to actively opt out of saying something every day condemning those ****ing queers and blackies, and it's pretty much the same sort of thing. In fact, by saying the pledge, children are effectively lending their support to the entirety of the constitution and national law, including things which effectively condemn the "queers and blackies"... and soon, even possibly a constitutional amendment designed to make it very clear that Gay People Are Not Equal.

D. Mass, could you copy part of that link? One has to sign up to the NY Times in order to view it.
 
 
Baz Auckland
15:07 / 31.03.04
...registration to the NY Times is free though...
 
 
ibis the being
18:04 / 31.03.04
There's also this registration bypass tool.
 
 
audrey
14:37 / 05.04.04
I am in the 9th grade and I attend a public school and everyday in 3rd period we are forced to say the pledge of allegiance. I am Christain and have no problem with saying it but I do believe in respecting those who do not wish to say it.
 
 
Blacksword
15:59 / 05.04.04
As a Canadian I have always found the whole pledge thing a tad cracked. Never even thought about it until I was down in the States when I was 13 or 14 at an Amway convention (the creepy fundamentalist ultra right-wing slant of the organization among other things eventually turned my parents off, that and the fact that its a scam). There were some group activities for the children and teens and in the middle of it everybody popped up to do the pledge. Must say I was decidely creeped out by the general cult atmosphere. Heck even as the citizen of another country I could feel the compulsion to conform.

As to the under God portion, it really has no right to be there as it was a late insertion. It was introduced in the 1950's at the height of anit-Communist sentiment to distinguish 'holy' America from the Godless Commies. As such it's hardly a religious statement unless you count the doctrine of "we're right God says so" that most nations the world over of all religions have used. I'm a person of faith and to me that statement has no meaning so I could care less about it staying or going, especially as I find the whole pledge repugnant.

Though I do find the parallel to bringing a child up in a religion a tad insulting. If the parents are resposnible and have brains themselves its not a matter of indoctrination. Granted it does happen a lot (I've met quite a few church zombies my age over the years) but it is not a universal thing. I went to shurch and Sunday School regularly until I was 11 or so. And a good part of that was thet my mother didn't want me at home alone on Sunday mornings until I was old enough. After that it was up to me, and I didn't go to church really regularly again until I was about 16 or 17 and didn't pick up a Bible or pray on a regular basis until I was about 18. Over the years I have spent quite a lot of time exploring my beliefs and I constantly evaluate them. And while I have not studied other religious traditions in depth I have basic understanding of many and I continue to find the system of belief I have adopted to be fully satisfying spiritually, emotionally and rationally. As a final point, indoctrination often results in complete reversals. I'm the son of two ministers and as such I know of a great many cases where children of minsters turn out to be the most vehement atheists due to the force feeding of religion they received early in life. And besided, by indoctrinating a child you do them no favours as indoctrinated belief is not a genuine belief. "Faith" of that sort tends to crumble to dust when seriously tested leaving the individual gutted.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
08:33 / 06.04.04
Though I do find the parallel to bringing a child up in a religion a tad insulting.

Apologies; however, I did say "the majority", and I stand by that. Fine, you went through plenty of self-analysis and consideration etc. and decided that Christianity is for you, but I'd still assert that in any given situation, the majority of people, particularly of children, will stick with the default option unless it is significantly to their detriment to do so, whether it be religious indoctrination, indoctrination of the sentiment of the pledge of allegiance or whatever. I refuse to believe that without being brought up with such things, the majority of children would choose to recite the pledge of allegiance or gravitate not only to a religion, but specifically to the Christian religion. I do agree that, yes, extreme situations can cause extreme "rebellions" - living in the current hellish state of global politics undoubtedly fires up quite a few people (most of whom seem to be here on Barbelith) - but, unfortunately, it's invariably a minority, and the usual reaction is simply compliance.

Whether or not indoctrinated belief is genuine belief (and I'd certainly say that it's going a bit far to say that it never is, as the number of "genuine" patriots and "genuine" Christians in America brought up with such beliefs would attest), I think, is fairly irrelevant as an argument that it is harmless. In fact, not irrelevant, but worse: indoctrinated beliefs are much more alarming and sinister than any belief formed independently by an individual.
 
  
Add Your Reply