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tom-karika nukes it from orbit

17:38 / 17.09.01

I'm getting really annoyed. I can find no info that is not from controlled western news agencies, or mad conspiracy theorists, or just thinly-masked speculation. I'm thrashing around in the dark, trying to find solid facts, and not just ones about counting planes or fire engines. Reasons!. Where are they? help! it makes me sort of scared.

17:41 / 17.09.01

Try the "Chomsky on the Bombings" thread on this page.

18:34 / 17.09.01

Oh, that's right, I forgot. Chomsky's out combing the wreckage of the twin towers looking for clues and tracking down leads. So silly of me.

Whatever you think of Chomsky's response to 9/11, you can't say it fit Mr. Karika's criteria for "solid facts" about the events. He has as much of an axe to grind if not more so than CNN, CBS, NBC and company. It is very easy to explain huge, historical events if you have only one lens to view things through.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

18:44 / 17.09.01

Solid facts in this case are somewhat hard to come by. Chomsky's not a bad place to start, because he's chipping away at the biases and trying to make some sense, but not one has access to raw data outside the investigating teams, and obviously they're not going to show their cards.

19:17 / 17.09.01

I don't think you'll get hard facts until all the tons of rubble are carted away wheelbarrow-load by wheelbarrow-load, all the possible bodies are found, all the phone calls traced, all the conversations reconstructed, all the cofessions are heard, all the lies sorted from the truths....

19:36 / 17.09.01

Stratfor has been a pretty good place to check for info and analysis so far, especially international reaction.

09:06 / 18.09.01

Stratfor is nice.

The catch is... after something like this, every source of news feels biased. There don't seem to be any such things as straightforward facts anymore... they're all loaded with potential death, fear and loathing of one aspect or another of the shit we are now collectively /in/.

tom-karika nukes it from orbit

09:06 / 18.09.01

What makes me really scared is that I think that the BBC newsreader may be lying to me.

[ 18-09-2001: Message edited by: Mr.Karika ]

Ganesh

09:06 / 18.09.01

I know what you mean about 'solid facts'. In the course of a day or two, the suspicion that bin Laden was responsible crystallised into apparent fact, with many mentions of "90% certainty", "hard evidence", "proof", etc. Admittedly, I've slowed down my news consumption over the weekend, but I haven't yet read or heard exactly what this 'hard evidence' consists of. We seem to be glossing over the whole 'proof' thing in our eagerness to leap straight to retribution.

Have I missed something? Has there been any explanation yet of why we're so sure it was bin Laden? Has evidence been produced that's harder than circumstancial?

09:06 / 18.09.01

No, there's been no "official" proof produced as of yet. The government has been saying he is a "prime suspect" but they're just trying to rally the American people around a certain evil figure. Which makes a fair amount of sense< I suppose, and bin Laden is a reasonable enough suspect given his assets and high profile. Other groups that've mentioned incluce an Egyptian based group, Islamic Jihad, and Iraqi sponsored terrorists. It seems hard to believe such a concentrated effort was the product of a home-grown, small group. But who knows at this point.

Signs that point to international conspiracy:

Germany Investigates Suspicious Short-Selling in days Before attack

Ganesh

09:06 / 18.09.01

My point is, we've moved to the position whereby the need to visit swift 'punishment' on someone, anyone has apparently become much, much more important than establishing exactly which 'someone' actually did it. Not only have we decided outright that 'prime suspect' = 'culprit', but we may end up bombing a nation over it.

10:56 / 18.09.01

I totally agree with you Ganesh. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

However, even if he wasn't associated with the bombings, if he wasn't before, Osama bin Laden is now the official poster boy for multinational terrorism and the US will, if not sooner, than later, attempt to take him out. Hopefully, this will happen through the Taliban handing him over to a world court of some kind <naive></naive>. The US, according to this articlehas been engaged in covert operations against the man and his followers since 1998.

Last night, I saw a special on "60 Minutes 2" (a CBS newsmagazine program) that included footage shot two months ago of a correspondent touring Afghanistan with an associate of bin Laden's. Aside from some dire foreshadowing of 9/11 events, the program did an excellent job of educating American's why Afghanis hate us. This included interviewing Afghan prep school boys (not girls of course) who had bin Laden screensavers on their computers. The party line appears to be, "for every Osama killed, ten Osamas will take his place."

Morlock - groupie for hire

15:31 / 18.09.01

First of all, Mr K., there are no unbiased sources, anywhere. At least nothing consistent. Anybody with the motivation to provide information is either trying to make some money or trying to make a point. Either of those will screw objectivity any day of the week.The only way to catch a glimpse of the truth is by checking as many sources as possible and looking for the overlap. Good hunting.

As for the bit about punishing without proof, it's happening, it's scary, and it's not the first time. Another prime example of the media whipping itself into a frenzy over the story of the week/month/year and taking a handful of more impressionable members of the public with it. Meanwhile, politicians around the world are falling over themselves in order to look 'proactive' or whatever, painting themselves into corners simply because stepping back and waiting for results doesn't make good soundbites.