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Hey Kids! Guess what I learned today in Sociology!

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:17 / 16.04.02
...that, contrary to my earlier belief, I CAN be more embarrassed about being american.

Dig this, cats. I learned today that not only did America reject any Jewish men, women, and children attempting to get the hell out of Germany so as not to be exterminated in their millions during WWII, but we smuggled IN thousands (yes, thousands) of SS officers. Hell, America gave them fake identification and lots of money. Not only that, but after the press left Nuremburg, WE FUCKING RELEASED MOST OF THE WAR CRIMINALS WE HAD JUST SENTENCED TO DEATH FOR CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

I didn't want to believe this, and maybe you don't either. But dig this as well. The "Final Solution" was arguably one of the largest organized efforts ever undertaken by a country anywhere at anytime, yes? Which means that in order for it to have stayed hidden from so many people for so long, those involved would have had to have amazing orginizational skills as far as murdering large numbers of people and getting away with it is concerned. So America took them in, and gave them jobs with huge corporations so that they could use their skills in dealing with labor unions and other "troublesome" orginizations.

Christ, I didn't need to hear this today. I was in a shitty mood already after learning a really nice girl I went to school with (I was in fucking marching band with her, for christ's sake) died on Saturday in a hiking accident. She was off with her fiance when she tripped and fell sixty feet.

Is it my age? Do you just reach an age when you learn that your country is capable of far worse things than you in all honesty ever imagined? And is it by coincidence the same age your friends start dying? Jesus, I'm won't be twenty until June. what the fuck.

But that's not really the point of this post. My question is this. How many of you were aware of this? I was not taught this in school. I was taught quite the opposite, that America (well, a group of nations, really) sentenced the war criminals and had many of them hung. They had pictures of them hanging in one of my history books. I knew that I couldn't expect an unbiased education, but I didn't expect to be outright lied to, with such glaringly false "proof". God, what a day.
 
 
Utopia
01:00 / 16.04.02
I hate to be cynical, and this in no way discounts what you said johnny (disturbing as all fuck if true), but I'd like to see some documentation on this. Where'd you get your info, J? Just curious. Public school taught me, inadvertantly, to question everything I hear, even if it is counter-consensus truth.
 
 
shirtless, beepers and suntans
01:05 / 16.04.02
yeah, Operation "Paperclip" in conspiracy lore. the U.S. space program would never have gotten off the ground, literally, if it weren't for the work of Werner Von Braun, designer of the V2 rocket, from what i remember.

also the social sciences are neither social nor scientific. discuss.

love,
mike
political science major extraordinaire
 
 
Utopia
01:33 / 16.04.02
Ah yes, thank you for reminding me of that. I was aware of this on some scale, but I don't know how far it went. I hope my above post doesn't read as if I'm antagonizing J, I was just wondering if this came out of a textbook or something else one could look up.

What? You say I can use this "inter-net" to find stuff out?
Tell me more.
 
 
The Monkey
03:39 / 16.04.02
Zenarchist,

As someone of Ashkenaz and Kalderash decent, I find it odd that I'm taking this position. There is an entire wing of my maternal ancestors that died in Dachau, and my stake, my entrenchment, in this remembrance is telling in that I study ethnic violence as a career.

Yes, America consistently turned away Jewish refugees prior to their entry into the war, by which time the borders were sufficiently locked down that noone could make it to America. This travesty is perhaps best presented by the book "The Ship of the Damned."

Nonetheless I would sincerely question whoever informed you of these "facts," as they have clearly been twisted by a more modern agenda of critique of the US government and the generalized "corporate." While the mechanical data may be accurate, the spaces left for interpretation have clearly been filled. The "importation" of scientists working for the Third Reich - operation Paperclip - is clearly documented. On the other hand, this assertion about SS men with "organizational skills" applied to the Final Solution, I have never heard before, in spite having spent the last four years up to my neck in primary sources. Most of the men along the train relays that made up the Final Solution were tried and executed, many committed suicide as part of their loyal attempt to destroy documentation. Nonetheless, some camp commanders and smaller bureaucrats slipped away, as well as the single man responsible for most of the organization process of the Shoah; Adolf Eichmann. If the records of those caught later by Israeli agents tell us a rather different story than their reappearance as captains of industry.

If one would care to track the efforts of the Moussad, Simon Weisenthal and his colleagues, you'd discover that many of these men who were higher up in the party found their way first to havens in South America, and a few to North America under false identification. The former tended to live high on the hog from appropriated cash from the Party vaults (it helps to have enough cash to bribe Juan and Evita Peron...btw, much of the gold they were paid in was taken from the teeth incinerated Jews and Gypsies....). Please recall the fashion in which Eichmann himself was forcibly extracted from Argentina, against all international law, and tried and executed in Israel.

The latter, though - the US-imigrated Nazis - tended to end up in small towns, running or working for small businesses, and generally lying very low. I would be interested to see documentation regarding this idea of the movement of SS men to specifically act as counterintelligence agents against "left" organizations. While I am skeptical, the looming shadow of J Egdar Hoover over US intelligence for decades to come less room for this possibility in my mind.

However, for the record: only the major war criminals of the Third Reich were tried and executed at Nuremburg...even many of these in absentia. Furthermore, and this may sound like the ultimate in apologetics, but you have to realize that the SS was an immense bureaucratic body, only a section of which was responsible, even aware, of the Shoah/Final Solution. Military intelligence officers of the Waffen SS, who were a body independent of the "Death's Head" regiments that executed the Final Solution, and hence not necessarily a part of the war crimes tribunal, barring specific record/reference to actions relating to the Final Solution.

Many ex-SS men actually found their way in to corporate business in Germany and the rest of Europe via the capital they stashed away in Argentina, not to mention Juan Peron's silent agreement to shelter escaped Nazi war criminals and help them conceal their identities. After a decade or so, with nothing to trace them bureaucratically to their past, they found it easy to become key players in the companies rebuilding the rest of the world. Nonetheless, the myth of corporate-Nazi connection has been blown out of proportion to encompass all corporate entities, which in fact are doing quite well at the eevil coldhearted thing all by themselves.

Much of the German High Command, particularly the military branch which were controlled by men not necessarily considered "Party loyal" were entirely unaware of the Shoah. The entire system was masterminded by a tiny cabal of Third Reich loyalists - Himmler, Heydrich, and Eichmann being the chain of command who ultimately put and kept things in motion, with all authority devolving from this triumverate. Indeed, Individuals who were not cleared to find out about this project were quieted and removed by the Abwehr (German secret police).

Indeed, the entire historical image of the Shoah as a smooth-running machine is somewhat dubious (read "The Twisted Road to Auschwitz"). While the effectiveness of the Final Solution cannot be doubted in efficiency terms, one can look at the paper trail that led up to and through it, and perceive the general disorganization of that portion of the Reich in attempting to make material their leaderships' wild ideological positions. The axial positions of Himmler and Eichmann (Heydrich died in a plane accident) in keeping the system running somewhat belies the image of smooth bureaucratic unity...Eichmann in particular put in a great deal of footwork and effort to make the trains run (his diary keeping was as meticulous as the rest of his life).

As to whether you've been lied to, I don't know. I didn't grow up on US education, but I can tell you that everywhere I've been "educated," people have manipulated the perception of the past to decrease the sense of culpability and the sheer gut horror of what went on, but at the same time iron to perfect clarity the sense of "right" and "wrong." In reality, history is a mess, and nothing is half so clear as the victors - or sometimes the vanquished - would make it out to be.
 
 
The Monkey
03:44 / 16.04.02
PS IF you think it's horrifying to realize how much terrible stuff the US has done, try being a Russian suddenly opened up to the world of all the zamizdat publications that the USSR enforces the ban of with imprisonment....
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:33 / 16.04.02
Monkey - thanks. That was great. Just as an aside, re: this...

one can look at the paper trail that led up to and through it, and perceive the general disorganization of that portion of the Reich in attempting to make material their leaderships' wild ideological positions.

- this is true of pretty much every aspect of the Reich. It was definitely not an efficient, organised regime - most of its actions were attempts at patching over a failing economy and markedly disparate administrative practices across the regions... the important thing was that it *looked* correct.
 
 
alas
12:15 / 16.04.02
What's most disturbing to me about US practice in the 20th century in relation to this era of history, is that a big part of the reason we didn't say anything when we first started learning of the treatment of Jewish people in Germany was our own legalized Apartheid here. Thousands of predominantly black folks were lynched during this period, especially if you count those killed during the numerous "race riots" of the period--in Georgia, Oklahoma, Florida, etc.--which are more accurately termed "pogroms." Then look at the history of our prison-industrial complex, especially as it developed as a "black code" to take the place of "slave codes" in the south, which has today become a booming business--including legal slavery in many states. Of course THIS is NOT THE SAME as the Shoah. But we have built more prisons than any nation since Nazi Germany, and there are other resemblances that I find troubling. Knowing that our chief executive has killed 144 men, for one thing, is almost too hideous to comprehend.
 
 
The Monkey
14:41 / 16.04.02
Alas - not a critique, and not meant snarkily, but plz note that Apartheid was an official government policy in South Africa...hence the phrase "legalized apartheid" is redundant...what the US had was their own version of Apartheid, in the law books. More accurately one could speak of de jure Segregation of the South and the de facto Segregation of the North. I could queue in the rant about the historical misdirection of all American racism upon the South, but won't...it's a long one, and becoming progressively more grudge-y as I spend more time around Yankees and Midwesterners who identify me first as "Southern" (as a Kentucky resident) rather than by other enculturated positions that I have held (which are not manifest in my phenotype, hence deemed secondary, if not imagined).

As for governmental ethics, I think you'll find that pretty much every country in the world has socioeconomic skeletons not merely in the closet, but hanging in the kitchen, the living rooms.... The United States, as the perceived top of the economic pile, is the biggest and most visible target, and also, as a bureacuratic representative government, has the most paper trail pointing to the location of said skeletons. Tinpot dictators and more clannish authoritarian infrastructure have the advantage on the US when it comes to concealing dirty work in that half the time there is no record of the event to delete....
 
 
sleazenation
14:58 / 16.04.02
...And few are interested enough to look at what records there are even when they are served up to them on a plate...
 
 
The Monkey
16:06 / 16.04.02
...hence very few people bother to thrash Belgium about that whole Congolese-slavery, Mister Kurtz thing....
 
 
The Monkey
16:19 / 16.04.02
sleaze,

What I tend to find is that

a) Most people don't want to know. They like the user-friendly our-heroic ancestors gig. It's shiny.
b) Many people want to know, but are looking for a bad guy in the most mustache-twisting sense. So they don't actually want all of the information, both in the sense of not wanting all the data of what led up to a particular case of atrocity, having convieniently provided their own, highly simplified and mono-directional explanation...alarmists over "anti-Christian" violence in Asia being the best example, but also most college-students engaged in that phase of "I-hate-(fill in straw man construct here)-because-they're-responsible-for-all-evil"...and not wanting to here about cases that might tarnish their own tightly-clutched ideological positions. Thus they get to be heroes, with the added bonus of that sense of self-righteousness that comes from the idea that one is struggling against a monolithic foe of pure evil. This manner of thinking is also shiny, but it sells better when hanging out with other "intellectual" types.
 
 
MJ-12
16:32 / 16.04.02
The Big Nasty is also a very comforting belief, in the sense that it leads one to feel, "if we could just get rid of this ONE thing, everything else will sort itself out just fine."
 
 
grant
19:41 / 16.04.02
Damn Nazis.
 
 
alas
20:28 / 17.04.02
monkey--point taken, and thanks for the correction--you're absolutely right and I wrote too quickly, not accurately. But here's where I was coming from: that interesting fact (well it interests me, anyway), that when you want an "embodiment of evil" to kick around in a casual conversation it's always Hitler who comes up--conveniently German, conveniently dead, conveniently not someone any sane person would identify with. So I see it as important to realize the role that other nations played in helping to "create" him, including the US.

So--as I believe you did understand, but I want to be clear--what I wrote was certainly not meant to deflect all blame onto the South for racism/the legacy of slavery in the US OR to imply that other nations aren't equally 'guilty' of crimes against humanity. Both of which I agree with. But--beyond our enormous power in the world (which I do believe gives us greater responsibility and requires that our actions be subjected to stronger scrutiny than Belgium's, say)--it's also that our nations founding principal is freedom _and_ equality: "We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with inherent and inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." We made our bed! But we'd rather look at the bed we made in a museum, behind a velvet rope, than actually, well, lie in it... That's part of the problem: 'that a government of the people, by the people, for the people will not perish from the earth.' Those are the phrases WE have chosen as central to the meaning of this society. And those phrases--troublesome, problematic as they may be and have been--offer to US citizens, and outsiders, the power to criticize our government SEVERELY. ANY departure from those ideals--and of course there will always and inevitably be departures--can be--and in fact must be, criticized by ACTIVE citizens. If we feel we're in danger of having a government that abuses its power as a matter of course, that ignores the fact that its power comes from the consent of the governed it is "our right, it is our duty to throw off such a government." Right. I'm not throwing off the government yet. But I am going to criticize its abuses of power AND not let easy sanctimoniousness (which there's a TON of in this country) about our "justice and liberty for all" have the final word. Call me a lefty. Actually, since this stance hearkens directly back to the Revolutionary era, maybe I'm really a reactionary conservative.

alas.
 
  
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