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THE REAL DEAL- please post the HARDCORE magic books to read

21:56 / 30.03.02

<: I'm sick of all the new agey crap and I'm ready to (((EXPAND))) my knowledge...PLEASE :>

20:04 / 02.04.02

Hardcore eh? Well what are you focusing on?
If your looking for ceremonial texts I suggest anything by MR. Crowley.
If your looking for philosophy reach for a good version of Dantes inferno
or the older translation of the Koran. You be suprised how many secret pockets
of esotric refrences hide in beautiful stories.
Well I am kinda just babbling at this point.... So name your intrest and Ill
scan the archives in my head!

20:14 / 02.04.02

Heh. I'd say just go read Liber Null and Psychonaut. That's as "hard core" as you'll likely need. If that's not enough for you, You might as well just go for Crowley. His Magick volumes are dense enough to keep anyone busy.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:24 / 02.04.02

I'd definitely go with Carroll. Or Phil Hine. Never had much time for Crowley, myself. Too damn self-conscious/smug.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:25 / 02.04.02

Sorry, Incoming Message. Just re-read cusm's post and though I should point out that Liber Null and Psychonaut ARE by Carroll. I thought that had already been mentioned. Sorry 'bout that.

23:58 / 02.04.02

Here's an idea..try re-reading some of that "new agey crap" with more of an open mind.

00:29 / 03.04.02

Some of that "new agey crap" as you so eloquently put it is actually pretty full of useful information. The LBRP, meditative exercises, visualization techniques, all of these and more can be found in "new agey crap". Sure, there may be a fluffy bunny on the cover, but some of the new age books can be just as good as anything by Crowley or Carroll. You've just got to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Read with an open mind and you may learn more than if you try to go straight for the "hardcore" books.

If you really want a hardcore book, read Simon's Necronomicon.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

00:44 / 03.04.02

Fine. You want hard core?

Outside the Circles of Time by Kenneth Grant. Then loan it to me when you are done.

^_^

07:01 / 03.04.02

Must confess to finding Crowley just totally inaccessible - always get the impression I need to read something else before I can start decoding his stuff. Can anyone recommend a good route into the man's canon?- sorry if this is re-treading old ground.
Has anyone ever tried to write a 'Crowley for dummies' type book, absurd as it sounds?

gozer the destructor

08:30 / 03.04.02

I started with a small biography of the guy and then went on to Magick in Theory and Practice, I think that's his most accessable because like he says in the intro Magick is for everybody-the great thing about the book is that no one gets it all first time, you just pick up the basic ideas (there is a reading list in the book) and then go back to stuff you didn't get the first time-there's exercises with Yoga as well as some quite advanced theories on ritual practice...

10:15 / 03.04.02

Yea...Crowleys collected 'Magick' is a pretty good place to start...Most of Austin Osman Spares work is a must in particular The Book of Plesure...Dave Lees' Chaotopia is proberly my favourite advanced Chaos Magick type book if you can find a copy...As people have already mentioned, Carrolls Liber Null and Psychonaut and parts of Liber Kaos are well worth it...

Kenneth Grants 'Typhonian Trilogies' are almost impenetrable, bizzare and well recommended...I havn't read 'Outside the Circles of Time' yet (although a friend found a copy for £5 or so in a second hand shop!!) but his writings on the Qliphoth in 'Nightside of Eden' and on Crowley, Spare, Bertiaux and Lovecraft in 'Cults of the Shadow' are good stuff (i'm saving 'Beyond the Mauve Zone' for when i've attained adepthood and transended to a higher plane so i can understand more than 20% of it)

Maybe some of Bandlers' NLP stuff like 'Frogs into Princes' or 'Structure of Magic'...Throw in Robert Anton Wilsons' ' Prometheus Rising' and 'Quantum Psychology...Ramsey Dukes' 'What i did on my Holidays' and 'S.S.O.T.B.M.E are great collections of essays and stuff on magick...

Van Lysebeths' 'Tantra' is a great book and the best i've seen on the subject (anyone got any other Tantra recomendations?)

At the moment i'm throwing myself into the Qabalah and Dion Fortunes' 'The Mystical Qabalah' is proberly the best book i've read about it (if you can ignore some of the nonsence about 'racial dharma' she babbles on about...silly old bat)

For hardcore with capital letters instead of little letters go for THE VOUDON GNOSTIC WORKBOOK by Michael Bertiaux...I looked through a copy in a pub a while back and it makes most other books on magick look like them fluffy books of spells with bright pink fur covers written by people with single word names like Titania or Twinkle or whatever...

Now get some candles, a bag of drugs and 14 Pot Noodles and a kettle and lock yourself in a small cupboard for a week and get through them all...You'll come out sweating your brains!!

12:15 / 03.04.02

Ray Sherwins' 'The Book of Results' and 'Theatre of Magick' also deserve a mention...particualy for the exercise that involves placing a defecating toad inside your mouth...yum...

I think you can get both online somewhere...

12:46 / 03.04.02

Can anyone recommend a good route into the man's canon? – Meme Buggerer

Have you looked at Magick Without Tears? It's a series of letters Crowley wrote to a student (or various students, can't quite remember which) during the later years of his life, explaining his Magickal system and theories. His writing style is toned down from his earlier works, and the epistolary format breaks up the information into sections that may be easier for some folks to take in.

New Falcon Publications puts it out, it's worth a browse in the bookstore to see if it makes more sense to you.

13:49 / 03.04.02

Another good route into Crowley is Lon Milo DuQuette's introductory book, "The Magick of Thelema". It covers Crowley's core thelemic rituals, with useful essays that explain the principles and key points behind each ritual, in very accessible language and style.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:46 / 03.04.02

Damn, I've got to finish writing that drugged-out grimoire one o' these days... pass the lemsip, someone.

15:02 / 03.04.02

I’ve certainly read all about Crowley – that and books like the Cosmic Trigger series have got me straining at the leash to find out more. Being pretty into meditation, martial arts and yoga, I’m keen to read more about a workable thaumaturgical ‘system’. Books by people like Hine, while fascinating, seem to contain more exhortations to just ‘y’know, try different stuff out’ than any concrete advice or step-by-step things you can try – anyway, I’d best not open a debate on chaoism vs traditionalism. It just seems that - of the people I know who seem to be getting something out of magick – most have studied & worked in a particular system extensively (while also working with other paradigms, it appears).
Maybe I’m still hopelessly in the dark about it all but I’ll give some of these recommendations a try- thanks for the advice guys (n gals).

15:40 / 03.04.02

The other side of CM, altering your personal reality and self programming techniques (magick to change the self rather than the world, or rather, changing the world through change of self), take a look at Chris Hiatt and Antero Ali sometime. They often work as a team. I can't stand a lot of Hiatt, but he sometimes hits the mark very well. "Undoing yourself with energized meditations" (Hiatt) is EXCELLENT, and "Angeltech, a modern shaman's guide to reality selection" (Ali) is the coursework Undoing Yourself is a primer for. Undoing Yourself is drawn from a lot of Israel Regardie's work, while Angeltech builds on Robert Anton Wilson and Timothy Leary's 8 circuit model. Interesting stuff, if you're into that side of things at all.

16:06 / 03.04.02

You want a hardcore magic text?

Try The Book of the SubGenius.

I'm serious.

(Note: there are some people who will tell you that this book is just a joke. Those people are wrong.)

17:07 / 03.04.02

The book of the Subgenius teaches you more by fucking with your head than by giving you the tools directly, but you can learn a lot from that one if you study what its doing. Books like that are more like having magick worked upon you that learning the science and art of magick itself, but still good stuff if you can get the message. Definitely a fun ride, that one.

Another along those lines (books that program you, not discordianism, I mean) is Be Here Now by Ramm Dass. That one is quite a ride, if you want to be an eastern acid guru.

17:18 / 03.04.02

Never heard of 'The Book of the SubGenius' before now but i've just looked at it on Amazon and it looks great...i've got a long train journey tommorow and thats definatly my reading sorted if i can find it...

22:51 / 03.04.02

Another great way of expanding your knowledge is to chat to/work with people who are more experienced than you. Most of my development has come from blagging my way into places and learning from existing experts. Book learning can be very dry and hard to put into practise by comparison.

07:14 / 04.04.02

Yea..Definatly agree with the value of working with people...You can get a bit caught up and lost in books and forget to actually do any work...i try to get involved with as many groups as possible and keep them as varied as possible...at the moment these are a Chaos Magick group and a Lovecraftian group along with a Hindi guru led group that worships Shri Hanuman...they all compliment and bouce off each other quite well (the mammoth 3-7 hr mantra chanting sessions with Hanuman in particular)...also been looking at the Society of the Inner Light as they work a lot with the qabala...expressionless: i seem to remember you working with the qabala...is the Inner Light group something youve looked at?...

Back to Hardcore magic books perhaps some of the classic grimoires such as the Lemegeton, Le Grimoire du Pape Honorius or the Grimorium Verum apply...They proberly fit the bill of what people think of a Grimoire or hardcore magick...I tend to enjoy these mainly as historical books more than working grimoires although i still want to do some more work on the Goetia (expecially after being stalked by one of them last time!!)

gozer the destructor

08:33 / 04.04.02

On a similiar point to that then, are there any groups in London who would be open for some discussion? PM me...I need something more than just books and sigils...