Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Conversation >

Magick Fucks All

Page: (1)2

01:40 / 07.04.02

::shrugs:: sorry, there seems to be a fuck-theme with conversation titles ::shrugs::

Warewulf said: "I honestly don't how what the non-magicians of the Barbelith think about the rest of us. Maybe they feel that we're all spooky bastards, working away in the background or maye they think we're all delusional and kidding ourselves."

This got me thinking... what do you magickless bastards think of us?

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

01:43 / 07.04.02

And be honest. If you think we're delusional bastards, please tell us.

01:51 / 07.04.02

Delusional for sure. :P

I guess I've just never experienced anything magical. Ever. (that sounds sad, I've had plenty of really amazing experiences) I wouldn't mind if I did but I'd probably put it down as an unexplained occurence rather than magik.

You are right about the the fuck-theme. Sex in general seems to be on the minds of many 'lithers recently judging from some of the posts recently. I guess Spring is in the air

01:52 / 07.04.02

at one point in my life i thought that all of you were delusional bastards. i'm no longer sure what i think. curiosity, piled along with some new thoughts and observations concerning existence, have had me lurking around the magick board for the last few weeks (boo). i see that things i've been interested in for some time now, like lucid dreaming and meditation, are intrinsicly linked to what you guys are doing in your own lives. i'm interested in finding out more about the many things that go on in "magick," but will probably search on my own rather than starting yet another magick faq...

so either i'm beginning to take you seriously as a sign of respect for the unseen forces of the world, or i'm slowly becoming a delusional bastard too.

01:58 / 07.04.02

I think you are most likely delusional. However, I also think that some of it may be worthwhile in the form of a philosophical, psychoanalytical, or placebo effect. In addition, I would admit that there is a very slight chance (<1%) that you might turn out to be right about some things, and I'll have to eat my words.

03:01 / 07.04.02

Welcome to the BD club Utopia.

And Sleeperservice, you will be assimilated resistance is futile!

03:11 / 07.04.02

yay, i've been looking for an extracurricular ever since i quit 4H!!

04:47 / 07.04.02

I have thought about this myself, being a non-believer, and a lot of the time, yes, I think you are just stroking yourselves. Both figuratively and literally

Many of the "results" of magick that I hear about seem to me to easily be explained by coincidence. That said, I have also seen, or heard of, results of magick that I can't explain by coincidence.
My boyfriend is very much an avid believer in magick, and I do support that, and often wish I could get over my skepticism enough to believe in it as well. For all I know, I am wrong, and for all he knows, he could be wrong. The way I look at it is, if you are getting what you want, whether it's from magick or not, what does it matter? If he believes in magick, if you believe in magick, then maybe that's enough to make it true for you.

10:30 / 07.04.02

I'm pretty fascinated by magic and suchlike, so it's odd the way I've got out of the habit of reading/posting in the forum almost entirely.

I guess it's just because, at the moment, I'm not doing any magic, and don't really feel the need to.

But rest assured, I don't think you magic folk are delusional and wish I could be arsed to get some training/practice on the go in order to get with it as it were..

11:04 / 07.04.02

In two minds about that ...

The subject has always fascinated me, but I haven't had the inclination to turn it into practise.During one period I did some Tarot-card readings, and that did have ... wondering. And then a year and a half ago I stayed a few months with a friend who is a shaman. To what extent I didn't fully realise until I came to live with him. He had been diagnozed schizofrenic a few years earlier - but he had come through that and was now living happily without any medication. He felt that the "disease" had relly been a matter of conflicting paradigms, and coming to terms with his beliefs had put his soul at ease (my words). Even though this new magickal life meant dedicating all his time to learning and healing - and that evil spirits would assault and try to corrupt this work/life.

Now, I cannot detract from the actual change that happened to my friend - he was mentally ill, desperate and depressed - he now lives as close to normal as any of my weird friends do. But when he describes something that doctors would probably call a temporary psychosis as an attack by spirits, I also have doubts: is this really a self-reinforcing pattern that will only worsen things?

I read the Magick board, but this ambivalent feeling lingers ... are you delusional? and is it bad for you? or just plain nonsense? (or are you right, even?)

Secondly, I am a religious person - not just in a montheistic, dogmatic sense - I do believe in things beyond the physical realm (or in things within that has not been described/accepted). But I have not been convinced been anything that other have called magick. It wasn't there for me.

BUT (!) (and I'll shut up very shortly) I have nevertheless just three days ago started out on a path that could be described as a magical path. I will try to keep an open mind and not be calling anybody names until I am absolutely certain they deserve it

12:54 / 07.04.02

I'm fascinated in this topic at the moment - so much so that in fact I started this thread in The Magick yesterday to get some responses. The thing that really interests me about the Magick is that there is an element of imaginative work that goes above and beyond reportage and debate - and that's fascinating for me. It's something that many of (what I perhaps unfairly consider) the core fora (Head Shop / Switchboard / Magick particularly - but also Creation and Gathering) have managed to do at various points in the past, and hopefully will do again - move from debate about something to the generation of something (even if what is generated is an off-board activity that I don't understand).

I mean we've had some pretty hardcore philosophy discussed in the Head Shop in the past - discussions in the Switchboard and Gathering have resulted in participation in protest marches, letter-writing campaigns and the like etc. etc. All good stuff.

The one thing that slightly worries me is that The Magick is becoming more of a ghetto on the board - and that it would be great if it was informing some of the other debates around the board slightly more. And by this I don't mean necessarily asking people to invest heavily in the mechanics of it, but getting some of the sensibility in other forums. I mean - how wonderful would it be to have a chaos magicians take on what you'd do with nanotechnology? How many paradigms could we smack against each other? And how long would it take before something really amazing was created in the process?

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

17:48 / 07.04.02

how wonderful would it be to have a chaos magicians take on what you'd do with nanotechnology?

Well, as one of the people in the Magick section who was pretty skeptical about it all until about a year or so ago, I don't kn ow if my perspective would be typical, but...

With nanotechnology, life as we know it would completely break down and be replaced with something new. If you didn't have to BUY THINGS, think of how much of your life would be free for other pursuits? You work to have a car, but with nanotech at its most basic, you could program the nanites to make your car...or your clothes, or your computer, or other nanites. Someone jump on me if I am wrong, but all you would need is one nanite to build more and you would have an endless supply.

What does that mean?

The only commodity left would be creative thought. You wouldn't need people to Build things, just to think them up. Even then they wouldn't be able to own their ideas anymore, as evidenced by the fact that I was able to download the new Rush single for free less than 20 minutes after it was released to radio stations.

Then, we'd have to make a choice as a race....do we better ourselves and become beings who thrive on art and helping each other, or greedy bastards who use up everything to have our nanites build us so much crap we would never be able to use it all.

Personally? I have no faith in humanity, and think we'll trash the place. But that's just me.

17:54 / 07.04.02

what an interesting theory, rose! but i agree, humanity is not the bank that i want to store my faith in...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:10 / 07.04.02

I want nanites. I sooo want lots of nanites. I would have so much fun. Maybe I'll try and create a small army of really really tiny servitors that can act like nanites. Bwahahahaha.

Delusional? I pride myself on it. Perspective is all well and good, but it takes a certain amount of demented megalomania (even if it's just temporary) to try and change the world with your mind.

I think the problem I have with the Magick forum is that there's not enough traffic between it and the rest of the board. People seem to feel shy about posting there if they aren't familiar with the concepts and the jargon. I'm hoping that'll change when we get the newbie FAQ sorted.

19:28 / 07.04.02

as someone who has only wanked for magic i am still slightly sceptical, but also delusional. but that's more to do with my personality. one of my spells worked great but of late i'm not sure it is working. but then again i think i might be working against my will somewhat. so to conclude, i'm in two minds about magic. i do think it works, but it's still only in the mind.
but then again so is everything, said the budhist.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:57 / 08.04.02

I used to practise magick, but at the time I don't think I was stable enough and things started getting a bit too weird for my liking. I still read up on the stuff, though- that's why I lurk in the Magick but rarely post.

11:15 / 08.04.02

I dont really believe in anything. Im about the least spiritual person you are ever gonna meet.

however, I also dont tend to scoff at other peoples beliefs. I know better than anyone that nothing is definite, and no matter how sure you are about something, anything - you can be utterly wrong

11:35 / 08.04.02

I'm interested in it as a phenomenon, but I reckon that if you actually believe it works you're fooling yourself.

I don't generally argue the fact because it usually ends up being an unresolvable clash of basic beliefs and worldviews.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

14:28 / 08.04.02

"Perspective is all well and good, but it takes a certain amount of demented megalomania (even if it's just temporary) to try and change the world with your mind."

I like this.

pointless and uncalled for

14:43 / 08.04.02

In general I don't think about you.

You don't form much of an part of my life apart from being a part of a society that I live in. I rarely form opinions on interest groups unless they interact/interfere with my life.

I don't believe in magic any more than I believe in a god or anything else.

You don't come across as spooky bastards and niether have any practicioners that I have met in the past.

In terms of magic there are a couple of things that I take issue with. The proliferation of annoying wannabes caused by Buffy (dear god I hate that show) and books. Normally I wouldn't support book burning and in fact have taken an interest in books on magic before to see how IRL practice relates to my love of D&D. However, there are exceptions. Firstly are the books by people who call themselves such pretensious names as Raven Silverthorn. Secondly, and possibly the largest travesty in the history of the printed word would be the sick and disturbing publication that is the paperback edition of the Necronomicon. I mean seriously, what the fuck is up with that. There's no reasonable excuse and heads should fucking well roll.

17:42 / 08.04.02

off topic: which Necronomicon was that? What did you hate so much about it? I think all the published one's you can find are jolly good fun.. (with the possible exception of the L.Spague de Camp one that was just a bunch of fake sumerian characters repeated again and again - someone should get twatted for making people pay money for that one).

pointless and uncalled for

17:48 / 08.04.02

I think that you'll find that this is the monstrosity of which I speak.

20:15 / 08.04.02

well, the review doesn't say much about it except "THIS IS A FAKE"... which everyone, magickist or no, probably knew anyway... so what's wrong with it?

23:21 / 08.04.02

I think M/magic(k) is by and away the biggest bollocks that has ever graced the face of any human. I mean, what kind of fruit loop do ya' gotta' be to think that anything you do could actually impact the world, let alone in some kind of spooky non-linear sense. And all that "metaphor" and obsfucation behind formulas and rites. Like dancing 'round a May pole has anything to do with anything other then mere societal appeasement and social custom/indoctrination?!?

Gadzooks. Like any of those fictional mythical personas would have anything to do with a bunch of groveling self-serving wankers who think that they are some kinda' pseudo scientists artsy-fartsies performing "changes of consciousness with conformity of will" like it was some kind of macaroni and construction paper busy-work for you to do in your Sunday school class. "i'm sorry Mrs. X, but I ate the Red Sea."

Anyhoo, you "magicians" and "sorcerers" and "shamans" etc. etc. are only trying to pull the wool over everyone else's eyes, but succeed in only covering your own. Deception at its finest point right into your third eye! Give me science or give me death! If you can't show me the connection between your orgasm, your little drawings, your desire, and a real outcome, then I say to you "coincidence" is all you got, and you are indeed powerless in a world that doesn't give two-shits about your pathetic desires. Like the universe even has a soul. Take all that hippie new age crap you've got constipated deep in your bowels and buy yourself a laxative! Flush your farce and forget tales of power. Wish fulfillment comes through the hard work of callused hands, and not one spell will ever unclog my toilet!

m3

01:16 / 09.04.02

Sigh. For those who don't know, modthree is a regular poster in the magic forum. Blanket statements and childish name-calling wrapped up in a sardonic irony should be tip off enough.

I personally don't care whether people think Magic is bollocks or not, because I still have moments when I'm not convinced either. Long live scepticism I say. Everyone should come to his/her own conclusions based on his/her experiences. Of course, if you don't try it you'll never know.

04:38 / 09.04.02

Mod3... thanks for the laugh.

The Return Of Rothkoid

12:02 / 09.04.02

MC:
I want nanites. I sooo want lots of nanites. I would have so much fun. Maybe I'll try and create a small army of really really tiny servitors that can act like nanites. Bwahahahaha.

You know, whenever I read "nanites", I thought "manatees". Which would be a kinda funny-lookin' implant. But cool, nonetheless.

I think magick is the sort of thing that's kinda fragile, at least in terms of the uninitiated or relatively unschooled. Like me. It's the sort of thing that I really want to believe in, but I have a rather active scepticism gland - probably a good thing on the whole. But I find that a lot of magickal texts (actually - that should probably read "new-age wank posing as esoterica", I guess.) are pretty destructive to a tenuous belief in that what's happening/should be happening is real and effective. And from that doubt comes the aforementioned "magickians are wankers/fatbeards/whatever" stereotype, I think.

Example: have always had a "thing" about Tarot cards. Don't know what it is, whether it relates purely to design-lust or the tactile nature or whatever. And I'd love to do more with them - but when I cast a glance around bookshops, there's a lot of stuff that seems poorly-written, new-age-lite crap. Or seems to be really dumbed-down... it's just frustrating for snobbish me, maybe. Of course, the signal/noise ratio applies at any level of interest - you'd have to get past Ezra Pound's "Nazi supermen are our superiors!" stages to appreciate his cantos, maybe - but I think it's a lot higher in the magickal arena because the main idea (that I've gleaned from lurking a little over the past year-and-a-bit) is that the rule of thumb is that you have to wing it. And some people take advantage of that - maybe they're the ones that're creating bad press?

But hey. I could just be bitter because I've not experienced anything concrete yet. And probably won't do so until I actually get off my arse and investigate with a bit more rigor than I have to date.

The Natural Way

16:16 / 09.04.02

I think the word "delusional" (re: magic) is a stupid blanket term and I'm not sure it means anything.

"Coincidence"....let's not even get started.....

Skepticism is bollocks (well..maybe not in its traditional sense) - agnosticism all the way!

Yay, Magic.

17:41 / 09.04.02

It's the sort of thing that I really want to believe in, but I have a rather active scepticism gland - probably a good thing on the whole. – Rothkoid

That's interesting – I have one of those too. I agree that such glands are useful, especially if one has an interest in Magick.

A big problem with Magick is that there's a lot of crap to wade through in order to find what you really need to know, and it's not always easy to find someone who will help you out or answer your questions without trying to get over on you. Magick and the Occult attract an element of unstable and insecure people, and that element has unfortunately become a stereotype that anyone who practicises Magick has to confront at some point. (Not to mention having to actually confront the unstable and insecure people who consider themselves "Illuminated Magi" or "White Witches who work only for GOOD" or some such bollocks.)

Thankfully – with the rare exception – the folks over in the Magick Forum here respect each other's differences.

Wyrd: Thanks

23:24 / 09.04.02

I mean, if you are a skeptic and are really sincere about it, then do you not also have to be skeptical of your skepticism?!?

{0, 1, 2}

Oh, and modthree is an irregular poster to the magick forum. Personally, I think that mod3 is nothing more than a sham, man! That fucker wouldn't know magick if it bit Z on the nose. I mean, who the hell does that flippin' modthree think Z is calling all the people names all the time and disrespecting all the nice people here. It's so obvious that m3 is completely oblivious to the world around Z and the needs of those in it! Why, I think I'm gonna' hunt down ole {0, 1, 2} and beat that fucker like a dog in the street! Like A dog gone dead dog. Yep. Watch it modthree, I'm coming for you!

(1 - 2) + (2 - 3) + (3 - 1) = 0

01:16 / 10.04.02

I mean, if you are a skeptic and are really sincere about it, then do you not also have to be skeptical of your skepticism?!?

I suspect that you're more interested in throwing out discordian one-liners than in actually hearing the answer to that question. However, I'll respond anyway.

I would say that to be skeptical of an idea is to demand proof that it is true before accepting it. For example, I am skeptical of Christianity because I see no proof that a deity exists. I am not skeptical of skepticism because I think that my existence has improved upon incorporating it into my epistemology, and I have noticed that others have experienced similar results.

The natural response to this is, "Well, I have seen positive results since incorporating chaos magic into my critera for what is and isn't true.". I'm sure you have, or else you wouldn't be doing it. However, I do have to work with the criteria that appear to yield the best benefit for myself.

By the way, why do you keep typing out a set with only 0, 1, and 2 in it?

12:24 / 10.04.02

Good questions/comments.

What would you consider good proof that a diety exists? What kind of deity have you looked for and not found?

I would tend to agree with you that a lot of what we try to do in this area is difficult to prove using objective criteria. The interesting thing is that a lot of people report similar subjective experiences while doing particular actions. This could mean a.1)we're dealing with some deep wired part of human psychology, a.2)we're dealing with some abnnormal part of our particular human psychology (we're nuts), b) we're actually having physical effects on reality, c)we're actually having psychological or symbolic effects on reality, or d)none of the above.

In the meantime, it's awfully interesting just to make the effort, regardless of the outcome.

13:07 / 10.04.02

I suspect that you're more interested in throwing out discordian one-liners than in actually hearing the answer to that question. – Thiazi/Mormael

I'm not sure exactly what there is to "suspect" about modthree, since he's admitted to being a troll more than once on this board and has absolutely no purpose except circumlocutionary abuse of people he considers "popular" in certain Forums – Lothar, Mordant C@rnival and myself in Magick, as well as Lurid Archive and [monkeys] over in the Laboratory.

Maybe some of you think that's a "laugh" – those of us who bear the brunt of it don't find it at all amusing. It's harassment, and I'm fucking sick of it. Part of the reason why we switched to a new board was to minimize trollish behavior. So PM him or e-mail him if you want to interact with him – ignore him if you don't, but please don't feed him.

14:24 / 10.04.02

Logos
>>What kind of deity have you looked for and not found?<<

I don't go looking for Them, the Bastards keep on showing up. Though, I could stop feeding Ganesh peanuts… But, I'm very fond of Him.

19:34 / 10.04.02

I'll have to admidt, every now and then I have my moments where I'm sure all of magick and spirituality is nothing more than metaphore for internal psychological process. Then something from that process happens to cause me to question it all all over again. I am left only with the understanding that it is as real as you belive it to be, and somehow that is objectively valid. Or at the very least, that my subjective reality is effectively objective as far as I'm concerned, so I might as well make it interesting to live in, eh?

*shrug*

We may indeed all be crazy, but its fun

Page: (1)2