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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

Ways To Talk About What You Read

  
  

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Goodness Gracious Meme
17:30 / 07.04.02
Ariadne, know what you mean, not a great reader compared to some people round here so tend to lurk and watch as people do their book thing!

And hey, contemporary Scottish sounds good to me, if you fancy doing a swop with me, next time I'm in london, or someone's coming down, we could swop, give ourselves a month/couple of weeks to read something and talk about it here. That'd suit me as I'm poor as church mouse...

What you think? And what'd you be up for reading? Hmm, don't know what my specialities are, I guess contemporary queer stuff, non-fiction/fiction relating to music, performative/fictionalised biographies/life stories, some feminist lit... Not at home but could go peer at my bookshelves if you're up for it and let give you some suggestions...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:34 / 07.04.02
Or perhaps a thread where people post their 'big things' and sort out swops (don't have to be actual bookswopping, just an agreement to grab something recommended by the other/s. small scale might be a more manageable way to do book clubs, and also to create a whole load of threads, which other people would probably want to contribute to...)

what do the moderators think?
 
 
Trijhaos
17:34 / 07.04.02
I like the area of specialization idea too. Hmm...I suppose one would say my area of specilization is sci-fi/fantasy with an emphasis on fantasy.
Currently, I don't have any chat software running, I don't know the difference between the two. I think I signed up for AIM once a few years ago, but I lost both my account name and password.

What would be the best chat program to use?
 
 
Ariadne
20:13 / 07.04.02
At the risk of sounding like a total paranoid, I'm a wee bit wary of book lending, having lost so many! But hey, I can always publicly shame people who don't return them, I guess...
(BTW that's not directed at you directly, Plums, you seem a good book-returning kinda person)
It's a good idea, this smaller group thing, I think. Other people can join in if they want, too.
I'd be keen to read more sci fi, if people could recommend things, and I'd also appreciate suggestions on more classics stuff - I've thoroughly enjoyed The Odyssey and I'm now onto Gulliver's Travels (because I think I read that the first influenced the second?), but someone to lead me would be great.
Oh, and if anyone knows some decent modern French authors, that'd be great.
 
 
Ariadne
20:15 / 07.04.02
whoops - coding meltdown. There's no particular stress meant on that last para!
 
 
Trijhaos
20:18 / 07.04.02
I may have read the message wrong, but I don't think any actual swapping is involved.
 
 
Ariadne
20:46 / 07.04.02
The swapping was just something Plums suggested, Trijhaos, cause I know her IRL and she's skint. And I'm regretting sounding so tight - you can borrow anything you like, Plums!
But the more I think about this the more I like the idea. If we have, say, one big monthly 'book club' running and then a few smaller chats going alongside it, there's bound to be something for everyone.
 
 
Cavatina
10:11 / 08.04.02
That sounds good to me, too. And really it seems little different from what we've actually had over recent months. I've appreciated the way Kit-Cat has introduced the monthly book by providing some focal points to get comments rolling and then has facilitated as the discussion has taken its own shape. This must be a considerable time commitment, and with three enthusiastic moderators the responsibility for it can be spread around.

As I see it, the main problem has been getting some sort of consensus about what to read for the month. But there does appear to be a cluster of contributors to the bookclub; and, as is the case in other(off-line) reading groups, I think that we just have to accept that not everyone is going to be wildly enthusiastic about what emerges from the show of hands each time. Nevertheless, as individuals, we can be accommodating and contribute as we are able.

Overall, I guess I'm not keen to see things become too structured or specialized. Having generic categories doesn't appeal to me, for instance - if only because novels are rarely generically pure. But I do like the idea of a poetry thread - with the texts for discussion on show, as suggested earlier - and also of the move to 'book personals' which, as Ariadne indicates, could readily evolve into interesting little public chats on the side.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:14 / 08.04.02
Some ideas I posted in the 'Biblioteca barbelith' thread a while back, which might be relevant here:

I've been trying to think of ways to remake the forum (with an eye to the upcoming evolution of the board), and I think that collaborative reading projects like this are definitely a way forward. We could, perhaps, have threads where people read connected books - that might help boost discussion a bit. So, for example, if we're going to read M, someone might read a bit of Vasari or the life of Benevenuto Cellini, someone could read some art history, someone else could look up stuff on biographies. This way, we could have more of the kind of information flow which has enriched the Iliad discussions

Posting 'as you go' threads should also throw up a number of interesting possibilities (as opposed to threads where one posts when one has completed a book and has a more 'finished' impression of it). It should, hopefully, make the forum much more vital.

I see these two ideas operating in tandem with the current thread types - reviews, recommendations, author discussions, Book Club and Notes and Queries, threads on issues relating to books and genres, and so on. I think the forum could have a real depth to it, which is a little lacking at the moment.

... that was just after the Iliad discussions, FYI. I think some of those ideas could be combined with the 'book personals' quite easily, especailly the 'post-as-you-read' idea. Of course this does require people committing to participate, but I am sure we can get that sorted - even if it does mean the moderators being a little more evangelical than I have been in the past.

I'm anxious for the forum not to be totally driven by moderator-owned threads, though.

I don't think I really do have a 'speciality area', Plums - and I am definitely not terrifyingly well-read, I just have a broad range of superficial knowledge... I do know quite a bit about school stories, but am not sure how much use that is going to be. I mean - obviously my speciality is history, but there's so much of the wretched stuff that if someone were to ask about good books on mediaeval England (e.g.) I would be completely useless. But I am definitely keen to read more classical literature (in translation of course), and I also feel that I should read more Victorian literature. And the Bible. And the Kalevala. And... anyone fancy a bash through Arthurian stuff? I feel the need to refresh.

Speaking of all this - we are going to need to set the text for the next Book Club soonish (assuming that 2nd June is a good date to start the next discussion - if we're going for 2nd May we need to set the text PRONTO). How do we want to do this? Shall I just call for suggestions, or shall we work from the bibliography (will supply link in a mo)?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:37 / 08.04.02
Well, Persephone and I are going to start Ulysses in tandem, soon - I thought May 1st, maybe? If only because that means the book should be finished by Bloomsday...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:46 / 08.04.02
Yus, here is the thread with the list in it (in five consecutive posts of mine, starts about halfway down).

Would like to read Ulysses too.
 
 
Cavatina
12:53 / 08.04.02
As I remember, there was some discussion of Peter Robb's M as a possibility. And also of John Cowper Powys' A Glastonbury Romance - a strange and great baggy monster, if ever there was one.
 
 
Cavatina
12:59 / 08.04.02
Just seen the list. Gad.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:07 / 08.04.02
Heh, yes, quite...

Yes, M was discussed as a possibility, along with a few others - Infinite Jest, Borges, IIRC - anyway the Biblioteca thread has them all in. Will bump it up shortly.
 
 
Ariadne
13:10 / 08.04.02
Oooh, that's a cool list - I want to read everything.
I'd be keen on:
Dorothea Brande - because (like everyone else!)I want to be a writer, and have been meaning to read it for a while. Plus the NLP angle is iteresting
Lewis Carroll - cause i know both books inside out and love them
Alasdair Gray - because I'm tediously predictable whenever he's mentioned
Jeff Noon - because I love some of his stuff and want to understand what the hell he's trying to do
and.... Jonathon Swift for the very-lazy reason that I'm currently reading and enjoying Gulliver's Travels.
 
 
Not Here Still
17:51 / 08.04.02
And as usual, I get excited about an invite and turn up as the party finishes. That'll teach me to bugger of to the hills for the weekend...

Ideas. Hmmmm.

Bit of an odd one: How about reading books which we would never normally read?

This could be done like the book club, but with an entirely different approach; to decide on a book which people would never normally read on Barbelith.

This could be for a number of reasons, which could come out in the thread; personal dislike, perhaps, would be a little limiting.

But just as we seem to be able, through discussion, to hit on books which we feel need to be discussed between us, I'd quite like to see us look at books which would never be discussed on Barbelith.

There are a number of possibilities this would open up.

One: people may find that they do like a certain book, genre, etc after all. More reading would then present itself.

Two: we may all hate the book. So what? We aren't just here to say 'I loved this book. Why don't you read it.' Surely the book forum can also say: 'I hated this book, and this is why I wouldn't suggest reading it.'

I for one spend a lot of time analysing why I like things on Barbelith, but not nearly enough time looking into why I don't like something. Having a book I didn't like and talking about why I didn't like it would almost certainly get me thinking more, which can only be a good thing.

However, perhaps my idea is fatally flawed. Personally, I think I could probably keep myself pushing through the book if it is bad enough - just for the pleasure of savaging it later. But maybe asking people to read books they know they would hate is a non-starter. What do you all think?

(That's my initial idea - I'll now go back and re-read teh trhead, and return later with more points.)
 
 
Persephone
22:56 / 08.04.02
Actually that I am about to read Ulysses came up in a books-you-hate thread, which was a listy type thread & lots of fun. Interestingly, people *will* describe more of books in a list of books they hate. I believe in that thread I scythed down most of the Moderns, the place where Lit. and I begin to part company; but Rothkoid et. al. mightily rose to Joyce's defense.

Continuing the idea of reading books you wouldn't normally, I really love the idea of sussing people's specialties; I would rather read something really different, but on a guided tour.

Finally, for the pop bitches... I haven't read a scrap of contemporary literary fiction, but have perfectly rotted my brain with contemporary trash fiction. There's a Jacqueline Susann thread floating around that I definitely intend to follow up on; last I checked, Cherry posted a very debatable (in a good way) question re: feminist critique of Valley. I figure all we need to get that going is to definitely select the text and set a time...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:35 / 10.04.02
You know, if Book Personals takes off in the way it seems likely to (see the Ulysses thread), I think the Club may actually be redundant - it's certainly not as flexible... this way people who aren't interested in one text can still take part in a collaborative reading project, which is really good.

'Sides, if all the regulars are reading Ulysses through May, no one's going to have any *time* to read another major text for the Club...
 
 
grant
15:15 / 10.04.02
If it hadn't been Lent, I would've read The Iliad. It would have been my second attempt.

I also feel that I should read more Victorian literature. And the Bible. And the Kalevala. And... anyone fancy a bash through Arthurian stuff? I feel the need to refresh.

I love Le Morte D'Arthur - it's my traveling book. Lots of narrative fractals in that (and a few boring battle scenes - and a definite need for a geneology chart, for those of us who read a little, then put it down, then pick it up after a few months).

The Bible is also, in parts, far more interesting than you'd expect. The Old Testament, that is. I finished 1st and 2nd Kings this year - from Solomon (son of David) to the Babylonian captivity, briefly touching on exploits of Elijah, Elisha, and Jeremiah.
A map would've helped, but it's fun stuff. Everyone should read parts of it - Joshua, for instance, is directly relevant to current horrors in the Middle East. I'd definitely suggest doing a single book or related books (I think Kings and Chronicles retell the same history from different sides - the warring kingdoms of Judah and Israel, which split after the death of David, who was king of both. Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy are also fairly redundant and kind of boring - listing laws, history and relationships of the Exodus tribes.)
The interesting thing with the Bible and King Arthur is the ability to work in *parallel texts*, whether theological essays, historical precedents (Mabinogion, maybe) or postmodern refigurations.

A Q&A approach - the literary tour guide thing - would also be really great for discussion. Even for those of us who spend more time watching than contributing....
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:22 / 10.04.02
Yes, that's what I was thinking of with the Arthurian stuff - bring in the English metrical and prose versions, the French romances and the German ones (Parzifal), the Mabinogion, maybe Geoffrey of Monmouth... & then perhaps look at modern versions (though am less keen on this - horrid memories of Stephen Lawhead. But everyone should read the T. H. White one). It's quite an undertaking when you think about it...
 
 
grant
17:25 / 10.04.02
Actually, I wonder if it'd be possible to simply do a part of it - like the Grail Quest, or the Tristram & Isolde story. Might make for an easier read, and each of those has their own parallel texts.
The Medieval Lit class that introduced me to Malory, we just did the Grail Story, reading selected books from the whole work.
 
 
Persephone
12:32 / 11.04.02
I think the Club may actually be redundant

Eeep. Perhaps we should just incorporate some of the new ideas into the extant Book Club--the main one being that text selection and scheduling would not be moderator-centered? I.e., as soon as two people agree to read x book at y time, then it's off to the races & anyone can join in. It might also factor in that someone might be interested in discussing a certain text but is already committed time-wise, so then it could be decided to wait up or go on ahead. So there could be multiple Book Club threads going at once.

Maybe then "Book Personals" should be more of a jokey listy-type thread, where people troll (in a nice way) for book partners --or groups, not to be monogamonormative!

So then we would have two "pre-defined" sorts of lists--Book Lists for breadth and Book Clubs for pre-planned in-depth discussion? And leave the rest to grow naturally curly...

I very much want to read in the not-too-distant future this M and Glastonbury & I'd give the Hoeg a try, if I come acros't in Myopic.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:32 / 11.04.02
That idea about multiple Club-type threads arranged through the Personals is sort of what I was thinking of, actually - so, looking at the latest suggestions in the Biblioteca thread, Cholister could have a personals thread on Robin Hobb, heterodox could start one on Hoeg, Araidne can have one on Gray, and no one feels left out by the Club not picking their choice or (as is happening with the Chomsky discussion) the Club thread dying because not enough people have read the book, or because it was a poor choice in the first place... becasue what the Club really needs is enthusiasm and commitment from quite a few people - like the Iliad thread, and like the Ulysses collective reading promises to turn out.

I chiefly freaked about the Book Club, actually, becasue going by the two-month rule it would have to start on the second of June, and if everyone who regularly contributes in the forum (well - not everyone, but certainly a significant number of people) is engrossed in Ulysses for most of May, it's going to be a tall order to drum up support. But maybe I am being unnecessarily pessimistic... lots of us seem to plough through a fair wodge of text very month, after all.

The Lists & Club division might be quite neat though, with, as you say, the rest being left to sprout where it likes
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:38 / 11.04.02
Oh, Grant, sorry - yes, that might be the best way to tackle it... it would need to be a section otherwise we'll be here for the next five years. The Grail Quest is probably likely to turn out to be the most meaty, I reckon - are you familiar with the surrounding literature?

Oh, and are we going to have a long personals thread, or one for each prospective textbang?
 
 
grant
13:54 / 11.04.02
I'm sort of familiar with the Knights Templar, who were fairly influential in the formation of the story, I think. The idea of warrior monks, or monk warriors - holy killers after the blood of Christ.
I'm unfamiliar with Wagner's operatic versions, and have never plunged into other European mythologies about the Grail. I don't think the Mabinogion touches on this at all, does it? (and my asking that question should tell you all you need to know about that)

However, I could do a little web research....

Galahad is a kung fu fighter.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:06 / 11.04.02
I don't think the Mabinogion touches on it at all - but there is a sort of parallel in Celtic legends of cauldrons which revivify the dead and so on (clearly a reference to fertility at some level, as is the Grail - cf King Pelles' wound 'in the groin', and the Waste Land).

Perhaps we ought to have another thread for this...
 
 
grant
14:06 / 11.04.02
Oh, goodness.
The original Quest de Saint Graal, in an 1898 translation. (This is the second half of the grail legend, apparently.)

You want some grail?
You want some...GRAIL?


I should also mention that I find Tristan's (or Tristram's) story more interesting. He's like this strange fractal shadow of Lancelot, only without all the religion.
 
 
Persephone
22:18 / 11.04.02
I chiefly freaked about the Book Club, actually, becasue going by the two-month rule it would have to start on the second of June

Time and trial will show, but my sense is that shifting from a "two-month rule" to a negotiation model may help get more reading get done--e.g., because some people are not interested in reading Ulys and now they don't have to feel like the Club is closed to them for two months.

Oh, and are we going to have a long personals thread, or one for each prospective textbang?

I'd start with one thread, pretty much similar to or just a continuation of the Biblioteca thread. That gives one place for a person to shop around in, then if they see something they like they can make an offer like in a bazaar. Once a book's decided on, the partners can start a N&Q thread... not sure if there have to be separate N&Q and discussion threads, but I suppose that will vary depending on the way the discussion's going to go. They are talking separate threads for each chapter in Ulys, ye gods.

Maybe we could post in the Biblioteca thread how this is supposed to work? I'll leave that up to you, though.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:47 / 12.04.02
Yeah, that's a good idea (but the separate thread for each chapter of Ulysses - nonononono....). I'll PM you something to make sure we're agreed on it before I post...
 
  

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