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Death

 
  

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Not Here Still
16:39 / 03.04.02
My thoughts on death:

a: "I'm not scared of dying - I just don't want to be there when it happens."

A quote from Woody Allen, I think. But seeing as there seems to be some problem with using quotes here, I'll modify it a little bit.

I have no fear of death. Whatever happens, happens when I die.

I have a scrappy theory about it, drawing on all sorts of stuff, which I will try to outline below.

But I am not scared of death or what happens after - I just don't want to be in pain when it happens.

I am terrified of pain and of dying in pain.

Let me die peacefully.

b: My general theory on death is that, ultimately, I will not die.

Which considering I have just said that I don't want to die in pain may take some explaining.

Well, Good Luck, because my explanations are pretty crap at the best of times. Here goes -

The basic premise of my theory is that everything is one. We are all energy in various forms.

So when I die, my own, individual, consciousness may cease to function, but the energy which is me at the moment will continue to be somewhere in the world.

I am not sure if I believe in religious theories, such as Heaven or Nirvana, but I don't think consciousness will end - I will just become part of a greater consciousness.

I could quote Bill Hicks here: ""Matter is merly energy condensed to a slow vibration, we're all one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is just a dream
and we are the imagination of ourselves."

But of course, if I did, it would look as though I had taken my thoughts from a *comedian*, God forbid, when we just happen to share a similar idea. And, of course, a consciousness. And that would be plain silly.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
19:54 / 03.04.02
"Do you ever think of yourself as actually dead, lying in a box with a lid on it? It's silly to be depressed by it. I mean one thinks of it as being alive in a box, one keeps on forgetting to take into account the fact that one is dead...which should make a difference...shouldn't it? I mean, you'd never know you were in a box, would you? It would be just like being asleep in a box. Not that I'd like to sleep in a box, mind you, not without any air-you'd wake up dead, for a start and then where would you be? apart from inside a box. That's the bit I don't like, frankly. That's why I don't think of it...because you'd be helpless wouldn't you? Stuffed inside a box like that, I mean you'd be in there forever, even taking into account the fact that you're dead. Really...ask yourself, if I asked you straighnt off-I'm going to stuff you in this box now, would you rather be alive or dead? naturally you'd prefer to be alive. Life in a box is better than no life at all. I expect. You'd have a chance at least. You could lie there thinking-well, at least I'm not dead!"

Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead! By Tom Stoppard.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:48 / 03.04.02
Bitchiekittie said:

this bit is interesting, though:
"And, unless we all agree not to breed, we have to die"

do you mean that in having children, its a sort of continuation of our own personal existence (beyond the mere passing of genes and all that goes with it)?


I'm afraid my perspective was rather more prosaic; that if we breed without dying, we will run out of space rather quicker than we are at the moment.
 
 
alas
21:19 / 03.04.02
well, shakespeare's no george harrison (smile--I actually like george harrison and sometimes think w.s. is over-rated), but i love the sonnets... esp #73 . . .

1 That time of year thou mayst in me behold
2 When yellow leaves, or none, or few, do hang
3 Upon those boughs which shake against the cold,
4 Bare ruin'd choirs, where late the sweet birds sang.
5 In me thou see'st the twilight of such day
6 As after sunset fadeth in the west,
7 Which by and by black night doth take away,
8 Death's second self, that seals up all in rest.
9 In me thou see'st the glowing of such fire
10 That on the ashes of his youth doth lie,
11 As the death-bed whereon it must expire,
12 Consum'd with that which it was nourish'd by.
13 This thou perceiv'st, which makes thy love more strong,
14 To love that well which thou must leave ere long.

Is it, in fact, the knowledge that our conscious life is brief, that makes love possible, intense, and feel so like the pinnacle of what it is to live?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:30 / 03.04.02
Actually, there was a thread in books about the Iliad which addressed that question - will find it if I get a moment.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
21:43 / 03.04.02
Yep.

Oh sorry, I'm ignoring Haus!

lOVELY FUCKING SONNET!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:53 / 03.04.02
I'm not sure that love and death are so connected... while it is clear to me that sometimes a person will die because they've given up after a partner's died I think that people would love whether they were going to die or not. It's loneliness rather then death that spurs a person in to love and even then some people choose to be alone because they have no one they want to dedicate themselves to, at least no one they can have.

Having said all of that judging from my own grandparents experience I think death pushes people together when it seems unlikely... seeing people die a lot and having that shared experience gives people an outlook that many others don't have.

I've always believed in reincarnation maybe because I like the idea or maybe because I've always got intense deja'vu when meeting people for the first time. Whichever way I'm not about to give up the idea because it is so nice... I usually fall for people who I get the deja'vu about so love and death do kind of meld together for me, I always wonder if anyone else has experienced this or am I just really really weird?
 
 
Utopia
22:09 / 03.04.02
"i'm gonna die with no tears in my eyes because *god's my daddy*"
(the residents, "burn baby burn")

pretty much sez it all

thanks flux
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:25 / 04.04.02
Ah, yes, here we go..


Implicit within the idea of heroism is mortality. Achilles makes this clear when he spells out that he could have stayed at home and been fated to live a long life. Then again, Achilles is a special case, and that life would come to an end anyway.

Sarpedon points out to Glaucus that there is no way to ensure immortality just by not turning up to battles, and adds that their readiness to fight and die is why the Lycians give them pride of place at the banquetting table and the best cuts of meat.

Interestingly, this is not entirely because they are champions and protectors of their people. The Lycian interest is not served by having their best men go off and die at Troy, a fact often picked up on when allies of the Trojans die by a comment on how their family far away mourned them. They are honoured not because of what they fight for but because they fight - because it is *heroic* to do so.

So what makes a hero? Well, first up, Greek and Trojan are organised along timocratic lines - whoever has the most honour is in charge. Therefore the man with most honour is the most "noble", or the "greatest". Uncle Friedrich is very interesting on the use of adjectives in Ancient Greek.

Honour (time) is connecte to the abstract idea of "excellence" (arete), which is like but unlike the Latin "virtus", meaning "possession of the manly virtues". Honour, in terms of how you are treated, can be seen as an instantiation of your arete.

So, I would suggest that one of the central debates of the Iliad is what actually constitutes excellence, and what is honourable, and this debate begins in the first book.

Excellence in battle is clearly one measure of heroism, but by no means the only one. Elsewhere, people are accorded respect for their ability to compete in various sports, their capacity to speak in the Assmebly (Diomedes, as an excellent fighter and an excellent speaker, can be seen as something of a model of heroism), and, of course, their wealth and power.

And it's here that we hit a fundamental problem. As leader of the Achaian forces, Agamemnon has to be able to command respect. If he is deprived of one fo the manifestations of the honour he is accorded - Chryseis - his ability to command respect is reduced. So, by taking Briseis, he effectively sets up a conflict between the value of a hero with wealth and soldiers to back his claims to preeminence, and that of somebody who exemplifies the individual virtues. If it were just a question of who is hardest, bravest etc, Achilles would obviously win, but the fact that they are both kings and base their claims to honour on this as much as on personal qualities makes a difference.

Agamemnon in Book 9 makes his offer and (although Odysseus and Aias cleverly don't repeat it, IIRC) adds that Achilles should accept this as Agamemnon is the greater *king*. And this is something Achilles fundamentally cannot do - the issue here is not Briseis (and he may claim to love her as a wife, but makes it clear in Book 9 that he has never thought of marrying her), but whether Agamemnon's nobility entitles him to take her.

Note that this argument is never resolved - when Achilles "reconciles" with Agamemnon, he brushes the matter aside as no longer relevant - he is moving beyond the codes of heroism and nobility as he is moving beyond being strictly speaking human or indeed strictly speaking alive.

Add to that the fact that other characteristics apparently unconcerned with martial valour or the strength of one's armies can also be seen as worthy of honour - Paris' "gifts of Aphrodite", Achilles' ability to run fast at track meets, Patroclus' kindness and way with a cocktail shaker - and things get yet more complex. I would propose that anything self-defining is honourable when done well; in general, lying and cheating may be seen as "dishonourable", but because Odysseus has it as his schtick and does it well it is in his hands admirable.

So, heroism can be seen as the possession of a variety of personal or societal advantages and the willingness to deprive oneself of all of them through an early death, even when that death benefits nobody. By which logic, immortal entities can by definition not be heroic.


And lots of other yummy ruminating here.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
10:30 / 04.04.02
Does anyone else think this should have been left in the head shop? WHY has it been moved to the conversation? It's completely irrelevant here and no-one digs it.
 
 
higuita
11:01 / 04.04.02
I dunno - just coz it's the conversation doesn't mean it can't have the occasional serious side. It doesn't really matter where it is.

Regarding Not Me Again's quote of Bill Hicks - 'Matter is merly energy condensed to a slow vibration, we're all one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is just a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves."
this seems like a nicely sharp summary of Schopenhauer's World as Will & Representation, and ties in nicely to a lot of mystical writings.
Which just goes to show how groovy Bill was/is/shall be.
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:09 / 04.04.02
I'm afraid my perspective was rather more prosaic; that if we breed without dying, we will run out of space rather quicker than we are at the moment

ah, the ever-pragmatic haus - I should have known better!
 
 
lolita nation
19:21 / 04.04.02
i catch myself worrying about getting old much more than dying. and life doesn't feel that brief to me.. most parts of it seem to take much longer than i want them to... 'in headaches and in worry' and whatnot.

i like the sonnet - but isn't shakespeare rather singing the praises of his, um, relative oldness to the "young man"? that the 'fire/that on the ashes of his youth doth lie' being the creative impulse or the wisdom to control those 'intense' self-consuming passions you were talking about? please excuse me if i am way off base. oh god, this is in the completely wrong forum. sorry !
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:52 / 04.04.02
Does anyone else think this should have been left in the head shop? WHY has it been moved to the conversation? It's completely irrelevant here and no-one digs it.

Well, perhaps because of statements like that.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. You're ignoring me. Maybe you should post to point it out more often.

It was moved because two moderators agreed sequentially that it should be. One of those was me, and I am in the interests of transparency quite happy to explain why, either here or in policy. Essentially, it seemed that there was nothing very "head-shoppy" about the discussion as it had evolved, and that by leaving it in the Head Shop it seemed that it would merely deprive it of the wider audience of the Conversation without any particularly good purpose.
 
 
Horus lord of force and fire
22:27 / 04.04.02
ummmh...almost half-one by my watch.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:31 / 04.04.02
BECAUSE, YOU SEE, HE'S IGNORING HAUS!

ISN'T THAT COOL! LOOK AT HIM IGNORE HAUS! WHAT A COOL GUY!

WHAT? FORGOTTEN EVEN FOR A SECOND THAT HORUS IS IGNORING HAUS, CRAZY ICONOCLAST THAT HE IS?

HE'D BETTER MENTION IT AGAIN THEN!

LOOK! LOOK AT HIM!

Ah, the joy of the Conversation. Sorry all, will try not to feed the echidnas further.
 
 
Thjatsi
23:06 / 04.04.02
The possibility of nonexistence terrifies me. When I think about myself not existing, it's as if something deep inside of me screams, "No!". If I persist in thinking about death, I can give myself nausea, and I think that if I persisted beyond that I would most likely vomit. If I had to choose between an eternity in hell suffering the worst torture imaginable, and not being anymore, I would take hell.

No reason along the lines of, "Well you're dead, so what does it matter?", is of any help to me. I think it is just my nature to despise nonexistence. However, here are a few things that help:

First, I am dedicating my life to trying to stop death. I have recently been accepted to a graduate program in molecular biology, where I will be working on aging research. While I suspect that we will probably find a halfway decent method for delaying senscence in my lifetime, I doubt that anyone will find a way to stop it permanently before I am gone. Still, the thought that someone someday might be able to do it because of my actions helps a lot.

Second, deciding to spend the rest of my life doing science research has given me a sense of purpose, and this makes the thought of death easier to bare. I know that, no matter what happens, I am contributing to a discipline that I consider incredibly beneficial to humanity.

Third, the population geneticist J.B.S. Haldane came up with an interesting idea regarding the afterlife. He proposed that if what we are is only a collection of molecules, and if there is a finite amount of molecules, and if these molecules are constantly moving around forever, we will eventually be reborn when the molecules reform, and this will happen an infinite amount of times given that time does not stop or end. Unfortunately, this idea predated the big bang theory. However, it seems to hold if you follow the bang-contract school of thought instead of the bang-expand forever school of thought. I first encountered this idea in one of Carl Sagan's books, so I'm assuming that it has at least a possibility of happening given our current knowledge of physics.

Fourth, the thought that the theists might be right gives me comfort.

Fifth, I haven't researched near death experiences enough to come to a conclusion about them.

Sixth, once I get enough money together, I'm taking out one of those insurance policies where my head gets frozen after I die. It probably won't work, but the expense really isn't that high, and I think it's worth a shot.
 
  

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