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Onward christian soldiers

22:44 / 14.09.01

Anyone else watch the TV broadcast of the church service held in America about 4pm GMT?
My mind is still reeling. In a large cathedral the Bushes (George.W, Laura, George and Barbara), Hilary Rodham, Willy and Chelsea, Jimmy Carter top admin and military sat in the pews as 6 (?) religious leaders ministered from the pulpit, including Islamic, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Billy Graham and of course Doubya.

I can't really recall much of the detail (stoned and pissed at the time), but it was frightening in its invocation of God as the God of America, preparing Americans for war.
A naval choir sang what seemed to be a battle hymn, Billy Graham promised salvation - idealism, idealism, idealism - US land of the saved, innocence, ferocity - Geroge W, a stumbling Southern ol' boy, stiff and offering homilies when reading from his speech (from the pulpit!!!!!!!!), but natural and full of the fervour of sincerity and belief when he growled the word 'enemy', ...

Anyone else see it? I still can't believe it - it was operatic, high theatre, no separation of church(s) and state, a battle hymn and service . . .

23:07 / 14.09.01

Seperation of church is a detail for other times. Truth being, Christian philosophies are being abandoned anyway. That is, Christ's only two commandments of: love thy neighbor more than thyself, and God more than anything. Not to mention the principle of turning the other cheek, which may seem preposterous in light of the tragedy, but revenge begets only revenge, and never justice.

01:11 / 15.09.01

'Battle Hymn of the Republic' was sung at this militarist/ Religious service. The battle hymn comes from the American Civil War, Fortune city

The lyric includes justification of martyrdom - isn't that part of the problem?

On the separation of Church and state:
Puritan separatists the Pilgrim Fathers
The Mayflower Compact - c1620
"In the name of God, amen.We, whose names are underwritten . . .solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God, and one another . . .combine ourselves together into a civil body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation . . . And by virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and frame , such just and equal Laws . . . from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General Good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due Submission and Obedience."

Words to the Star Spangled Banner here:
infoplease

Dylan wrote a questioning folk song on the assumption of "America's God" - "With God on our side" lyrics and interesting discussion here:
Fortune City
Audio and lyrics here:
Bob Dylan

[ 15-09-2001: Message edited by: agarchy ]

[ 15-09-2001: Message edited by: agarchy ]

Ganesh

01:25 / 15.09.01

It's weirdly stark: Christianity vs. Islam, the Crusades revisited. Conveniently (for Bush et al) however, it's neither orthodox Christianity nor Islam. I wish they wouldn't sully two perfectly decent religions...

02:16 / 15.09.01

Another perspective on the religious angle:

Bahai religion

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

06:10 / 15.09.01

Didn't see that, but I did see Pat Robertson (a man not himself noted for his progressive views) describing as "inappropriate" and "quoted out of context" remarks apparently made by Jerry Falwell on TV that the blame for events lies with- get this- "pagans, feminists, homosexuals and abortionists".
What the fuck?

06:13 / 15.09.01

To my mind 'Christian Soldiers' is an oxymoron as well as a hell of a tune. I'm even deeply suspicious of the Jesus Army:- what a crap concept.

The only thing a Christian should be doing in military garb is what the bravest did during the European wars this century; go out there unarmed and support the wounded, bringing in the dead. I hope I would have the bottle for that.

06:13 / 15.09.01

quote:Originally posted by agarchy:
'Battle Hymn of the Republic' was sung at this militarist/ Religious service.

That's what scared me.

12:16 / 15.09.01

Perhaps they've got access to apocryphal gospels in which Jesus gets rescued from the cross by Israeli marines who then shoot the shit out of the romans. And attack football stadia throughout Italy in revenge.

I dunno; maybe I don't understand Christianity.

12:23 / 15.09.01

Actually, your posts show that you understand it quite well.

Nice to have you around, Luke Wing.

23:38 / 15.09.01

I really don't understand America's mix of certain strains of Christianity with Presidential power/righteousness and the belief that the US is the world's democratic 'flagship'. Maybe its America's Puritan roots, that generates and legitimates the pronouncements of George W - we are pure, saved, righteous, free, justified (all myopic beliefs: who funded the Afghanistan rebels;who now form the Bin Laden harbouring Taliban in the 1980s war against the Russians - anyone remember the civillian deaths in Hiroshima/ Nagasaki?)Maybe it's the military industrial complex that provides the muscle in arms/ capital to scare dissenting voices, to threaten to remove the advertising doillars that any questioning media outlet might consider producing.
I dunno.

Rizla, I'm scared too. My Prime Minister, has apparently promised Bush an open cheque book in his endeavours. All this in a time leading up to a tightly fought federal election - it has shades of Thatcher and the Falklands.

Luke, Muse, Stoatie - this possible crusade, holy war, isn't about Jesus, it's about organised religion, and that particular strain of organised religion that seeks to purify its followers by wiping out the infidels, the heathen, the non-believers.

I know that there are dissenting voices out there, (chomsky, et al) but reaching the theocracy, the hegemonic class of the US, seems to be the problem.
How, can this central decision wielding power be reached? Is America, and allies, headed for a Vietnam style war with Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Arab states??

[ 16-09-2001: Message edited by: agarchy ]

[ 16-09-2001: Message edited by: agarchy ]

04:05 / 16.09.01

The thing that got me was when Dub'ya started to talk of reatliation during his speech in the church. For crying out loud! Its a church, save your John Wayning for the white house. It should be a time of reflection and mourning. Not a sales pitch (which is what alot of the speeches there sounded like).
America: now with 20% more GOD(tm) than ever before. America, pitbulling the world until we're right.

BTW when this breaks out im heading for my cottage in the woods.

reidcourchie

07:29 / 18.09.01

I'm not sure who it was but I think some idiot Senator started refering to the expected conflict as a crusade.

Well that'll help.

07:40 / 18.09.01

when we heard on the news yesterday that dubya was going 'to rid the world of evil-doers' my g/f started singing the theme to 'batman'. this man was barely (if at all) voted into power and so many lives are in his hands.

Ganesh

07:40 / 18.09.01

The 'Good/Evil' rhetoric is dangerously reductive stuff, but at least he throws in some light relief in suggesting it's a good idea to 'whip' those 'folks'...

10:22 / 18.09.01

The sad thing is that even if Bush actually was an Old West sheriff, he'd probably be the hopeless, drunken one who John Wayne has to sober up in time to fight the bad guys..

The Damned Yankee

11:47 / 18.09.01

At work we have a driver who constantly has the volume on his truck's radio maxed out and tuned to a fundamentalist Christian radio station. Everyone else is annoyed as fuck by it, but so far, nobody's been able to convince him to turn it down.

Anyway, I was doing some work in the garage with this Christian call-in show acting as a soundtrack. I had little choice but to listen, much in the same way that one "listens" to a song booming from a passing car.

It was un-fucking-believeable. These people were practically drooling to go to war for Jesus against the Heathen. This, in their mind, is probably the best thing that ever happened to them since the Soviet Union went kaput. I guess they figure that fundamentalist Muslims make better enemies than even godless Soviets. After all, what better way to prove that God is on our side than to bomb the fuck out of a group that says God is on their side?

Or, worse, maybe they see this coming conflict as the beginning of Armageddon, before which all of the "good" Christians will ascend to Heaven, leaving the rest of us to deal with the consequences of the war they helped start.

Either way, these people are nuts.

11:58 / 18.09.01

Hmm. maybe if the fundaMentalists on both sides were to hurry up and 'ascend', the rest of us could do something about sorting the planet out.

The Damned Yankee

22:35 / 18.09.01

Another thing: My place of work is the county library, where I drive a bookmobile. One of our most requested series is this "Left Behind" crap, chronicling the Rapture, the Final Days and the rise of the Antichrist. It all follows Scripture, of course, with the shit hitting the fan after all of the fundies have exited stage right.

Personally, I think they've got it all wrong. The day the saved are called into heaven is the day the rest of us crack open the champagne and celebrate, saying "Thank God they're gone! Let's party!"

08:24 / 19.09.01

I read this comedy-Sci-Fi book once in which the rapture comes and all the fundamentalists rise from the ground. "Ha ha!," they shout at the folk below, "We're being lifted up to heaven!"
Then after they've risen a few hundred feet, they stop rising and fall back to earth. SPLAT!

funny.