Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Conversation >

The un-revolution.

01:06 / 07.04.02

Since I've been visiting this site I've become aware that when people post they are very careful with their spelling, grammar and just their general use of language. Myself included. However, before I joined here I've been on many message boards where revolutions in language and the way it's used have occured. L33tness and the like.

For a site that it so liberal in so many ways I find it strange that the use of language is so strictly policed.

01:19 / 07.04.02

I can think of three reasons for this:

1) It's easier to get people to read and respond to your ideas when they don't have to spend thirty minutes translating your post into English.

2) People who are apart of the many diverse subcultures represented on Barbelith don't need to resort to changing the spelling of words to make themselves stand out.

3) The leetspeak language structure is associated in many people's minds with being a complete idiot. I'm sure there must be at least a few clever people who use leetspeak, but I have yet to find one.

01:28 / 07.04.02

wh4+'s WR0n9 w1+h l33+ $P3@K? i'm n0t A c0MPLe+E 1Di0t, Y0u'Re JU5T D1551n9 MY ChO1c3 To Typ3 this w4y becAuse J00 W@n+ +0 feEl 8eTt3R @b0u+ y0Ur$3lF.

Heh.

I watch my spelling, grammar, and punctuation simply because I don't want people to think I'm sort sort of uneducated hick. Sure, I make mistakes on occasion, but everybody does at one point or another.

I figure if you want to be taken seriously here, you should make an attempt to come across as relatively intelligent. Yes, your posts may get replied even if they sound like something a drunken teenager may write, but I'm sure the person replying is thinking, "Jesus, what a moron".

01:40 / 07.04.02

Leet was just an example, I wasn't putting it up for election as the new official site language so appologies if you were mis-directed by it's mention. I am genuinely curious though. Indeed your posts dismissive tone suggests that no debate about the very basics of the way people converse here is required or wanted. I find that funny given the nature of this board. Certain subjects are ok, others not?

I'm not a writer by nature, being more of a visual/musical type, but clearly there are plenty of people on here who are and that's cool and they write very well. Far better than me

I can see how people would be intimidated into not posting by this though. Which seems a shame to me.

I wouldn't use leet here because of the total social stigma obviously attached too it. And that's only partly a joke.

01:52 / 07.04.02

You don't actually think I typed that horrible crap in do you? I used a l33t-5p34k generator.

Dismissive tone? I didn't mean to sound dismissive, what exactly gave you the impression I was dismissing the subject of language? I think it's interesting to see why more people watch their language around here. Like I said in my above post, I watch my language because I don't want to be stereotyped as some sort of "dumb hick from the green hills of tennessee". Hell, I could post the way I speak with "boy howdys" and "y'alls" and all that, but really there isn't a point in differentiating myself with that kind of language.

I'm not a writer, artist or musician. I'm a techy little uber-geek. I usually have a separate window open to dictionary.com because there's always at least one word that I don't know in a post. I figure 95% of the people who post here are better writers than myself.

It is indeed a shame that people are intimidated by the over-abundance of "big school words" around here.

01:54 / 07.04.02

Maybe it would help if you gave us some exaples, (besides l33t) of the sorta changes that other boards are making on language.

03:03 / 07.04.02

The dismissive bit was meant for Thiazi/Mormael Trijhaos. It took me so long to type my reply you posted inbetween in the mean time.

Thiazi/Mormael wrote;
3) The leetspeak language structure is associated in many people's minds with being a complete idiot. I'm sure there must be at least a few clever people who use leetspeak, but I have yet to find one.

There was me thinking this site didn't like stereotypes. I must admit I hate reading leet though. It was just an example of language evolution (even if you don't like it).

03:07 / 07.04.02

Ahhh....my mistake.

Intelligent people don't use l33tspeak? Since when? Sure, most of the people who type that way can usually be stereotyped as lamers, AOLers, etc etc, but I've seen a number of intelligent people use l33tspeak.

What other types of language evolution is there?

03:14 / 07.04.02

For a start how about more abbreviations? And

:P

:/

etc etc. A icon on the end of a line makes the tone of the text more obvious and would save mis-understandings yet people here hardly ever use them. Why would that be? They positively aid communication in a medium where you can't see or hear the other person. Yet I get the impression people think they're childish. I find that childish and downright backwards.

03:28 / 07.04.02

Hmm...icons...I could see that. Is there a nifty little icon that denotes sarcasm? I don't think icons are childish, but there is a time and place for them. A little

is great, but when an entire post has them behind every couple lines, you have to wonder about the sanity of the poster.

Are you saying there's an under-abundance of abbreviations on this board? I'd like to think that there's a proper number of abbreviations.

04:49 / 07.04.02

Yeah, I do sort of think that the entire concept is silly. The advantage of English language standardization is that we can spend more time reading and less time trying to figure out what the hell someone is saying. However, I have no objection to the occasional

05:16 / 07.04.02

I have always believed no matter how stupid you are, if you spell words correctly and have decent grammar, you won't seem nearly as stupid. I have some very intelligent friends who come across as complete dolts when they write anything, simply because their spelling is so horrendous. Spelling is overrated, but it can be very important when it comes to how people perceive your intelligence level.

06:55 / 07.04.02

Hmm.

Since I've been visiting this site I've become aware that when people post they are very careful with their spelling, grammar and just their general use of language. Myself included. However, before I joined here I've been on many message boards where revolutions in language and the way it's used have occured. L33tness and the like.

Sure, I can go for this. The only problem I see is where you take this:

For a site that it so liberal in so many ways I find it strange that the use of language is so strictly policed.

"Police" implies vested authority with the right to inflict various types of violence in order to enforce policy. Here, it implies that moderators can or do interfere with your rights to post based on your use of the English language.

I don't see that happening.

Nor do I think -- for a variety of reasons -- that spelling and grammar are accurate indicators of one's intellect. For that matter, I don't see that often implied.

I think the most that can be said for those who post with attention to the rules of English is this: They figure their audience is ostensibly English-speaking. I haven't seen anyone speak out against experimentation with language, however.

Why then do you suggest that language is policed on Barbelith, and what would you suggest we do use to communicate?

06:58 / 07.04.02

Uh. Yeah.

Well, I'll work on the quoting thing under this new bit.

wembley can change in 28 days

07:15 / 07.04.02

I'm with Miss Lenore on this one. As the internet (and certainly Barbelith) is a primarily textual medium as far as participation goes, I find I'm critical of peoples' use of language like I'd be critical of a haircut if I saw them on the street. Saying "your cool" is the equivalent of having a mullet.

07:53 / 07.04.02

%Sarcasm seems to be noted like this%

Use lots of italics and bold letters to make a point. Not perfect, but you can usually get your verbal stresses in there.

I think grammar and spelling is strict partly because of english classes and partly because I've seen many threads where someone's argument was picked apart because of a spelling or grammar error... usually only very heated arguments, but still...

08:49 / 07.04.02

I'm not going to type my m3ss@ge$ like this because it's just completely irrelevant. I don't write like it, and I don't speak like it, and in a way, that makes it lying, and that's a sin. Anything I post is done the way I talk, though I say 'fuck' more, make more pauses and chainsmoke during normal conversation.
If people want to talk like that, then more power to them. I'm not playing though. If I know how to spell and use grammar, I'm bloody well going to. One thing the internet makes people do that in turn makes me pissy is the people who write stuff like YOUR ALL FAGS!!!! and use a lot of smilies.That sux!

(etc)

all your 3ngl!$h are now belong to us.

10:30 / 07.04.02

There's a couple of posts in this thread that I would be completely happy to agree with had I not just fixed the use of apostrophes in someone's thread in the Conversation...! But personally, I think it's great that everyone here is as literate and intelligent as they are - that they enjoy writing clearly and concisely and that there isn't a tremendous need for moderators to go around fixing people's posts. And as to 'policing' I think it's interesting how we as a community treat each other - you're just more likely to have your opinions listened to if you write clearly and intelligently. I think that's a tremendous leap from most online discussion boards...

10:42 / 07.04.02

Interesting topic, usually on the net I do talk in a casual shorthand way partly because its quicker when using internet chat but its probably more to do with me being terrible at spelling. I don't think I do it on Barbelith though, or at least I try not too. I don't think it was a conscious decision, I must have just noticed that nobody used it.

I kinda like the whole internet lauguage though, it makes more sense to my feeble brain, you know in the future its the way all the kids will write and we'll all talk in clicks and wurrrrs...

14:49 / 07.04.02

I personally dislike leetspeak because it seems to have less to do with a revolution in language and more with demonstrating membership in a clique of people who are able to type leet. Perhaps it started as an efficient means of reducing typing speed on a QWERTY, such as h8 for "hate," but this process, taken to its extremes, only ensures that more people, and especially ESL types such as myself, are utterly baffled. In that sense it's destined to disenfranchise, to establish seperations, even within the exclusively Anglophonic. English is my fifth language and my fourth alphabetic system. Leet does nothing except for establish a new correspondence set between drawn shapes and common English letters, and not even in a particularly interesting fashion, given that the replacement process is grounded in shape similarity to the original letter, which is not exactly an impressive change in language, and too boot ensures that people who don't immediately remember that the numeral 3 equals "three" rather than "drai" "san" or "teen" get lost that much faster.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

15:08 / 07.04.02

I think a lot of it is because the board has always been a place where people write clearly...because they want to be understood and have a dialogue. And it's hard to discuss ideas if you are fumbling about grammar and spelling.

On Usenet people will argue and fight and such, and it eventually breaks down to some people dsmissing people because they misspell words. I will admit I can't type well because I type FAST, and spell for shite. Then afterwards I always think I look like an idiot because I don't bother to go over what I have written.

wembley can change in 28 days

17:07 / 07.04.02

Perhaps for those of us in a cold sweat over dangling modifiers, one of the next features on Barbelith should be a grammar and spell check. Split an infinitive, and three random members ignore you for a week.

11:36 / 08.04.02

solitaire rose has rather beaten me to it, but i'd like to add that it's easy to be misunderstood on any messageboard, so the clearer the writing, the better. i've really had to pull my socks up since i joined barbelith, to express myself more clearly, and i think that's a good thing. you don't need to use 'long words' to make a point - i've been put off in the past due to my relative lack of education - although i should add that whenever i've made a joke it has been totally ripped apart because people didn't realise it was a joke (text on screen is very cold). the use of smilies/icons in these situations are fairly pointless, i think, because it can look as if you are making an offensive remark and trying to get away with it by adding a smiley face. so i tend not to anymore. especially, i have to say, in the new barbelith, where i barely recognise any of the names and so the possibility of anyone knowing and understanding any joke i might make is even lower than usual.

i do post on other messageboards, and i do tend to inwardly groan when i see 'txtmssg' type writing. it just seems so dumbed down, both in language and in subject matter.

11:48 / 08.04.02

I think people are very slow to call you on bad spelling. I know Ive personally agonized over something that I spelled quite stupidly but, very kindly, no one mentioned. it seems to be a rather personal thing, as if most of us are doing the "policing" solely for ourselves - as mean as we are to one another sometimes, Ive seen very little of that sort of criticism

The Return Of Rothkoid

12:15 / 09.04.02

I think that the slowness of correction that you mention, bk, is borne out of a couple of posters being flamed/embarrassed by correcting other suits who they later found out were dyslexic. Whereas that'd not be much of a consideration elsewhere online - other message-boards, say - I think that Barbelith is probably a bit more sensitive to this.

I'm glad monkey brought up the ESL argument against leet-speak. It means that I don't have to trot out my "that sounds shitbox" line - but also, I think that such text is probably not going to gather a lot of consideration if it's used in serious conversations. Think about it; someone posts a well-planned piece about a current event and gets "WOW D00D! URA 133t P0ST3R! H4W H4W!" in reply; it seems a bit below the usual level of barbelith's discussion, doesn't it?

As for smilies? I don't think they necessarily add to descriptiveness. I get more sense of what someone's saying by the words, not by an annoying little graphic at the end. But then, they've always struck me as a bit twee, so I'm biased.

I think there's no policing going on, either - I just think that people here value clarity in posting, because this place is about idea exchange/demolition. People post mistakes, yes, but I think there's more consideration to what is being said than there is to the grammatical correctness around here - at least more than seems suggested by your post, sleeperservice. Personally, I think it reflects badly on me if there's errors in my post, largely because I've been a subeditor before. That's why I try to post with clarity, I guess...

wembley can change in 28 days

13:01 / 09.04.02

I never knew about the dyslexia fiasco, and I think a lot of other people don't as well. I've got a mix of one part can't-be-arsed to two parts that-won't-win-you-friends when it comes to my correcting others' spelling and grammar. I don't mind if anyone corrects mine (and frankly, I'd be pleased, as my last essay got Sassafrassed on grammar and style), but some people really don't like it.

Perhaps, Rothko, people like yourself are much more comfortable around the board, because your spelling and grammar are truly 133t. But if there's one website I would get out the Strunk and White for, it would be Barbelith.

The Return Of Rothkoid

13:10 / 09.04.02

I don't think that it's 'cause of any grammatical superiority that I'm comfortable here. Because, quite obviously, there's better posters around. It's more to do with the fact that people feel the need to make an effort - something that 133tspeak doesn't seem to infer. People here like to talk, and generally, they take care in their posts to be lucid; this comes across as easy reading (though the subject matter's often hard or confounding) and that makes me feel comfortable. But hey, I like words, and am a geek for them, so that may colour my response.

And I should've clarified, also: some of the hesitancy to correct could be coming from the Dyslexia angle. I certainly know that it's stopped me a couple of times. Though that's tied to laziness, too.

16:11 / 09.04.02

I prefer to write clearly on Barbelith for a couple of reasons: one, I'm a writer/editor by trade, so it's habitual; and two, clear postings make it easier for other people to understand my points and contribute their own responses. In addition to dyslexia, a number of posters on Barbelith don't have English as their native language. The more that the language on the board deviates from standard English, the more difficult it becomes for those members to participate, or so I'm guessing.

Of course, my 133t typing also 5uck5.