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A serpent with its back broken: significance, please

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:07 / 19.04.02
Lately I have been having lots of odd dreams in the form of several discrete stories. Many of them have this theme: a dangerous dragon/Great Worm type-thing is battled and dies of a broken back or severed head. But in dying, its tail lashes out and injures (fatally?) its slayer.

One story was a fairly standard-issue dragon slaying yarn. A man fought a dragon with a view to devouring it to gain its strength; he broke its back and cut off its head, but its tail struck the ground and made an earthquake which affected the man's home town.

Another featured a train wreck caused by an explosion. The train was moving much like a living snake. It was struck and severed in the middle by falling debris; the severed part convulsed violently and caused more damage.

I've had a number of dreams with this kind of imagery over the last week or so and I've come to suspect that they may have some kind of significance outside of the personal level, so I'm recording the information here in case it's of use to someone. If you know me, you'll know I don't really "do" psychic, but this feels... I don't know. Different.
 
 
Wyrd
00:19 / 19.04.02
I presume you've an objective viewpoint in the dreams? You're not doing the slaying, right?

I can think of a couple of interpretations of this, but in the end of the day, it all depends on what the Dragon and train symbolise to you.

A useful technique is dream reentry. Try and meditate on one of the dreams, describe a scene carefully in your mind, and then enter the dream itself and let it play out around you. This time query someone or something within the dream as to its meaning. You might notice details - like recognising the countryside, or reading some sign - that will tip you off to possible meanings.

Recurrent dreams are normally significant as they are usually a message your subconscious mind is desparately trying to get to you. It could be about your health, your home, family or relationship, or perhaps even a future event. There are lots of possibilities.

You could also go to sleep repeating an intent about wanting to understand the recurring dream. Good luck!
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
01:32 / 19.04.02
If your dream ends as you wake up its very easy to get back into the same dream. Simply turn over and go back to sleep.

Keep a dream journal too. If something wakes you up in the middle of the night be sure to write down any impressions, as well as in the morning. Hasn't decrypted any mysteries of the cosmos for me, but it's a nice form of free entertainment.

Serpent with a broken back, very spooky cool. Keep us posted?
 
 
Seth
07:37 / 19.04.02
I find it very interesting that the dragon symbol is replaced by a train symbol in the next dream. The second dream seems to flesh out the first, in very interesting ways. One doesn't normally associate trains with dragons. Find the common thread, and I think you'll be close to getting to grips with this one...
 
 
drzener
09:49 / 19.04.02
Weird and interesting.
I've been having really vivid dreams as well over the last few weeks. This is strange for me because I normally don't remember mine at all.(Probably just from smoking a lot of dope over the last five years) But the first one I had featured a big sea monster like Nessie. I wrote it down because it really stuck with me due to being nearly fucking cinematic in scope and vividness. From my dream journal it is as follows:
In the dream I have a job working at a sort of aquarium/waterworld place with dolphins and stuff. However in the bit I was working, which is accessed by caves and really dark and deep there is some type of giant seamonster. Basically it was like the loch Ness monster except it is really, really fast and talks to me and the girl I work with(in the dream) telepathically. Next thing I know some sort of shady government agency move in to try and control the beast. Funnily enough they can't and any attempts they make result in the beast rising up from the depths really fast and eating the guards they place there. In the dream any time the creature rises I have a sense of the enormous mass and speed of the beast. However, the creature for some reason likes me and the girl I'm working with. When the dodgy paramilitary types suss this out they threaten us and basically there is a bit in the dream where we are blindfolded with guns stuck to our heads. Now it gets really weird because even though I'm blindfolded I get an impression of the beasties view of things as it rises from the depths, bites the heads off the soldiers and drags us into the water. We swim for miles and miles and miles through the underwater gaves with the beast guiding us and protecting us. I don't think there was any more to the dream after this.
My own interpretation of this dream is fairly sketchy.
I was really intimidated but not scared of the creature and the point at which I stopped being scared was the point when we were about to be executed. It was like when I trusted the creature was when it protected us. By contrast the dodgy military types were completely useless despite their numbers and firepower.
I sort of took this dream to mean that perhaps I should not be afraid of my emotions (even though I used to be too emotional in the past) and subconscious. Overall I felt this was a very positive dream.
Now the ones I've had this week... I'm not too sure.
 
 
drzener
09:51 / 19.04.02
Sorry for my last post. I didn't realise I was waffling so much and it might be a bit off the point.
 
 
pacha perplexa
13:05 / 19.04.02
Check this out: "The Babylonians believed that their "god Marduk split in half the dragon monster Tiamet, symbolized by the chaotic ocean, and from her carcass created the universe" (Toombs 283)."

From here: http://members.tripod.com/~ElizBrunner/Scholar/SnakesOne.htm

The thing that ocurs to me now (sorry if it's so obvious) is the serpent as symbol of the cicle of life (because of the Ouroboros Archetype, despite the fact that the image you saw doesn't show a serpent devouring itself) and men trying to break it, so they can control the cicle, stopping the chaotic force of nature. But they soon find out that it can't be broken, not without consequences.

Another association: serpent, feminine force versus masculine force.

Mmm. I'm probably not making much sense.

But the ouroboros thing is VERY interesting:

"The ouroboros has several meanings interwoven into it. Foremost is the symbolism of the serpent biting, devouring, eating its own tail. This symbolises the cyclic Nature of the Universe: creation out of destruction, Life out of Death. The ouroboros eats its own tail to sustain its life, in an eternal cycle of renewal."

taken from here: http://www.enemies.com/html/newtestament/PARADIGM_ouroboros.html
 
 
Seth
13:50 / 19.04.02
I don't think the oroborus connection is too far fetched. Dragons have traditionally symbolised the natural world (specifically the coming together of the elements) as well as the unconscious mind. Of course, Mordant's most prevalent dragon association may well be Lockheed, in which case the dream is prolly about gaining the ability to walk through walls.

I dreamed of a dragon the other night. It was small but ferocious, with an exaggerated jawline and rows of wicked teeth. To begin with I ran from it, but when it was out of sight I put aside my fear and returned to where I had left it, intending to have a playfight with the beastie. I tried some bull fighting moves, playfully taunting it with my jacket. For a second, my jacket obscured my vision, and when I whipped it to one side the dragon had disappeared.

I took it to mean that I should become a vigilante. Like Batman, only fatter and balder.
 
 
drzener
14:02 / 19.04.02
I had another dream a week later which started out as a sort of xfiles story featuring two women being chased after escaping from an asylum. I won't go into as boring detail as the last one but at the end of the dream a company of US marines ended up getting devoured by hundreds of fury-like women (I took them to represent maenads).
I find the imagery of feminine force versus masculine force very interesting. I also see it perhaps as representing emotion versus reason (I'm not sure how relevant it is to your dream mordant). Or even nature versus science.
Serpents are a symbol of regeneration as well. A snake sheds its skin to grow.
Some christians tend to see serpents as symbolising either Satanism or Paganism e.g. St. George and the dragon, St. Patrick driving snakes from Ireland.
Mordant, I'd be interested to know if you identified with either the hero or the serpent in the first dream you described or if you observed the events objectively.
This dream analysis stuff is of a lot of interest to me these days due to actually having really vivid dreams for the first time in years.
Funnily enough I reckon I'm going through a period of emotional regeneration now.
 
 
cusm
14:24 / 19.04.02
Well, I associate dragons with trains this way:

Gromantic lines, sometimes called lay lines, are also knows as Dragon line. Man tends to build roads along them, and railways. What travels along dragon lines but dragons?

Not to spook you or anything, but there was a derailment in Florida today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14791-2002Apr19.html
 
 
grant
16:25 / 19.04.02
cusm got in before me. Both feng shui and early British belief use the dragon as the symbol for energies in the ground - not underground, but moving within the earth itself, analogous to electricity. or trains, maybe. (the idea of connecting different locales is also part of ley lines/dragon forces.)

Perhaps something is menacing the earth and the earth is striking back/lashing out around you. So, what's the earth, then?
 
 
Warewullf
22:45 / 19.04.02
More mythological references, from Norse mythology:


In Norse mythology, Jormungand is one of the three children of the god Loki and his wife, the giantess Angrboda. The gods were well aware that this monster was growing fast and that it would one day bring much evil upon gods and men. So Odin deemed it advisable to render it harmless. He threw the serpent in the ocean that surrounds the earth, but the monster had grown to such an enormous size that it easily spans the entire world, hence the name Midgard Serpent. It lies deep in the ocean where it bites itself in its tail, and all mankind is caught within his coils.

At the day of Ragnarok, Thor will kill this serpent but will die from its poison.
 
 
Warewullf
23:16 / 19.04.02
If the serpent traditionally represents evil, then the man killing it may represent good. Good slays evil and is in turn slayed. Good cannot exist without evil and vice versa.

Pehaps it's a lesson in accepting the duality of the self?
Acceptance, not repression.

No?
 
 
ciarconn
11:42 / 21.04.02
Hey MC, from what you mentioned in another thread, you seem to be "experiencing technical dificulties" with your magick. Perhaps it's related, maybe you associate the dragon with your magick, and something "broke" it up?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:28 / 21.04.02
Thanks for the input, peeps.

I think the association between the dragon and the train was just a similarity in shape; in my dream, the train wasn't "behaving" like a train but like a living thing, a wounded snake.

The de-railment story was creepy, but I don't think it was connected with my dream. There's lots of train wrecks, so it seems likely that this was a simple coincidence.

This looks more likely:

Both feng shui and early British belief use the dragon as the symbol for energies in the ground - not underground, but moving within the earth itself

As for my own magick, well... the technical difficulties seem to be over, for now. (Actually I've never felt more able or in tune with my magickal self. Hope it lasts.)
 
 
mixmage
01:36 / 22.04.02
The Lupine-one got there first! - but cannot protect you from my waffling rot...

When Thor slays Jormungand, his hammer [mjollnir] would likely have shattered its spine or skull. He is engulfed in venom and only manages to stumble 9 steps before falling.
Is this another significant 9? Nine worlds, after all. [if he stumbled through the solar-system... the ninth rock is Pluto... Fitting]

The world serpent would be the most likely cause of tectonic rumblings... your dream fits the details perfectly. But Ragnarok [the final battle] is not the first encounter between these foes... there's a little back-story:

Thor travels to the giants' stronghold at Utgard... where he is set a series of trials, one of which sees him trying to lift the giant King's grey cat. He tries with one arm, but the kitty just arches its back... even using both arms, the cat just arches over him like a rainbow - all four paws to the floor.

It turns out that the trials were "fixed" by enchantment - the cat is really Jormungand.

Thor seeks retribution. Persuading a giant to take him fishing, with the head of a huge ox [SkyBellower] for bait, Thor succeeds in hooking the beast - pulling so hard that both feet go thru the boat... then digging his heels into the sea-bed.
When he manages to get its head up, the giant goes pale and cuts Thor's line just as he draws back to hammer its skull. As it dives, Thor flings Mjollnir and catches it a blow on the head... but, obviously, not hard enough!

As far as I know, there are only two other serpent/dragon figures from the Norse... Nidhogg [corpse-sucker] down in the roots of Yggdrasil and another named Fafnir. Not originally a dragon, Fafnir turns himself into one to protect a hoard of gold, the same hoard from which came "The Ring" of Wagner and Tolkein. Fafnir's brother Regin plots to slay him and take the booty - roping in the legendary Sigurd to do the dirty.
With the dragon slain, Regin tells Sigurd to cook the heart for him - Sigurd does so, touching it at one point to see if it is ready. Burning his fingertip, he puts it in his mouth to soothe it, inadvertently swallowing a little of the sizzling juice. Suddenly, he understands the birds who chatter in the trees... they are mocking him for being a fool, for not seeing that Regin intends to slay his accomplice and for not eating the heart himself... to do so would make him "wisest of all".
Forewarned, Sigurd slays Regin, eats the heart and curls up to sleep on the cursed gold.

Thanks for bearing with me... the images seem to mirror your dream and, due to your suspicions of "extra-personal" significance, I'm adding all I know to your thread.

Incidentally... I'm not particularly good at remembering dreams, but I did have one recently that I recall. I was given a symbol of fire to hold in each hand: a rose in my left and an eagle in my right. For some reason, I couldn't maintain these, so - without any criticism/reprimand I was given new symbols which I could hold comfortably: a dragon on my left and a raven on my right.

Seems to be serpent season!
 
 
Perfect Tommy
08:48 / 22.04.02
In both dreams you describe, the "dragon" is dangerous, then becomes more dangerous once it's been attacked and injured.

Maybe that means that the dragons represent something that appears to be a problem, but attempting to fix it by head-on methods will likely make things worse?

Then there's the significance of a spinal injury or decapitation; on the one hand, a broken back may just be a way of showing that the injury is severe and mortal. But on the other, the wurm is thrashing around causing damage as a muscle reflex, without connection to the brain--perhaps the unconscious nature of the additional damage is significant.
 
 
grant
13:41 / 22.04.02
serpent as brain stem? I kind of like that....
 
 
cusm
15:33 / 22.04.02
In both dreams you describe, the "dragon" is dangerous, then becomes more dangerous once it's been attacked and injured.

Hm. Dragon also represents vitality, basic survival instincts, root chackra stuff. A beast is never so dangerous as when it is cornered or injured. When the survival instincts kick in, the higher mind steps out of the way of fight or flight. Lashing without thought, a lot of colateral damage could be caused.

If you're going to slay a dragon, do it quicky and cleanly: pierce the heart or cleave the head, and mind the venom. The worst thing you can do is injure it with a slow death, as this leaves it plenty of time to wreak its vengence before it expires.
 
 
mixmage
16:18 / 22.04.02
from Sun Tzu's Art of War [ch11]

The shuaijan is a serpent on Mount Chang.

If you strike its head, its tail attacks;
if you strike its tail, its head attacks;
if you strike its middle, both the head and tail attack.

Ask:

Can forces be made like the shuaijan?
I say:
They can.
 
 
mixmage
22:40 / 22.04.02
check http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n05/mente/limbic_i.htm

the oldest structure in the human brain is often referred to as "the reptilian brain"... dealing with feed/fuck/fight/flee impulses.
The next bit is limbic [emotions] and cortex [intellect, two parts which developed in tandem... in other words, built onto the snake in our spine/skull.

like that too, grant?

check out how Jaweh "struck off the serpent's limbs" [limbic?]... a just punishment or the act of a deity who realises the opposition is just too smart?
 
 
Rev. Wright
09:47 / 23.04.02
The lizard part of the brain. Oh yes, what revelations.

the dragon exists in the imagination, the powerful and subtle half of our existence. It is through this aspect of our minds that we commune with the cosmos, outside of our, relatively myopic sapien perceptive consciousness. The dragon is a lord of this realm, a denizen of before the primordal soup, a multidimensional energy being, with a soft spot for the emerging enlightenment that sapienns are capable of.
The dragon is sexual. kundalini energy, and reptilian consciouness is settled with its fornication and the lizard is left to dream. (North American Myths) The dragon exists in our dream world, where lizard spends his time and humans doubt their life.

The dragon is the paradox that monkeys hate to face: 'If everything is nothing then waht do I have to give me power over others?'
Monkeys pretend to be kings and hoard their gold, dragons point out that this is foolish ansd turn the gold to lead. In jealousy the monkey tells the story that the dragon held the gold.

What it may well come down to is that higher consciousness and sensual earthdom are compatible. Lizards know this, but sapiens have to flit between one or the other, the head of the dragon or the tail, or could it be the middle?. Fables and tales, like the one above that corrupt and act as a prison? Or is it more that the middle is bittersweet to the potentially flawed monkey mind? Honesty is a word that dragons entice, honesty. Lets not pretend that we don't want sex or that we dislike intellect. Lets stop dancing around like fools, in denial. Too much head energy leads to mental illness, too much tail energy leads to physical dis-ease.

From the dragon we can learn balance that lends us to evolve in spirit.

Paradox and trains.
Did you see the reports about rail safety in the UK. It is not cost effective to improve rail safety, currently, as it will slow down the trains and cause more people to drive. This will result in a small lowering of rail deaths and a greater, realative, increase in road fatalities. Dragin head or dragon tail?
 
 
FinderWolf
16:08 / 23.04.02
>> Well, I associate dragons with trains this way:
>> Gromantic lines, sometimes called lay lines, are also knows as Dragon line. Man tends to build roads along them, and railways. What travels along dragon lines but dragons?
>> Not to spook you or anything, but there was a derailment in Florida today.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14791-2002Apr19.html
grant

>> cusm got in before me. Both feng shui and early British belief use the dragon as the symbol for energies in the ground - not underground, but moving within the earth itself, analogous to electricity. or trains, maybe. (the idea of connecting different locales is also part of ley lines/dragon forces.)

Another train wreck today: California freight train collided with a passenger train. What is it about train wrecks lately???

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=1&u=/ap/train_crash
 
 
mixmage
02:29 / 24.04.02
oh... you beautifuls...

heard of kundalini as "serpent fire"... and that piss-drinkers avoid "the head and tail of the snake" - the first third containing the more volatile[?] stuff and the last the heavier "dirt"... useful to know when stalking a cow with a bowl... or fixing a brew for the crew!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:02 / 24.04.02
Some quick thoughts:

In all versions of the dream I am an observer, not part of the action. It's as if I'm floating in the air and watching.

In one version of the dream it was made clear to me the serpent had an extra vestigial brain in its back, which the swordsman was hoping to hit but missed. In this version the animal was killed and butchered by the swordsman; in another, it killed him outright as it died.
 
 
mixmage
01:25 / 25.04.02
sacral brain?
 
  
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