BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


BOOK CLUB: Noam Chomsky's 9-11

 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:03 / 02.04.02
Right, gotta get this one going. My feeling is that not that many people have actually got hold of this yet, so I'm going to start with a few general thoughts and see what happens... I'm not going to cover too much of the content at first, because I want to see whether we can sustain this in the books forum context (I have a feeling it might be too switchboardy otherwise).

Sooo... apart from the content, which was shocking and enlightening in parts, I was intrigued by the structure of the book. Basically, I thought that the way the interviews were condensed, and the repetition of a fair chunk of material throughout, as well as the reiteration of Chomksy's opinions, made it seem more like a tract than a book - Chomsky seemed to be really bludgeoning his facts and his opinions into the heads of his listeners. I found this slightly irritating after a while - especially the way he kept saying 'the evidence for >US atrocity< is easily available for those who maintain an interest in these things' - I dare say this was meant to make people feel guilty, but a few more footnotes and pointers would have been helpful. No doubt the interview format was largely responsible for this, but it did give the book a rather pedagogical feel which put my back up.

I do think it would have had more impact on me had I read it nearer the time of the WTC attacks; but in the interim I had read quite a lot of the arguments in the book online (a lot of them here).

I'm interested in what makes a non-fiction book, especially a slightly polemical one, successful. Naomi Klein's No Logo also relies on a limited body of evidence - she constantly refers backwards and forwards in the text to her discussions of the McLibel trial... but in slight contrast, George Monbiot's Captive State takes a different outrage every chapter; his picture is perhaps less completely coherent as a result.

How important is style, presentation of evidence and structure to non-fiction books of this type? What did you think of the effectiveness of them? Did they convince you as they set out to?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:03 / 02.04.02
Before I address some of your points, Kit-Kat, I'd like to admit I have only read the first two interviews so far, (I plan to have the thing finished within the next two days), but as I read quite a few Chomsky interviews both during the period covered by this book (roughly from 9-11 to the beginning of October, before the bombing in Afghanistan started, if anyone is confused), I think I feel safe in commenting on a few things.

First off, I would actually say that 9-11 is a misnomer for this book, as the content thus far (and in everything I've read by Chomsky about the issue) seems to focus not on the events of 9-11 and what they will subsequently mean, but on the historic legacy of "american atrocities", repeated by chomsky if by rote over the course of several interviews, with as Kit-Kat points out, no scholarly apparatus to back up his contentions. My feelings on this lack of sourcing are roughly identical to yours, Kit-Kat, in that I think it bespeaks an intellectual arrogance that can be off-putting to anyone expecting a sober analysis of facts. As far as the repetition goes, everyone who is familiar in the slightest with Chomsky knows that he has his hobbyhorses, which in the case seem to have only the slightest bearing on the events of 9-11 (What exactly is the tortuous logic he uses to connect U.S. actions in Nicaragua to the events of 9-11?). Granted, some things need bringing up again and again so that people won't forget about them, but it turns what appears to the reader as a topical book into a more abstract tome. And these weighty considerations if the U.S. will be seen on the right side of history (free Chomsky answer: no) are distracting because of the even more weighty practical concerns (in the time period covered by the book, what action in Afghanistan should look like; now, what the process of nation-building in afghanistan should look like) are not really addressed.

Repetition is also a sign of boredom on the part of the speaker/writer. Being charitable, we can attribute this to fact that Chomsky was no doubt beseiged by interview requests during this time frame, and had to deal with interviewers who asked stupid questions (ie, the one about U.S Secret Service collusion with the attacks in the first interview). However, what it adds up to is a picture of a Intellectual Cassandra, the ignored prophet who is tired of preaching his word when the world is obviously not listening. There is a sense of "Don't you people get it already"? implicit in his tone and again, the rote repitition of facts.

Haven't read The Captive State (don't think it is available here), but I think No Logo is far more successful using a limited body of evidence as in that case, the evidence IS the polemnic; it almost speaks for itself, whereas Chomsky has to take his limited body of facts and logically connect them to a thesis he's already come up with. Perhaps I'm not explaining that well. Well, it is easy to see how "McLibel" fits into Klein's overall message about globalization and consumer culture; it is less easy to see how U.S. actions in Nicaragua fit into an explanation of the events of 9-11.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:07 / 02.04.02
Well, Captive State is about the corporatisation of British politics, so I suppose it hasn't been published in the US becasue it would be of relatively limited interest... Monbiot is good value, though; you can find some of his stuff at MediaLens (which is a good resource for Chomsky as well, btw).

What exactly is the tortuous logic he uses to connect U.S. actions in Nicaragua to the events of 9-11?

I don't think he really means to say that the US actions in Nicaragua led to the events of 9-11... I think it's meant to illustrate the fact that the US is itself a terrorist nation, and thus to highlight the hypocrisy Chomsky sees in a great deal of the rhetoric surrounding the actions in Afghanistan. But the thing is, because he's speaking in a polemical manner in these interviews, it does sound rather as though he is saying that it was a factor for the hijackers...

I think it would have been a more convincing argument if he had actually written the thing himself, and taken a bit more time over it (as it is the book could have done with a deal of editing IMO); but would it have been as effective as a radical tool?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:18 / 03.04.02
Nearly bought this yesterday... for the sake of discussion I think I'll go and buy it this morning. On the subject of Captive State- I get what you mean about lack of general coherence, but taken as pieces of a puzzle the chapters do make a very unpleasant picture. However, dealing as it does with UK domestic politics- infrastructure/nuts'n'bolts stuff- it's never gonna seem quite as "inyerface" as Klein or Chomsky.
Anyway. More when I've read the Chomsky.
 
 
ephemerat
06:54 / 03.04.02
Firstly; I really enjoyed this book, however I felt it lacked huge swathes of information that were directly pertinent to the author's case: primarily, economic and political motivations on the part of the US. Many of his responses seemed entirely dismissive of US foreign policy without examining its goals. The result is a tone that could easily be read as dismissive petulance - several times he describes US policy as irrational or motivated by 'domestic concerns' (whose foreign policy isn't?) but these concerns are couched in such vague terms that they seem utterly opaque. Without any analysis of US and European motivations his arguments lack balance and can seem incoherent. Hopefully his intention is to force the reader to ask 'Why are we doing this?' (rather than merely attempting to answer: 'Why are they doing this?') but it was a dimension I felt was huge in its absence.
 
 
Seth
10:09 / 03.04.02
If I had a quid for every time he stated "this is not the time or place to go into that in depth" or "I have written about this in depth elsewhere" (the latter coment wouldn't be so bad if were not for the large amount of repeated material in the book). I haven't read a great deal of Chomsky, but I would have liked the book to have included at least a reference to the other material sited.

I agree that the interview format worked against it if you already understand even just a little of the wider issues, although I can also see the logic in rush releasing what essentially seems like a gift/pocket sized virtual pamphlet to at least try to conteract the institutional voice.

He seems to choose Nicaragua because it is "uncontroversial," ie; no-one with a fair knowledge of events will deny the three-time conviction of unlawful use of force. It also serves as an example of legal precedents being pursued as opposed to terrorist retaliation.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:05 / 03.04.02
Well, that's all well and good, but it neatly sidesteps the issue that the Taliban were an outlaw regime, unrecognized by the majority of the world's governements and thus, really, outside the scope of International Law and the World Court. That's IF such institutions work anyway, which they manifestly don't, given the farce of the U.S. Nicaragua decision and the Milosevic trial.

It's funny that you said this pamphlet was meant to "counteract" the institutional voice, as Chomsky points out in several places that media/public reaction to the attacks was much less monolithic than (specifically) the European Intellectual elite made it out to be. He says something like "even the New York Times" has been printing coverage of the anti-war sentiment on the streets of NYC, etc. In my opinion, during the month of December 2001, mainstream media in the U.S. had its finest hour of presenting diverse opinions and facts about the enviroment surrounding the attacks.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:16 / 03.04.02
This has often puzzled me... I had a brief email exchange with a US hawk who thought that the 'European Intellectual Elite' were all decadent and perverted; but he couldn't tell me who they were...

[Switchboard territory]: International law and the idea of a world court would have a much better chance of working if more major nations were prepared to subscribe to them wholeheartedly... and indicting a dictator is always going to be a bit tricky because they tend to have underlings to do the really dirty work.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:53 / 03.04.02
I think by "european intellectual elite" they mean "Guardian Editorial Writers." Which are arguably any of those, I guess.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:08 / 03.04.02
Yes, that's what I thought he meant... but surely that can't be what Chomsky thinks; the Guardian is definitely the national paper most attuned to his theory in Britain.

I did think, when I was reading Captive State, that it read more like an extended edition of Private Eye - are these political books extensions of the media, or can they function independently? I suppose what I am really asking is, are they ever going to be bought and read by people who are not already at least partly sympathetic to the views they propound? Somehow I can't imagine there's a huge 'conversion rate' - and I think Chomsky's manner in the book, as we discussed it above (and it seems that pretty much everyone agrees on this) is almost guaranteed to put people off rather than making them think...
 
 
Cavatina
13:42 / 03.04.02
Posted by Kit-Cat:

"I don't think he really means to say that the US actions in Nicaragua led to the events of 9-11... I think it's meant to illustrate the fact that the US is itself a terrorist nation, and thus to highlight the hypocrisy Chomsky sees in a great deal of the rhetoric surrounding the actions in Afghanistan. But the thing is, because he's speaking in a polemical manner in these interviews, it does sound rather as though he is saying that it was a factor for the hijackers... "

I agree, especially as he first denies that economic globalization and cultural hegemony have anything to do with the bombing (p.30) before he focusses specifically on the past U.S. acts of violence which have resulted in the deaths of millions of civilians. However, although he continually returns to the case of Nicaragua and U.S. terrorist treatment of the Sandinista government in particular, I think that it is in his discussion of the 1998 bombing of the Sudan Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant that he comes closest to positing a direct connection with the events of September 11 (pp. 45-54 in my edition):

'When bin Laden brings up that bombing, he strikes a resonant chord ... . ... the Sudan case is highly instructive ... ' etc.
 
 
netbanshee
23:00 / 04.04.02
...so would it be safe to say that if one knows Chomsky's schtick pretty well...especially his views regarding the WTC attack, that the book could be overlooked as a 'must read'? It seems that overall, he does repeat himself a great deal when he interviews since he seems to want to make facts that are easily overlooked more clear...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:34 / 05.04.02
Well, I haven't read any other Chomsky really, so am not well qualified - but having said that, yes, I think you could skip it without feeling too bad or missing much. I am glad I read it, as it has given my opinions a little more form than they had before, and I would read a 'proper' book by Chomsky (with, you know, proper footnotes and stuff... don't necessarily want to read them, I just want to know they're there). But if you're familiar with Chomsky I'd guess you could leave it. I really think it does function more as a tract than a full-length book - sort of 'Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God' for left-wing radicals...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:55 / 05.04.02
Almost finished it (have a bus journey in a minute that should let me polish it off) and I have to agree- most of its failings (repetition, no source references) are due to its format as a collection of interviews and probably unavoidable. No, it's not gonna convert anyone, because who's gonna read it unless they're already interested? (Though I plan on lending it to a whole bunch of people who I think might learn something).
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:31 / 05.04.02
So we've talked about the format of the book, and about the problems that we have with it; what did you think of the content? Did it convince you, or did you feel there were places were more could have been said? Did the tone distract from the content at all?

For me - I thought that it would have been more effective if there had been less repetition; I think it's probably clear from what I've said so far that I really thought the format let the book down - and often Chomsky sounds bored, so his argument seems boring. But I thought that the bones of the argument were convincing in general - though I do think there was a bit too much 'cause-and-effect' style arguing going on, which really needs evidence to seem substantial...

I also disagree that American political/military actions are the only factor behind the hatred some Islamists have for the U.S. (and the rest of the West) - I think there is definitely a tendency for some radical Muslims in the Muslim diaspora to live among the infidel while actively hating secular Western society. But given that Western society doesn't necessarily treat Muslims very well at all, this is not surprising...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:43 / 10.04.02
Nudge nudge...
 
  
Add Your Reply