BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Temple >

Feng Shui and The Ba Gua: Nine is the magic number.

  
 
grant
20:23 / 08.04.02
In Greece or somewhere nearby, they (them old esotericists) sort of decided that there were four elements that made up everything: earth, air, water, and fire.

But in China, they figured there were FIVE.

Wood
Fire
Earth
Metal
and
Water

Unlike the Western system, everything isn't just made of combinations of these elements - the elements themselves are transforming into one another. Wood expands outward into Fire, Metal melts into Water, that sort of thing.

These elements are also subject to the Eight Changes: the Ba Gua. Everything that is, say the Chinese, tends to move through nine stages of being. These can be summed up in the Eight Trigrams (of I Ching fame) and the center, which is blank. It's useful, maybe, to think of each "number" of the Ba Gua as a "station" (in the sense, maybe, of stations of the cross).

That article linked to above is about the martial art, ba gua, based on the Eight Changes philosophy.
Here's an excerpt:
The I-Ching was originally a collection of linear signs, perhaps best seen as code. (not unlike binary code) Below are typical examples arranged in hexa-gram sets.



The broken lines yin lines represented 'no' -the unbroken yang lines 'yes' conveniently serves as code complex enough to be used as oracle 'cards' which portrayed a vision of the Taoist Way -where one is aware and becomes in harmony with the process of change. The key code of yang lines balanced with yin lines were arranged in Tri-grams. These tri-grams were arranged into the Pa Kua or eight correspondences which sought to describe the basis of change developing from one thing to two to three to all things. The Tao.


In this pretty good (brief) intro and this better, slightly longer feng shui lesson, you can see how the Ba Gua work in feng shui - as the nine directions (n, nw, w, sw, s, se, e, ne and the center).

And this brief article talks to how the the Ba Gua come from the simple interaction of Yin and Yang, the primal binary that generates everything else.

Of course, the relationship of the "nine stations" is always being debated and reinterpreted - there are at least three orthodox "maps" showing different stages in different positions: Compare


to


to


(and click on the images to get three different looks at how the Ba Gua can be applied to radically different fields of life. The first page is particularly nice & clear in introducing feng shui.)

So - anyone well versed in feng shui around who'd care to clear things up?
Any acupuncturists care to expand on five elements in health care?
Anyone had any weird run-ins with primal fives (as nouns) or nines (as verbs)?
Anyone got any questions?
 
 
the Fool
22:06 / 08.04.02
I actually learn the Ba gua martial art. Have been doing it for about 2 and a half years now.

The first form we learned for Ba gua (the 24 swiming palms) was structured around the 8 trigrams, refering to 8 animals - lion, unicorn, snake, bear, dragon, pheonix, rooster and monkey. Each animal has three sections, each accending from the previous, I think it goes, lake, mountain, heaven (or something like that). The form is performed in a circle facing the centre (the centre being your "opponent"). It also has a great emphasis on twisting the body (especially the spine) and apparently is based on the motion of the whip.

Later forms are performed on a yinyang symbol. But have only done three forms so can't add much more. We used to do a lot more standing meditation, but now the emphasis has shifted to chinese wrestling. Its a very interesting style to learn, half way between the spiritual and the martial.

I'm sure Patricky has much more to say on the topic.
 
 
grant
13:35 / 09.04.02
Just got a message from the mixmage, who I'm suggesting gets membershipped:

>>>Although I can't elaborate much on your [thorough] intro to the Oriental school, I'd like to share my observations with you [again!]

don't understand "primal fives (as nouns) or nines (as verbs)"... elucidate please.

I don't doubt that you are aware of Discordianism and their reverence for 5 and its [[opposite of "sum" or "product"?]] 23...
and that the human hand [yes... hands again!] has five digits... that our clock is based on the interaction of 12 and 5 and, for some reason, that the week has been divided into 5 days [9 to 5] plus the weekend (despite the fact that IHVH only rested for one day!)... 9+5=14, 1+4=5?

agreed, the western tradition only appears to have four elements, but these are represented by the five-pointed pentagram, with "Spirit" standing in for Mila Jovovitch... but, then again, for a system that calls itself feng shui [wind water]... where is the element air? hmm? maybe it has something to do with the connection between breathing and chi cultivation...
incidentally, note that the centre of the bagua [ninth station] is represented as the "yinyang". now, I was always taught that the real name for the "yinyang" is the "Tai Chi", meaning "infinite/ultimate" and that the martial art known as Tai Chi is actually Tai Chi Chuan, or Tai Chi Fist - the Infinite/ultimate fist... perhaps this is why the eight-changes-palm [bagua-chang] is performed on a tai chi?

being of the "Norse Conceit", I try [perhaps foolishly] to assimilate all spiritual/scientific theories into my pre-existing belief system... in other words - "yeah, we thought of that too!". In the Northern paradigm, the elements of metal and wood were incorporated as the entities known as Dwarves and Elves respectively [although literally as "Svartalfar" and "Lichtalfar" - "dark" and "light" Elves]... in order to obtain the Brising knecklace [a most beautiful treasure], Freya is persuaded to sleep with four dwarven brothers - representing the four elements? Freya being the fifth?

[spurious side note... my interpretation of this story: the kneclace itself could represent the fifth element, although I once had a vision of the knecklace as a physical model of the elemental universe. The reason it was so beautiful, is that it elegantly summed up both Eastern and Western theories]

Furthermore, nine [9] is a sacred number to we northern-types... 3 is the original magic number; beginning with the undivided unity of 1, duality springs into being (2) and thus creates the primal triangle... [don't get me started on threes!]... we have three sets of deities, Aesir [human/magick gods], Vanir [nature gods] and Nornir [the fates, also numbering three].
Nine is three mutiplied by itself, three threes... the number of nights Odin hung on that wind-swept tree, or of Hermod's ride to ransom Baldur... the number of worlds of Yggdrasil...

back to time and the curious interaction of 12 [1+2=3] and 5... in the Chinese calendar, we travel sequentially through the influence of 12 sacred animals, a 12-year cycle... except that each cycle brings the influence of a new element to bear... resulting in a cycle of 60 years. 12x5... 1+2+5=8 and we get back to trigrams and my last unsolicited e-mail!

When consulting the I Ching, one uses a pair of trigrams to generate the hexagram that describes the current state of play... in order to generate the trigrams, one can flip three coins for each line - a total of nine [9] tosses per trigram [no "chaos pun" intended] - heads=yang=3, tails=yin=2 [sneaky 5 there]... thus giving a possible total of 6,7,8 or 9 for each line.
Starting with the bottom line and working up [like life], record your totals for each line of the hexagram then draw your lines - odd being yang [unbroken] and even being yin [broken] - consult the I Ching to divine the message of the hexagram.

[spurious side note #2... note the difference between east/west... west seems to peg even as masculine [yang] and odd as feminine [yin] - the oriental rationale being that "odd" numbers have a "bit sticking out" (male)]

ch-ch-ch-ch-changes... now look at the numbers...
any lines with totals of six or nine [9] are known as "Changing Lines" - the key to the "book of changes" - the hexagram description will most likely be followed by comments on what your changing lines represent in this hexagram. Now redraw the hexagram, converting any changing lines to their opposites and consult the entry for the new hexagram to further clarify the change, but NOT the changing lines... that's just for the first hexagram.

as far as the five-elements in health care goes, I'm no accupuncturist, but I do study Tai Chi and Chi Gong. One of the forms I was taught is called "The Five-Element Form", consisting of a series of warm-ups and warm-downs, sandwiching the form proper: A series of five postures, each repeated five times, cultivating the five energies within the body, strengthening the respective organs and transforming the practitioner into a working model of the universe. Nice!


*** the clearest translation/interpretation of the I Ching that I have found is by Brian Browne Walker [isbn 0-7499-1265-0]...

those interested in an overview of the internal martial arts [bagua/tai chi etc.] would do well to find a copy of "The Power of Internal Martial Arts" B.K. Frantzis [isbn 1-55643-253-4]...

and for an action-packed example of PaKuaZhang, check the "good" Jet Li in "The One" - the "bad" Jet uses Hsing-I [bagua emphasising circles and turning, Hsing-I (xing-yi) being based on straight lines and direct assault].
<<<
 
 
grant
13:41 / 09.04.02
What I meant by "five nouns" and "nine verbs" is that the elements are noun-like (substances out of which things are made) and the stations are verb-like (changes through which things pass).

(Also for people not used to Chinese please note that spellings change!
Ba Gua = pakua, or bagua or any combination of that.
Tai Chi = taiji, taiqi, taichi.
Just sound it out, and it all should be clear.)
 
 
cusm
16:03 / 09.04.02
In each case of 5 and 9, these numbers are used as the unifying element in a system of 4 and 8. The 5th element of spirit is not a separate element, but an integration of the 4. The 9th position is in the center, not a direction of its own but the unifying place of all 8 directions. I thinkl the Taichi placed in the center of the PaKua represents this well, as the Tao as trancendental unification of all things is represented in the combination of the primal opposites of yin and yang as one system, unified as in the unknowable Tao (1). So by this, 5 and 9 are used in the same was as 1. Its more 4 and 1 and 8 and 1 than a system of 5 or 9. However, the use of 9 in the I-Ching calculations is interesting. 9 tosses to make a shape based on a system of 8. Sort of the same idea from the reverse direction?
 
 
grant
18:55 / 09.04.02
Well, with the 8 to 9 relationship, you're right on, but the five elements aren't four-plus-one. They're each their own thing.
 
 
cusm
20:03 / 09.04.02
The 5 Chinese elements, you mean? By 4 and 1 I was refering to the 4 western elements, plus spirit as the unification and center. The 5 Eastern elements are distinct. I suppose those would unify to a 6th, but I haven't really seen that done anywhere.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:40 / 09.04.02
"air" is absent from the 5 element system as it translates to "chi" or "qi" whis is assumed to be present everywhere rocks have qi... it's the physical or intellectual manafestation of the universal TAO

The universe exhists in Qi... So all the other elements are making their changes & transformations with-in Qi or the Tao...

Just skimmed this thred (I'll certainly return to it) has anyone mentioned the elements additive & subtractive cycles? How they build from each other vs. how they cancel each other out?
 
 
Mr Tricks
00:46 / 10.04.02


okay... I just whipped this gif up to illustrait how the elements both serve each other & neutralise each other... One of the most elegant aspects of the 5 element system.

Starting from the top, Fire & moving clockwise along the outer rim of the pentagon we see how each element give birth,life,form to the next...

Fire burns out & turns to ash which feeds earth, Earth yelds Metal, once refined by man (here's the human factor), Metal give form to water as in a bowl (again manmade), water feed wood, wood dries up to feed fire...

Now if we follow the lines that make up the Pentacle/star inside we can see the suntractive aspect of each element...

Starting again with Fire...

Fire melts metal, causing the loss of form. Metal (in it's Yang aspect) chops wood. Wooden roots penatrate earth & consume it's form. Earth in turn can absorb water or hinder it's fluid nature as mud. Water can of course snuff out fire.

The 2 variations of the BaGua are based on this theory. One is Static, an idealised form where each is in perfect balance, yet with no movement presant. The other is dynamic, with each trigram moving into the next & out from the previous....

can anyone sus-out which is which?
 
 
Mr Tricks
00:49 / 10.04.02
also:

Imagine the 5 element pentaform imposed upon the 8 trigram Bagua... interesting where each element lands... no?
 
 
grant
18:28 / 10.04.02
You're going to have to unpack that one for us, I think.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:35 / 11.04.02
OKAY.. I'm still hunting for images that will clearly illustrate the 2 variations of the Bagua...

In the mean time I wanted to point out an interesting dynamic based on imposing the 5 element pentaform on the 8 triagrams of feng shui's bagua...

Starting with fire:
It lands upon the trigram Li "middle daughter" represented by a pheasant shooting skywards, Phoenix?. The location of FAME, it's direction on the compass south (Remember, in China South is at the top of the compass & Map), it's season is summer.
The nature of Li is attachment. It is like the fire which can only consume in the presence of a substance, wood
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:29 / 11.04.02
earth:
Kun Direction is South-west, Season is Summer-Autumn transition, with-in the bagua family Kun is Mother (mother earth?) and is represented by the docil cow.
Her nature is submission, like the earth supporting the firmment, yeilding crops durring the passing of summer into autumn.

Interesting how that point in the star falls between Marriage & children.

metal:
Both "Dui" & "Qian" are represented in metal.Dui is the youngest daughter, a delightful sheep, autumn, west. Her nature is that of delight, ripened fruit & harvest. It's representaion as marshes imply the Yin apsect of a metal bowl, holding water...not unlike a ripe fruit. On the Baugua we can see the triagram for children.
Qian can be said to represent the Yang aspect of metal... a cutting blade. As represented by Heaven we could consider the reaper's blade seperating the world of man from that of Heaven. His nature is Vigour, and the changing of the season from Fall towards the comming winter. His direction is North-west, the Father of the Bagua trigram he is the mighty horse... perhaps a pale horse? His trigram lands in the space of helpful people... who could be more helpful than one's father? ideally...
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:40 / 11.04.02
water:
Like metal is represented in 2 trigrams "Kan & Gen".

"Kan" is located in the North, winter and interestingly resides over career. It's nature is the sinking quality of animals entering hibernation for winter. The Middle Son is also a Pig, at the bottom of the baugua splashing away.

"Gen" is located on the North-east and resides in the place of knowledge. Winter's transition into spring happens here, it's nature is stopping or the stillness of a mountain. The youngest son is also a loyal dog, waiting for a comand.

Interesting that the Yang aspect of water would be stillness in relation to it's Yin sinking quality.
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:19 / 11.04.02
wood:
The 2 trigrams represented in Wood are "Xun & Zhen".

Zhen is the trigram for family, spring time in the east he is the eldest son. As the Dragon his nature it that of movement, perpetually stirring like spring time thunderstorms.

Xun is the trigram for wealth. The spring-summer transition resides here in the south-east. As the eldest daughter, she is also a chicken who's nature is reflected in "going into" like the wind carrying a kite into the sky she depicts the thriving life of this time.

more on the numerology later...
 
 
mixmage
23:34 / 17.04.02
More fives for you:
Five senses, Battle Of The Planets [Fri, Sat, Sun @ 5:30am on BRAVO UK], the village people, the invisibles...
and, in will it work wright?'s excellent posting, according to the Chinese, the dragon originated in their middle kingdom and has always had five toes.

As I see it, the major reason behind the adoption of four is the four-corners of the earth; the fixed signs of the zodiac, the cardinal points of the compass and the solstices and equinoxes. The "wheel of the year" places a yin [lunar] festival between each of the yang [solar] corners, creating a cycle of eight [8 again] festivals charting the movement of the heavens and the rise and fall of fecundity/nature.

To the Chinese [Hong Kong, at least] 4 is an "unlucky" number (like 13, 1+3=4?!)... something about it being the number of death. In elevators, the number on the 4th floor button is often coloured red to counteract the negativity.

to cusm: Bang on, mate! "5" is the "10" of base 4... the point at which number collapses back to a lower/single figure, eg 10=1, 15=6 [in base 10 numerology]

to grant: The four suits of the tarot are given to the elements... Swords=Air, Wands=Fire, Cups=Water, Disks=Earth... checking "The Book of Thoth", A.C. refers to the court cards representing the elements in various combinations... The Knights [Kings] being the "firey" part of the element, Queens being the "watery" part, Princes [Knights] the "airy" and Princesses [Pages] "earthy". Thus, the Knights correspond: "in the Element of Fire...to the Lightning flash; in the Element of Water, to Rain and Springs; in that of Air, to wind; in that of Earth,to Mountains."
This seems to suggest a level of mixing on a deeper level than a simple suspension/solution: The Princess/page of cups represents the "earthy part of water", elucidated as "the faculty of crystallisation" rather than "mud".
Then again, it could also be "salty water" in both definitions!... and Crowley was certainly influenced by the I Ching.

1 is the Tao, the source of all things... from this springs duality [2], the interaction between these opposites creating the "10,000 things", or "all that is". Now we have the primal triangle, and the number three... [mind the gap!] triad plus duality gives five... the elemental energies whose interaction creates Creation. The fibonacci series goes [1] 1,2,3,5... 8,13 etc.

according to Pirsig [Zen & the art...], number is the last quality we can remove from a group.

primary shapes = square/triangle/circle - body/mind/spirit... interaction of each with itself creates the 3 primary solids sphere/tetrahedron/cube... cross-fertilization sires the cylinder[1+4], cone [1+3] and pyramid [3+4] - these are NOT prime forms. The true Prime forms are known as the Platonic Solids - of which there are five!
Mathematic esoteric
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:01 / 25.04.02
nicely put...

There's some stuff on the I-ching & the number 15 I've been meaning to collect...
 
 
iamus
20:46 / 22.04.05
Anyone had any weird run-ins with primal fives (as nouns) or nines (as verbs)?


Sort of. I've been given this by an old chinese lady in a dream once. The BaGua printed on a white card with a large number five in the ninth station in the place of the Yin-Yang. I don't remember which order the trigrams were arranged though.

At the time I had even less of an understanding (or even awareness) than I do now of the significance or function of the BaGua, fives and nines. There was no particular day to day trigger for their apperance, but it was made clear that it had something to do with uneducated potterings with eastern dragon energies that I had done a while back.

It was also stated that the number five was of particular personal importance to me.

Sorry I can't offer more practical analysis, but I currently still feel a bit too unschooled to talk with any confidence on it and it seems there are people here who know a greater deal than I on this. Does this set off any bells for anyone? Any more resources you can point me in the direction of?
 
 
---
02:32 / 23.04.05
I can't add much to this either, but I'm interested in it a lot more than I am most other things, and have been for a while now. If I ever find a Bagua Kung-Fu class I'll be there like lightning too. I love the way the creative and control cycle's work in harmony with eachother and the whole energetic concept of the Eastern elements is something I find amazing and often easier to work with.

I posted this link and diagram in my blog a while back, I may aswell add them here :

Image hosted by Photobucket.com

http://www.spiritual.com.au/articles/healing/fiveenergies_llieske.htm
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:32 / 23.04.05
yu yans diagram of the fire phases

the meridian clock

yijing

if anybody can find more information on yu yans diagram id appreciate it as it is seen as a key by some to a majority of forms of internal/external alchemy.
 
 
Morpheus
19:54 / 23.04.05
Most people in the Yangs Tai Chi school do not talk much about the five elements system. I've studyed in this school for 20 plus years and the only use I have for it is a meditation point for the fact that I do 5 sets a day. Three in the morning and 2 at evening. It is useful, but we deal with more of the physical aspects and less of the spiritual.
 
 
grant
03:49 / 24.04.05
To the Chinese [Hong Kong, at least] 4 is an "unlucky" number (like 13, 1+3=4?!)... something about it being the number of death.

It's because the word for "four," si (sounds like "suh!"), sounds like the word for "death," si (sounds like "see-uh?").

The number five in the middle of a bagua is almost definitely for the elements, although it's also related to feng shui numerology, as part of the "bagua map," a chart like so:
.

This is also called the luoshu, the magic square of three, which is pretty important in Chinese numerology (this link is great for this thread -- check it out).

Notice that every row of the luoshu adds up to 15, including the diagonals.
 
 
grant
03:51 / 24.04.05
By the way, notice (at the numerology link) that the luoshu numbers each correspond to a star in the Big Dipper -- which is at the center of Yan's diagram.
 
  
Add Your Reply