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'Near Enough' Justice

 
 
Ganesh
13:04 / 18.09.01
(Disclaimer: perhaps the fact that this worries me at all is an indication of my own naivety.)

Reaction to the bombings are the biggest, most recent example of this, but I remember sensing it also during the Louise Woodward trial. I'm talking about the fuzziness around the edges of the latter part of 'innocent until proven guilty'.

It seems to me that, in hugely emotive circumstances, the enormity of the victims' suffering demands punishment of someone - and the question of whether or not they can be proven beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty becomes a secondary issue, almost an afterthought.

In the case of Louise Woodward, the evidence against her was equivocal, but the parents repeatedly stressed the extent of their suffering - understandable enough, but not directly relevant to whether or not Woodward had actually committed the crime. In the case of the 9/11 bombings, the scale of the tragedy is obvious, the collective suffering enormous but, despite vague talk of 'percentage certainty', we've yet to hear exactly what the 'hard evidence' is - and I think it's important that we do.

Does enormity of suffering on the part of the victim(s) obviate the need to prove conclusively that X is responsible? In such situations (where, arguably, there's a real need for vengeance) is it more important to punish X - as a scapegoat who has likely committed other crimes - than to fully establish that he committed this one?

Will 'near enough' justice have legal implications in future?
 
 
moriarty
13:34 / 18.09.01
Bush is covering his ass by proclaiming war on all terrorists and the countries that harbour them. That way, even if he goofs and kills Bin Laden for a crime he did not commit, he will still be in the right by killing a known terrorist.

Essentially this gives the US carte blanche to kill anyone since every country on this planet harbours terrorists, intentionally or not, knowingly or not.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:40 / 18.09.01
I have an optimistic nagging feeling that Bush is not much involved in the US response.

I believe the administration has split. Bush is a figurehead doing the flag waving to appease the nation. (head on plate patter, dead or alive patter etc.) If he did not say these things the Am. public would think he was soft.

I think Powell etc. will lead a more intelligent (but ultimately futile) war against the ******.

So, president says one thing.

Military and intelligence does something else.

It also makes sense from a strategic/intelligence point of view.

It's stil going to fuck things up, but maybe not as badly as Bush's attitude suggests.
 
 
moriarty
13:45 / 18.09.01
I can see that.

I read a quote by Powell where he admitted that targeting countries harbouring terrorists would be problematic, especially since, and he admitted this, the US would fall under those conditions. Very bizarre seeing a well thought out statement come from the Guv'ment.

Also, there is supposed to be a bit of a split between Powell and his followers and the more Hawkish sort.

Last word. Arse.


[ 18-09-2001: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:54 / 18.09.01
 
 
Voidmind
18:04 / 19.09.01
Well, I think alot of people forget that bin Laden is already guilty of "other actions" for which he is wanted...

What surprises me is no one is going for that 5 million reward
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
18:27 / 19.09.01
But getting back to the point, we're also seeing it from the other side in the case of the Bulger killers. By law once they've served their time they are then free, a clean slate in a sense. Yet James Bulger's parents are demanding that the whole basis of law be overturned, that they haven't had 'near enough' justice. I think this is going to become more of an issue in the UK, where justice is so closely controlled by a person who has to worry about what the average Sun/Mail reader is thinking in order to keep his job.

Don't know if this is a similar situation in America, how close is judicial control to the elected officials?
 
 
gentleman loser
18:32 / 19.09.01
Moriarity, you first post on this thread is exactly what I've been saying for the past week about Bush's "War on Terrorism". Most people's respose has been to plug their ears and sing "God Bless America", not literally but certainly figuratively.

Look at all of these terrorist groups.

Think Bush/Cheney/Powell etc. is going to go after all of these people? Hell no, he's not.

I think this is what we can expect with Bush's dealing with Bin Laden:

Lots of bombing.

Some brief ground operations.

Declare victory over terrorism.

Go home.

Have lots of parades and flag waving.

Things will eventually be pretty much the same as they were before any of this happened. We saw this happen before with that guy in Iraq 10 years ago, who just happens to still be running things there.
 
 
surblimity
18:47 / 19.09.01
quote:Originally posted by yawn:

I think Powell etc. will lead a more intelligent (but ultimately futile) war against the ******.

So, president says one thing.

Military and intelligence does something else.




i certainly hope you're right. any war is a bad choice in my opinion, but this crusade on terrorism seems ridiculous. as others have said, the tragedy just seems to be an excuse for the US to go get rid of everyone it doesn't particularly like. seems absurd that such a thing would be allowed, but nothing's really unbelievable nowadays.

some say that not "bombing the hell out of those bastards" would be dishonoring the dead in this tragedy... seems to me that using their deaths as an excuse to unleash more death and mayhem would be the true dishonor.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
16:39 / 20.09.01
quote:Originally posted by gentleman loser:
Lots of bombing.

Some brief ground operations.

Declare victory over terrorism.

Go home.

Have lots of parades and flag waving.


Bush's rhetoric leads me to believe that the War of Terrorism is going to be as long-term as the War on Drugs. Let’s hope it isn’t quite as misguided, nor fail quite so miserably.
 
 
Genie
17:09 / 20.09.01
I heard earlier this evening that the "crusade" against "Islamic terrorism" is to go under the moniker Operation Infinite Justice.

When we start seeing this title splashed in giant black type all over our newspaper headlines, the arguments vis a vis Osama Bin Laden's guilt or otherwise will cease to matter.

No wonder Britain's Jin-Go'in Mad!!!!!

(and did anyone see John Sargeant's plea that - and i paraphrase here - "this situation really is more complicated than merely seeking retribution, the Afghans are not our enemies......." being cut politely short by the ITN newsreader. Fantastic.)
 
 
The Damned Yankee
17:13 / 20.09.01
Any bets on that score?
 
  
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