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How's everyone feeling about the flag thing?

02:35 / 18.09.01

I'm sure y'all know, but in case you don't, since all this happened, the big thing has been to whip out the American flag as a symbol of "Ya can't DO that shit here, DAMMIT. We're UNITED. "

It has caused some mixed emotions in myself. On the one hand I have always been incredibly suspicious of patriotism, so the first I heard about this flag campaign I felt a little uneasy. On the other, I must have said that pledge of allegiance enough times in school that when I'm walking down the street, and I see five American flags blowing in the wind, I do feel some sort of feeling of hope or pride. Which I actually find embarrassing - but thank God my level head prevails and questions patriotism once again.

You folks in the U.S., I know, have been inundated with the flag flying since the attack. How are you feeling and what are you thinking about it? You folks elsewhere thank God are removed so I really want your opinions.

Me, I suspect this is all a propaganda plot to sell me on bombing the hell out of (still more) innocent afghanis, but hey, that must be my lack of "american pride" talking...

Ronald Thomas Clontle

03:25 / 18.09.01

Yr not alone... my sister and I were talking over the weekend about how flags, flags everywhere flags was making us feeling uncomfortable... I can understand why everyone wants to jump on that bandwagon, though I've seen a lot of competitive 'i've got the most/biggest flags' things in some places which is kinda gross.... I don't know, my instinct is that the flags just in some way egg the terrorists on - does that make sense?

I don't think that sudden born-again nationalism is a very good antidote...

Ronald Thomas Clontle

03:27 / 18.09.01

oh yeah... and I saw footage of public squares filled with American flags in Rome, Berlin, London...can someone tell me why exactly there were so many US flags in Rome to begin with?

03:31 / 18.09.01

Hey F to the R-, how are you feeling? Come to my freaked thread, I'm worried about you, having seen all the shit go down and all...

03:56 / 18.09.01

I feel some sort of pride, because I sometimes think that feeling patriotic has nothing to do with whether you are at all happy with what your government is up to at the moment. I tried to explain my feelings on this in an earlier thread on patriotism, and mostly failed; but, even when the U.S. isn't living up to the ol' beacon of freedom, give-me-your-huddled-masses promises, I feel as though the ideals are still present somewhere.

On the other hand, I feel sad when there's a flag hanging in a business owned by someone Middle Eastern, or who could be mistaken for Middle Eastern, because I get the feeling they have to prove they're "American enough." (Kinda deflating that "ideals" claim from last paragraph...)

Ronald Thomas Clontle

04:22 / 18.09.01

quote:Originally posted by Cherry Bomb:
Hey F to the R-, how are you feeling? Come to my freaked thread, I'm worried about you, having seen all the shit go down and all...

I'm feeling better now... Having some distance from it did a lot of good for me, being with my family and some of my closest friends -- I returned to NYC today, and honestly, if it weren't for all the posters for the missing, people in the streets doing charity type things, and all of the flags (not to mention the towers suddenly not being in the distance), it's more or less the same place as it was before. That's a really nice thing, honestly. People are getting through it... Me, personally, at some point over the weekend a switch went off in my head, and I realized that 'hey --- life can't just stop. you've got to be productive, you've got to stop moping around fearing the future, you've got to be alive'. On Saturday night, I walked over to the high school that I graduated from, three blocks from the house I grew up in, and listened to my discman on the swings -- I was listening to REM, and the song 'It's The End of The World As We Know It (and I feel Fine)' came on, and I knew just then that was *exactly* the way that I felt.

I am alive, and you are alive, and we are alive. We owe it to ourselves as much as we do to the people who died over the past few days to act that way. I don't think anyone is any more or less safe than they already were already in the United States... there are so many ways to die suddenly, so many things in day to day life that could just kill you if it went wrong, with or without terrorists. To suddenly start fearing everything that could go wrong is to be in a living death, I think.

[ 18-09-2001: Message edited by: Flux = R to the Izz-ad ]

04:22 / 18.09.01

...the Republican's across the street from my family put up a flag one quarter the size of their home, spending some 45 minutes attaching it to the porch...so I sat in front of it late at night and tried to feel anything from it...thought it was pretty fake and looked like a big target to me...or better yet a big logo for something I don't buy.

05:49 / 18.09.01

This whole FLAGG thing has been giving me a serious case of the...

's

I mean c'mon!!! some dude passes me by with a huge one attached to his Bike... my first thought was "is he getting paid for that?"

But then again it seems like such an easy abdication of personal inspection of the phoneomenia of recient events...

Then there's the instances of Them being used to ward of potentioal abuse & race violence.... even in the cities that Pride themselves on diversity...

Some frineds & I are working on producing World Flags in hops of stimulating a shif of focus...
... perhaps even the to fund the wadging of PEACE...

or that's the idealest in me...

GAWD... I can see the fall fashions now...

06:40 / 18.09.01

the flag thing is very different in england: union jacks and george crosses are so associated with the extreme right-wing that only middle england villages can fly them without suspicion. i've seen national flags flown around most countries in mainland europe and scandinavia and it's not felt threatening, but the american flag just makes me remember all the things i hate about america. thing is, i suppose people want to be seen to be caring, but as someone wrote the other day - the americans joining the army because they wanna 'do something' to help would be better off joining a rescue service.

and most people i know here think pledging allegience to the flag is very, very wierd.

08:27 / 18.09.01

I couldn't resist. Just in from "a safe habor of conservative thoughts and ideals." http://thulsawest.blogspot.com/
quote:The Flag represents the country of the United States, treat it with respect:

* The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing.
* It is flown upside down only as a distress signal.
* The flag should not be used as a drapery, or for covering a speakers desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general. Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes.
* The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.
* The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose.
* It should not be embroidered, printed or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use.
* Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard
* The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, fireman, policeman and members of patriotic organizations.
* The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.
* The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
* When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms.
* To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously.
* The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary.

Carl Johnson

Ganesh

08:27 / 18.09.01

I've never quite understood the flag thing, anyway - why repeatedly pledge 'allegance' to a piece of material? - but my partner pointed out, quite reasonably, that we in the UK are asked to entreat God to 'save' the outdated and useless Royal Family, which is possibly even sillier.

Several of my usual Internet sites (and I'm talking gay fetish sites) have replaced their front pages with enormous flags and numerous mailing lists, in the immediate aftermath of the bombing itself, relayed messages along the lines of 'Now, Whatever Your Feelings About It, It's Time To Fly The Flag'.

I can see the reasoning behind wanting to promote some sense of 'unity' behind a strong symbol but all this apparent competitiveness (my flag's bigger than your flag, etc.) seems bizarre, a strange priority indeed.

08:27 / 18.09.01

I'm slightly uncomfortable with the flag thing, as I hate any displays of "love it or leave it" blind patriotism. However, I think the flag thing is being embraced by a lot of people of middle eastern descent, in order to shroud themselves in the symbol of America and protect themselves that way from violence. Which isn't a bad thing. I know if I was Afghani-American I'd be flying a shitload of American flags outside my home and business. Also, hopefully all this flag worship won't lead the republicans to propose another fucking anti-flag burning amendement to the constitution.

<Tangent>
watching news programs about Afghanistan and the environment there last night, footage was shown og Afghanis burning an American flag. My girlfriend immediately asked me, where do they get all these US flags to burn? It's not like they can walk into WalMart, buy a flag and burn it. You probably have to save up for a long time, and wait paitently while your flag shipped to you so that you can burn it. Either that, or the middle east is filled with factories manufacturing flags for the sole purpose of burning them.

She's so much more clever than me <*swoon*>

</Tangent>

08:27 / 18.09.01

That's a good point actually .. maybe the ..er.. flag-making industry keeps a warehouse full of US Flags in all America loving/hating nations and has a kind of distribuiton deal with local shops to ship 'em out at times like this.

But anyway..

All that pledge of alligence / flag worshipping bollocks you have over in the States strikes me as a nasty, fascistic leftover from the Cold War and is very, very silly and outdated indeed.

One of those things that i hoped was slowly dying away, but will now probably be back with more force than ever..

"Dumb Flag Scum!" as a bunch of angry, shirtless Welshmen once repeatedly shouted.

08:27 / 18.09.01

the flag thing is very different in england: union jacks and george crosses are so associated with the extreme right-wing that only middle england villages can fly them without suspicion.

The same in France. If you wave the French flag on your property, people immediatly suspect you of being NF (National Front). For those in the US, the National Front is a bigoted political party, to say the least. They spout rhetoric like "France For The French!!". Moreover, I think the French are still a bit stigmatized from the whole M.P.L.A./Algeria mess from the 70's.

And I recon that the Union Jack isn't flown because, superficially, you know that you are British. But in your heart-of-hearts, you know that your Scottish. Or Welsh. Or Cornish. Or Irish. Whatever the case may be. The Union Jack represents a part of your heritage & location, but not the entirity of it. But anyways.....

So, yeah, it's making me sick. I wish there was a better way to show solidarity & respect for the grieving & the dead other than waving some fucking US flags around. I'm with PATricky in calling out for a better, more universal symbol of mourning. Something a damn sight better than this Nationalistic bullshit.

And N3tbansh33, the thing about the flag looking like a big target, fuckin' brilliantly put! You just made my day and it's not even 7 AM (CST) yet.

And yo Cherry!!

Has the landlord bothered to fix the damn bathtub faucet yet?

10:37 / 18.09.01

You could feel a very real difference crossing the border from Canada to the States, and a large part of that feeling of passing into the Twilight Zone was all the flags. And I'm talking before the WTC tragedy. I can't even imagine what it's like now.

10:40 / 18.09.01

quote:The same in France. If you wave the French flag on your property, people immediatly suspect you of being NF (National Front).

I don't think so, well at least it is not as clear cut as that. The French flag is a symbol of the revolution, of liberte, egalite, fraternite. Like many other symbols it has been co-opted by various forces. The mindset of the FN and most other forms of nationalism/patriotism/right-wing-ness reminds me more of the the slogan the 'vichy' regime brought in to replace that of the revolution. Instead of liberte, egalite, fratenite they had travail, famille, patrie.

Ganesh

10:42 / 18.09.01

In contrast to the US's solemnity on the matter, the Union Jack seems to be enjoying a renaissance within fashion, as frivolous, sequinned clothing decoration - often in a variety of colours. I've seen several pale blue 'Sliding Albion' versions adorning French Connection's t-shirt range, for example.

11:06 / 18.09.01

quote: And I recon that the Union Jack isn't flown because, superficially, you know that you are British. But in your heart-of-hearts, you know that your Scottish. Or Welsh. Or Cornish. Or Irish. Whatever the case may be. The Union Jack represents a part of your heritage & location, but not the entirity of it. But anyways.....

I don't really see the point in lumping yourself into these kind of artificial containers. I am Scottish. I am Irish. Whatever. I suppose I have seen so many people behave stupidly because of some notion of nationalsim or patriotism that it just annoys me.
The sooner we can distance ourselves from these artificial things known as nations the better. Cultures great lets keep em...nations fuck em.

11:14 / 18.09.01

On the other hand, I feel sad when there's a flag hanging in a business owned by someone Middle Eastern, or who could be mistaken for Middle Eastern, because I get the feeling they have to prove they're "American enough." – doubting thomas

That's why we have flags up here at work. My boss is Pakistani and terrified. (Mind you, he's not admitting this...)

And as I was walking up Ninth Avenue in Manhattan to deliver one of my lovely 8x10 B&W photos to a bartender pal (who paid me in whiskey...life does go on!), I noticed two Afghani restaraunts, completely empty, with huge flags in their windows next to prayers for peace & tolerance.

Ganesh

11:21 / 18.09.01

Are people worried that not displaying the flag - or even not displaying a big enough flag - might soon lead to allegations of 'anti-Americanism'?

Ronald Thomas Clontle

11:30 / 18.09.01

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
Are people worried that not displaying the flag - or even not displaying a big enough flag - might soon lead to allegations of 'anti-Americanism'?

oh, i don't know, probably not. from my personal experience, it seems like a highly conformist sort of thing, like 'everyone else is doing it, I guess I should too'... I don't even think a lot of the people are being terribly nationalistic...

my mom was jumping on the bandwagon quite a bit over the weekend, I was with her searching all over for flag thingies...

---off topic---christ, Ganesh! yr nearly at 900 posts!----

11:41 / 18.09.01

ganesh - umm, it probably will, but could one then make the arguement that it's not the size of your flag, but what you do with it, that counts....

14:39 / 18.09.01

I was more uncomfortable with the wearing of red, white and blue last Friday. Seemed like I was back in high school - not a happy time for me.

Someone put a flag up in the men's room here.

I've got a booklet on proper flag display and care I feel like xeroxing. You know you're not supposed to leave it up at night without a light on it?

15:35 / 18.09.01

i've seen a couple of news reports where muslims have been prominently displaying flags as a protective measure against racism -- aligning themselves with america and not their hoome countries.

slightly off-topic, but i always feel a bit disturbed when i see flags, anyway. the union jack has been "reclaimed" as a fashion icon, but it still has so many bad connotations, and i feel the same way about the stars 'n' stripes...

16:51 / 18.09.01

i often feel like hanging my puerto rican flag out of my window in response to the deluge of american flags. the PR flag is the only one that i can truly pledge allegience to, even though it was bastardized from its original, revolutionary form when the US invaded. the color blue that's currently on the flag, for example, used to be much lighter, but the US wanted the flag to look more like the american one, thus the navy blue. ::sigh:: i haven't had the guts to put the flag outside, though... don't want to antagonize any of the few crazed americanists on campus with a display of original, individualist thought.

[ 18-09-2001: Message edited by: surblimity ]

18:19 / 18.09.01

As Haus might say, perhaps I am photographing fairies... but I started to think to myself, why do I assume that all these flags mean This Means War? Maybe these are united in sorrow, not necessarily anger. Maybe for an Arab-American, hanging the flag is a genuine expression of sadness for one's own country, even if mixed with fears for personal safety. I would love for every nation's flag to symbolize each nation's commitment to world peace and understanding & everyone to fly them, celebrating difference and unity in the same gesture.

Or I could have fairies on the brain. Occupational hazard maybe, the theater company I work with is mostly drag queens... but that's another story.

19:00 / 18.09.01

I was having a discussion with my girlfriend's father on the topic... more or less.

What surfaced from it was the realisation that a "truth" could be found in the spontanious act of millions of people donating Blood. Interpreted it could be read as "the desire to help"

When we came to the topic of the flag I was pointing out how it was a phonomena that was purely mediated by the Media. Thus if the media is so united on this view... we opened the closest newpaper to find HUGE full page pictures of the raising of the flag amidst the rubble, as well as a page 2 feature on FLAG ettiquette... then there is SOMEONE or something that has a vested interest in it. Newspapers are still advertising tools as thus are edited by the marketability.
This same thing could be seen in how SO-MANY widow displays are now featuring the flag... with rather early Thankgiving themes... I guess the halloween skulls & witches wouldn't go over too well with a flag tagged on.

19:52 / 18.09.01

It seems to me that a propensity of flags not only benefits the flagmakers and retailers (i am guessing the Stars and Stripes hasn't been distributed freely on street corners), but evokes rather chilling images of fascist rallies. The flag is, after all, the symbol of domination par excellence.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:53 / 19.09.01

I know this is kind of a knee-jerk reaction as one who opposes nationalism, but, yeah, the whole flag thing scares the shit out of me. Especially when the Daily Mail (very right-wing British newspaper which, due to my job as a press monitor, I HAVE to read every night) prints a big US flag on the back with instructions to put it in your window... anyone remember the Gulf, when the Sun had that big union jack with the little squaddie's face in the middle? Bill Hicks: "My daddy died for that flag. / Really? I bought mine in K-Mart."

09:53 / 19.09.01

quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
What surfaced from it was the realisation that a "truth" could be found in the spontanious act of millions of people donating Blood. Interpreted it could be read as "the desire to help"

That's funny. I was sort of thinking that the flag thing was not dissimilar to the blood thing. People feeling pretty helpless and wanting to do *something* and it's not like there was time for everyone to agree on a universal symbol for what people were feeling, not that everyone was even feeling the same thing. But then here is this available artifact... I really feel like a lot of people grabbed for it, and it could really mean anything.

Also observed on the drive home: a Union Jack, a Canadian flag, a Mexican flag.

[ 19-09-2001: Message edited by: Persephone ]

autopsy of a rockstar

09:53 / 19.09.01

I dunno. This Salon.com article nailed it pretty succinctly for me. It's not that I have anything against the flag. It's just that self-proclaimed "patriots" make me damn nervous.

quote: For most of my life, the American flag has been the cultural property of people I can't stand: right-wingers, jingoists, know-nothing zealots. It's something that hypocritical politicians wrap themselves in. It's something that certain legislators would make it a crime to burn -- a position that's an assault on the very freedom that the flag represents. It's something brandished at times like these by idiots who say things like, "Let's go over there and burn those rag-heads!"

09:53 / 19.09.01

Flags flags flags. how to say. I work in a Naturual Foods Co-op in Atlanta... it's a day job that keeps me in my theatre habit.

Friday, a co-worker came in to drop off a flyer for a PEACE RALLY to be held the next day at a park near downtown. I put on on the community bulliten board, and per GM approval, taped one onto my Info desk. this guy, who comes in every day made a stink about how the co-op should not support this, by having it taped to the desk. I remarked how 'if someone came up to me with a flyer labled 'let's kill all the arabians' we'd not put it up, but that this seemed to be something good for the community, and given that it was like 18 hours away, word needed to get out.'
he didn't care, and as a member of the co-op wanted me to take it down. now, mind you, over 33,000 people OWN the store, and it's just one prick being, well, a prick.
so we not only had to take it down, but take the one from the community bulliten board off as well for 'safety' reasons of the staff. what a crock
cowardly it was

09:53 / 19.09.01

Flags flags flags. how to say. I work in a Naturual Foods Co-op in Atlanta... it's a day job that keeps me in my theatre habit.

Friday, a co-worker came in to drop off a flyer for a PEACE RALLY to be held the next day at a park near downtown. I put on on the community bulliten board, and per GM approval, taped one onto my Info desk. this guy, who comes in every day made a stink about how the co-op should not support this, by having it taped to the desk. I remarked how 'if someone came up to me with a flyer labled 'let's kill all the arabians' we'd not put it up, but that this seemed to be something good for the community, and given that it was like 18 hours away, word needed to get out.'
he didn't care, and as a member of the co-op wanted me to take it down. now, mind you, over 33,000 people OWN the store, and it's just one prick being, well, a prick.
so we not only had to take it down, but take the one from the community bulliten board off as well for 'safety' reasons of the staff. what a crock
cowardly it was

09:53 / 19.09.01

Grendix: wow... that so totally typifies what;s happening to the nation/World at large... it begs the question of who the reaction ( if ANY) would be to a flag in those places.

quote:
Persephone said: People feeling pretty helpless and wanting to do *something* and it's not like there was time for everyone to agree on a universal symbol for what people were feeling, not that everyone was even feeling the same thing. But then here is this available artifact...

This is also something that's surfacing . . . lend's another resonance with the WORLD FLAG concept I M O

[ 19-09-2001: Message edited by: PATricky ]

09:53 / 19.09.01

quote:Originally posted by Buk:

I don't really see the point in lumping yourself into these kind of artificial containers. I am Scottish. I am Irish. Whatever. I suppose I have seen so many people behave stupidly because of some notion of nationalsim or patriotism that it just annoys me.
The sooner we can distance ourselves from these artificial things known as nations the better. Cultures great lets keep em...nations fuck em.

*round of applause*