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Racism and Brixton - and perhaps just racism in general

 
 
angel
16:54 / 09.04.02
Posted originally by Haus:

However, I would with respect suggest that posts excusing oneself from a perceived charge of racism (in particular by saying "It's not just the blacks! It's the Eastern Europeans as well!" Hostage to fortune, there, Angel sweetheart) rather sacrifice the point of Flyboy's post (which was, inevitably as a Flyboy post, hand-wringing, liberal and arguably a case of political correctness gone mad, natch), which as I understand it is that social constructions create an apparently ineluctable corollary between the blackness of Brixton (especially now that asylum seekers have created the exciting possibility that even white people can be black) and its crime

Sorry have absolutely no web-fu.

*******************************************************************

Ummm, with honest respect Haus. I went to uni, but did performing arts, not philosophy and so I really don't understand the language you are using (honestly). Can you simplify this so I can understand what you are saying. I've read it a couple of times and think I have worked out what you mean, but I would love you to clarify so I'm not wandering into the desert on a spurious tangent. In particular this bit: ... social constructions create an apparently ineluctable corollary between the blackness of Brixton and its crime.


When I was talking about Yardies and Eastern Europeans it was merely because these are two groups I come across (or should that be accosted by) and are easily identifible when I am walking around and walking to my home in Brixton. I honestly don't know how else I could have described them. They are not the only criminal element in Brixton, but they are a part of it.

I feel like I've been taken out of context, but can't get my brain to clarify or move around to a better way of speaking.

Or maybe a better question for looking at this is: Is there a non-racist way of discussing crime in Brixton, when there are racial groups participating in criminal activities. (And now *sigh* to clarify that I don't mean that I think people from these racial groups are the only people participating in crime in Brixton or that to participate in crime in Brixton criminals can only belong to the two racial groups previously mentioned)

Does any of that make sense?
 
 
w1rebaby
17:03 / 09.04.02
It's possible to (a) discuss crime without reference to "race" and (b) discuss "race" without being racist. It's reference to "race" out of context that is the problem, indicating as it does a hidden agenda (for the record, that's not something I'm accusing you of).

Not making any reference to race and then being accused of being some sort of crypto-racist because of it, though, is bizarre and insulting.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
07:35 / 10.04.02
angel - i think your comments *were* taken out of context, although you did leave yourself a little open to misinterpretation.

another point: if i get on a bus in hackney and i see a gang of [black] teenage boys get on, i want to get off. does this make me a racist? bear in mind:

- nearly every single time a gang gets on a bus the following happens: the driver is refused payment, is talked to like ze is a piece of shit; there is a fight; one or more members of the gang attempt to intimidate the rest of the passengers as much as possible.

[black] girl gangs can be pretty nasty, too. i will also avoid them if i can.

i have never seen a white gang in hackney. where i grew up, in suburban london, the population was almost exclusively white. gangs of [white] schoolkids made my life hell. so i'm not a racist, then? i just do not like bullying behaviour. if i saw a white gang - or even, as does happen, two or three young white men get on the bus, i am wary. often i get homophobic abuse from them.

does this beg the question: why are there black gangs in hackney? is it 'wrong' for me to notice that they are black? or would it be stupid and/or naive of me not to acknowledge this and the wider debate of disaffected young, black men?

i am not even sure if there's a point to what i've just written.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:41 / 10.04.02
I really think you should be talking to Flyboy about the base philosophy here, Angel.

Ironically, my point was that Flyboy's suggestion that when people talk about Brixton in terms of being "rough" or "dangerous" or "dodgy", they may be falling into a trap he has observed elsewhere where these terms are used as a euphemism for "black", and conflates blackness with criminality, in a social construction that not only criminalises black people, but also assumes that blackness is by its nature criminal, causing all sorts of further problems (one of the results of which is probably, realistically, crime) had received a number of responses which essentially said, "well, I'm not racist", which, while good to know, was not exactly the point. Whether Flyboy's political correctness had in fact gone mad at that point rather fell by the wayside.

I picked up your comment that Brixton was a multi-cultural society, which listed many different nationalities living and working together, and then picked out "yardies" (who are, as you pointed out, primarily black. An interesting question would be whether they are also a *metaphor* for black, hence the "yardie-style cup of tea, anyone" syndrome) and Eastern Europeans as the most visible malefactors, because it was, as I said, a hostage to fortune.

btw, nnother interesting thing about Yardies - from Vincenzo Ruggeiro, A drug culture without a drug economy (1993):

A dealer suggested that even so-called "Yardies" (alleged professional criminals and illegal immigrants from Jamaica) would find it hard to put some kind of order into what seems a very low-profile and confused economy (Headley, 1992). He hypothesised:

The Yardies don't have a chance to develop their business because other gangs of white professional criminals would not allow them to. 1 also suspect that the white gangs themselves fuelled the panic about the Yardies, because they saw them as dangerous competitors. They must have informed the police, who in fact got information about the Yardies that they would never have picked up by themselves.

This informant added that traditional white groups already involved in the underground economy contributed to the creation of the Yardie phenomenon and the scare attached to it. He concluded that'this country is a bastion of racism', and the blacks are nor even given the opportunity to improve in alternative or illegal businesses.


This is no doubt out of date by now, but it presents some interesting avenues for consideration...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:11 / 10.04.02
Actually, is there a case for moving this to the Head Shop/Switchboard?
 
 
angel
09:42 / 11.04.02
Haus - there is a case for taking this to the Head Shop, I was wary of posting there becase I was concerned it would be taken into the depths of theoretical language, because then I can't participate even when I want to.

SFD - Sure, I can see how easily it is to take my comments out of context, I just thought it would be too simplistic to do so.

Haus - I take your point about the phrase "Yardie-style", but I was at a loss of the correct terms to explain the well known presence of dealers on Cold Harbour Lane, and I have most often heard of them described as Yardies. That said I was also trying not just to just lay everything at the feet of the Yardies, because maybe they are not the only presence on that street, and there are lots of people dealing on different streets and I wouldn't have a clue who, if anyone, they are aligned to/with.

Will post more later
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:23 / 11.04.02
Angel - take your point about the Head Shop.

However, could I ask what your intentions for this thread *are*? Because it seems to be becoming a place where non-racist bonafides can be offered and defended. Which is fine - not really interested in calling anyone a racist, unless of course they are a racist. Hence "hostage to fortune", not "instance of racism".
 
 
Bear
10:32 / 11.04.02
""hostage to fortune", not "instance of racism"

Aren't they episodes of the A-team?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:34 / 11.04.02
You ever notice how BA never gets to set the agenda?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:36 / 11.04.02
Perhaps a useful thing would be to discuss how we can talk about issues which involve race without *being racist*, in a situation where we can be racist either by taking race as the only factor in the issue, or by ignoring it when it is clearly a contributing factor.

I think I may also be talking about 'perceptions of race'.
 
 
Fist Fun
11:33 / 11.04.02
Well how can they when Easyjet constantly undercut them...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
02:22 / 12.04.02
I'm in no way interested in the whole issue of whether of not people here qualify as "racists" - alas covered this idea very well in another thread, which I don't have the link to to hand. Basically, if you're white in the UK, you're benefitting from and being complicit in racism on a day to day basis, deal with your own complicity in that - no easy thing, but adopting an "I'm no racist, I'm one of the *good* guys/girls" tone helps nobody, except your own sense of self.

What I am interested in is the way our own individual day to day behaviour interacts with the issue of race and what we can do about that.

Now, as a disclaimer, I don't live in Hackney and I never have - but I have taken the bus from Cambridge Heath Road up through Hackney on many occasions, and it simply has not been the case in my experience that every "gang" - by which I assume sfd means three or more - of black teenage young men cause trouble every or almost every time they get on a bus. Now, admittedly sfd has more experience of the area than me and so I'm willing to bow to that, but... what's more interesting to me is the use of the word "gang" here. Is it simply a synonym for "group" or "bunch", or is the implication being here that the black teenagers in question are a 'proper' gang, like maybe the Stokey Marauders or something? And if so, how would you tell?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
02:28 / 12.04.02
I also just wanted to make the point that the "I feel threatened by ___ demographic" argument - which hasn't been unique to sfd here, and which may in all cases be more or less understandable due to an individual's past experience - even so, it shouldn't really serve as a kind of justification for certain ways of thinking: fear is a very real motivating factor in the lives of Dail Mail readers as well, it can't be a get-out clause for us "good people" too...
 
 
w1rebaby
09:12 / 12.04.02
what's more interesting to me is the use of the word "gang" here. Is it simply a synonym for "group" or "bunch", or is the implication being here that the black teenagers in question are a 'proper' gang, like maybe the Stokey Marauders or something? And if so, how would you tell?

Is this a question directed at sfd? Or are we discussing the general use of the word "gang"?

I would say that the word "gang" implies a larger scale, "proper gang", conspiracy element to a bunch of teenagers hanging about that is paranoid and yes, maybe racist (though I think it also has a lot to do with fear of youth). It's an assumption that they're not just kicking around, they're plotting to stab and rob you, they're all like that, you can't escape them etc. They're not individuals, they're part of a growing tide of criminality and lawlessness and lack of respect for authority, possibly in a Yardie style.

That's just the way I use the word "gang", though. To other people it may have very different connotations.
 
 
No star here laces
10:11 / 12.04.02
Well, to lump in with another set of unsubstantiated observations: I get the bus through Hackney twice a day, including changing buses at either Mare St or Dalston Junction. My partner lives in Dalston so I'm frequently walking around there late at night. I also drink/hang out in that area a lot.

1.) I've never seen any group of young black males intimidating or threatening anyone in Hackney - all violence is on an individual level

2.) I have seen a group of young white males intimidate (with racial abuse) a conductor on that bus route

3.) In two years of living in London and spending a fair proportion of my leisure time in Brixton and Hackney I have never been the subject of any form of intimidation or threat from any group of young black men, however I have been physically assaulted and abused on numerous occasions by individuals or groups of young white men

So I think it's bullshit, basically. The intimidating-ness of groups of young black men is entirely psychological and bears no basis in fact. Particularly as any statistics will tell you that the majority of violence perpetrated by young black males is towards other young black males.

And if you want further substantiation for this - when was the last time you saw a group of drunk young black guys hanging around on the street causing trouble? I'd vote for "never" whereas this is a commonplace, and realistically dangerous situation where young white men are concerned.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:19 / 12.04.02
In Hackney, where I live, I've been mugged (more than just the once) by black guys. However, in Shoreditch, where I work, I've been hassled exclusively by white guys (yep- drunk ones. But always within running distance of my workplace). And I DO feel intimidated by "gangs" of either- ESPECIALLY when drunk. But I imagine a bunch of US all pissed up on a bus, even while behaving (of course) completely non-aggressively, would be quite intimidating to an outsider.
Just thought I'd do some fence-sitting.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:22 / 12.04.02
In two years of living in London and spending a fair proportion of my leisure time in Brixton and Hackney I have never been the subject of any form of intimidation or threat from any group of young black men, however I have been physically assaulted and abused on numerous occasions by individuals or groups of young white men

Same here, and that's eighteen years' worth of South London. Actually, I think once I was kicked in the head by a kid who was part of a mixed group. But that's the only time I can think of.

I've been hassled by individuals but never groups, and I've had more hassle from individual white people.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:04 / 12.04.02
"So I think it's bullshit, basically. The intimidating-ness of groups of young black men is entirely psychological and bears no basis in fact"

thanks, lyra. nice to know that what i have seen and heard first hand is actually all a figment of my racist imagination.
 
 
No star here laces
12:33 / 12.04.02
Well, that's a particularly harsh way to put it, but yes, sfd, I believe that to be the truth. Young black men are very culturally other to you, and you have been inculcated with the belief that they are dangerous so it's fully understandable that you think this way. But I still think it's wrong, and don't mind saying it.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
12:40 / 12.04.02
wow. this is bizarre. lyra - I HAVE *SEEN* GANGS INTIMIDATING AND THREATENING BUS DRIVERS AND CONDUCTORS, REFUSING TO PAY FARES, EVERYONE ELSE HAVING TO SIT AND WAIT OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR THE POLICE TO ARRIVE BECAUSE OF TROUBLE. I HAVE SEEN A GANG BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF ANOTHER PASSENGER. it is *not* an 'unsubstantiated observation'. i have fucking seen it! DON'T FUCKING PATRONISE ME!
 
 
Shortfatdyke
12:42 / 12.04.02
[with apologies for all the capital letters. will figure out italics asap....]

apologies for my complete loss of temper there. i am just completely insulted here. i'm not making this shit up....
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:44 / 12.04.02
SFD - a white gang or a black gang? Or a mixed gang? Or is there a racial component, as discussed above, in the word "gang"? Or did you simply feel that, within the context, there was no need to append a reference to their skin colour?

And while we're all pondering that - calm down, you two. Shouting never solved anything. Well, except the problem of communicating over wide spaces.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:45 / 12.04.02
Oh, italics are (i)word(/i), except with pointy brackets < > instead of normal brackets.
 
 
No star here laces
13:25 / 12.04.02
SFD - what you said, specifically, was:

another point: if i get on a bus in hackney and i see a gang of [black] teenage boys get on, i want to get off. does this make me a racist? bear in mind:

- nearly every single time a gang gets on a bus the following happens: the driver is refused payment, is talked to like he is a piece of shit; there is a fight; one or more members of the gang attempt to intimidate the rest of the passengers as much as possible.


To which I would say 1) I simply don't believe that every time a group of young black men get on your bus they insult the bus driver, intimidate old ladies and steal candy from babies.

And 2) even if your experience has been that you have seen lots of crime involving young black men that does not mean that overall, all groups of young black men are like that - maybe you've just been unlucky.

And finally, 3) is it possible that the groups of young black men and groups of young white men are behaving very similarly, but because one group is black you perceive their behaviour to be more threatening than it actually is? If a large, 'street'-looking black man approaches you in the street at night, do you feel intimidated? You clearly do, so you might report that as 'intimidating behaviour' when in fact he just wanted to ask you for a light...
 
 
higuita
13:49 / 12.04.02
In Birmingham, where I live, there seems to be a fair split. White, black, asian - the correlating factor seems to be the young male thing more than anything. It happens, and you'll notice more of one particular 'group' depending on which bit of the city you're in.
As for intimidation, any large bloke approaching a woman at night for whatever reason needs to have his head examined, and colour is totally irrelevant at that point. Christ, I don't like being approached by anyone late at night. Shouldn't be the way it is, but it is.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:45 / 17.04.02
Just a quick freshener...

I was in Hackney (Bethnal Green, to be exact) last Sunday, and found myself dealing with a bunch of white males, West Ham fans at a guess, certainly a fair skinhead contingent, maybe 50 or 60 of them also at a guess, tearing down the main drag being intimidating, shouting, causing aggro and so on. I and the friend I was with removed ourselves from the vicinity pretty sharpish, but presumably things, teetering on the edge of going very nasty, did, as various police cars, sirens blaring, passed us on the way back to where we were going.

Now, I have to ask myself who was intimidating whom in this situation. Was it ultimately the fault of the black gangs for creating a climate of fear in which the only way to feel safe is to organise into large groups?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:08 / 21.07.02
I've been reminded of this thread recently by a number of things, but mostly this:

The word "Yardie" was not originally coined to indicate a gun-toting crack dealer, as it has come to mean in the British press. "Yard" means "home" in Jamaica, and so we are all Yardies.

From here
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:42 / 21.07.02
ah, glad this has been resurrected. now i have calmed down (and learnt how to use bold and italics!) i can answer a few things that were raised some time ago.

i've recently moved house, so don't travel through lower clapton every day as i did a few months back. but when i did, i noticed there were hassles nearly every day on the buses and after a while i realised these hassles were being caused nearly exclusively by young black males, in groups of maybe ten or fifteen. a gang as such? i didn't feel particularly like asking them. as soon as i noticed their race, i wondered if i was racist. i looked into it a bit more and found that the black community is aware of there being a problem with young black males - disaffected, badly served by the education system (or not served at all, exclusion rates being disproportionately high), fuck all chance of a proper job. to ignore this problem would be patronising, i think, and counter productive - such as the graffitti i saw on a bus the other day: "black people have an attitude problem". i wanted to change it to "some black people are pissed off. i don't blame them". i see a lot of examples of racism around me and i probably don't spot half as many as there are. i am not half as sussed on racism as i could be - i'm white, i do my best to be aware but it's inevitable that i still have some bullshit ideas and miss a lot of stuff. i'm open to being educated.

stating "all the gang trouble i have witnessed has involved young afro-carribean men" is not the same as stating "all young black men are trouble makers". there's a world of difference. sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "lalala i won't hear this because it doesn't fit my world view" is not going to help any body.

and haus - the skinhead gang you saw in bethnal green would no doubt claim to be good patriots defending 'our' streets. but as far as i'm concerned, i remove myself from any situation where people are causing trouble or being intimidating. there is not a 'climate of fear' in clapton/hackney from gangs of young black men. these are kids of school age who are flexing their muscles - either verbally (as the two bus conductors i saw being harassed last week or the bus drivers who get threatened if they ask for payment of fares will testify) or physically - as the somalian bloke who had the shit beaten out of him by the gang in dalston would agree. but it is a problem that needs to be addressed.
 
  
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