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fluid_state
15:55 / 13.09.01
First prize: Jerry F*cking Falwell. I tuned in in time to hear him say that it probably was just beginning, that there would be more, and that America did deserve some of that "punishment". hmmm. far from the party line, so I listened some more.

He blames the ACLU and the abortionists, claiming that "God will not be mocked" and that "God will kill 40,000 babies to show that". I had to type it here, rather than putting my foot throught the television. "the ACLU has a lot to answer for"... but not nearly as much as Jerry does when he reaches them pearly gates. Zealous psycho.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
16:44 / 13.09.01
What a cunt. Speaking from the fundament, as usual...
 
 
rizla mission
19:32 / 13.09.01
I heard some guy on Radio 4 yesterday trying to associate the bombings with anti-capitalist protests:
(paraphrasing)"Be it terrorist bombings or rioting in the streets, measures must be taken to stamp this sort of thing out for the sake of civilization!"

What a tosspot.

Also, Prince Charles' hopeful and reassuring words:
(almost direct quote)"Now we have to be careful with this sort of thing, I mean, I remember when Lord Mountbatten was blown up in a boat.."
 
 
Ganesh
19:36 / 13.09.01
At least he didn't couch it in terms of architectural criticism; I wouldn't have put it past him.

Then there's the taxi driver I met today, who waxed lyrical about how it all starts with asylum seekers: first they come over here and usurp all our benefits, get the tax-payer to fund flying courses then return to "wherever they came from" to bomb the shit out of us. Tosspot.
 
 
Fist Fun
08:21 / 14.09.01
http://www.nationalreview.com/coulter/coulter091301.shtml
 
 
Ganesh
08:25 / 14.09.01
Ack. After all the emphasis on religious tolerance, I love the 'convert them to Christianity' bit at the end.
 
 
Seth
11:10 / 14.09.01
quote: We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.

"...some freedom of speech makes me nervous..."
 
 
Chuckling Duck
19:48 / 14.09.01
Here's an excerpt from a piece from NRO about a speech by Tom Daschle. He made the speech more than a month before 9/11.

quote: Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, following up on a similar attack last week by House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt, is accusing the Bush administration of "abdicating" its position of world leadership by walking away from a series of international agreements on global warming, anti-ballistic missiles, small arms, and other issues. "The administration seems to have forgotten an essential fact of today's global age," Daschle said in a speech to the Woodrow Wilson International Center in Washington. "With the Cold War over, fear of a common enemy no longer keeps our allies by our side. Our allies will follow us only if we use our unparalleled strength and prosperity to advance common interests. Only then will our power inspire respect instead of resentment."

In his speech, Daschle repeatedly stressed American vulnerability — "a nation as susceptible to an explosives-laden skiff as it is to nuclear weapons...a nation that can be attacked by a single terrorist, or the rising tide of global warming...a computer virus, or a biological one." He also suggested that the AIDS virus is "no less threatening" than the possibility that terrorists might strike American targets with weapons of mass destruction. After concentrating on the small-bore dangers facing the United States, Daschle repeated his opposition to President Bush's missile defense proposals. "This administration's single-minded approach [to missile defense] jeopardizes larger U.S. political, economic, and security goals around the world," Daschle said. "If we choose to act unilaterally, it will make it harder to develop the necessary multilateral responses to arms control and a whole array of global issues."


So there are some relatively sane US politicians, if you look hard enough.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
19:52 / 14.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Rizla Year Zero:
I heard some guy on Radio 4 yesterday trying to associate the bombings with anti-capitalist protests:




This was actually my Mom's thought the night the whole thing happened: "You know who I think it was? I think it was those WTO protestors..."

 
 
Ganesh
09:40 / 15.09.01
I believe Naomi Klein was piloting the second jet.
 
 
Verbal Kint
12:54 / 15.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
...

Then there's the taxi driver I met today, who waxed lyrical about how it all starts with asylum seekers: first they come over here and usurp all our benefits, get the tax-payer to fund flying courses then return to "wherever they came from" to bomb the shit out of us. Tosspot.


And that is a pretty common view - scary.
 
 
Verbal Kint
13:02 / 15.09.01
me again. Hate doing the two postings in a row thing, but oh, well.

It is such a damn shame that so many people take the word of this man as somehow the word of God. Most deities, to my knowlege, don't have their heads up their asses. Jerry Falwell on the other hand, has such a massive case of rectal-cranial impaction that it is amazing he can walk upright.

He consistently preaches hate, intolerance (thought tolerance and love where what was intended by Jesus).

His comments over this were tasteless, innappropriate and mean. Hopefully some of his flock will be smart enought to be turned off by this and dump him as their "spiritual" leader.
 
 
fluid_state
20:23 / 15.09.01
Verbal, you'e earned your nick ten timesover with this phrase:

"a massive case of rectal-cranial impaction"

that is so going in the repertiore. I now return you to your regular thread.
 
 
Fist Fun
16:43 / 17.09.01
I bring you -
"a safe habor of conservative thoughts and ideals." http://thulsawest.blogspot.com/
 
 
FinderWolf
17:27 / 17.09.01
RE: Grant Morrison's reaction/essay

I think Grant is an intelligent man, and he makes some very valid points here about the fact that the U.S.'s hands are hardly clean. The US has done many things in its handling of Middle East situations and 'behind the scenes' black ops stuff that could certainly be categorized as wrong.

And I also agree that mindless, bloodthirsty, mob-mentality retaliation is not the way to go here.....not if we want a world left standing and remotely peaceful for our children.

BUT..... it is not so cut-and-dry that "The U.S. are the real bad guys here; no better than the ones they call 'enemies'." I don't think it's right or humane to say "It's shit on the US time!! Grant is basically saying "They got what they desereved" .... how is that different from the people who are rejoicing over this??!

The world is not so simple, there are grey areas, MANY grey areas, on both sides. One might say we tried to help Israel because they're a democracy, they were created by the UN (I think) in the 50s, because no one else would help them, and otherwise they would be annhilated by the Palestians. One might say we tried to help stop genocide in Kosovo for no selfish reason other than a desire to see some stability in that volatile region of the world.

One could say that we attacked Iraq because they invaded another country, and one could say are we supposed to do nothing as countries attack each other? (Witness the folly of the Great Appeaser in WW II: "OK; Hitler, you can have these countries, but don't take any more, OK?")

If we do nothing in response to what is surely an act of war on the US, what message are we sending? That this kind of mass destruction is OK? That we've learned our lesson and will now stay out of the Middle East entirely? That we recognize our wrongdoings and apologize for them? Let's be realistic; peace is not the answer here. I wish it were, though -- believe me. I just don't think there's any way to salvage this through just mediation and politics alone.

One could say we bombed Afghanistan because we had good evidence that we were bombing a training camp for terrorists, because we had to have some kind of response to the almost simultaneous bombing of our embassies around the globe. The idea that bin Laden or his camp were there must have been somewhat true, since reports say universally that "bin Laden got out 20 minutes before the bombs hit", which means he was there beforehand. Bin Laden has repeatedly spoken of his holy war on the US. But I'm not saying he's the only one involved here.....of course not.

I realize that to the average citizen, of Iraq, Afghanistan, or the United States, bombs and bombs, and destruction and deaths of loved ones are just that. But would you say "Well, many innocents were killed in WW I and WW II who were not Nazis or fascists, therefore those wars never should have taken place, the Allies shouldn't have formed or taken action because someone's going to get hurt?"

Someone is ALWAYS going to get hurt. Both sides are ALWAYS going to seem evil to each other.

Now, I'm aware that we supported bin Laden when the common enemy was Russia. I'm aware that we essentially put Saddam Hussein in power years ago, and that we gave the Taliban money to stop drug production/trade. I'm NOT saying those were all smart ideas. I'm not saying America doesn't have corruption and many bad calls, mistakes, and arrogance in its government. But you know what? Show me a country who doesn't have any of those things in its government. I'll be waiting. Grant, show me this list that the UK has never made any mistakes of this magnitude.

I simply hope and pray that cooler heads prevail, thinking strategy, tactics, and intelligence gathering good information and evidence of which groups did this, and whatever military response tries as much as humanly possible to minimize civilian casualties on BOTH sides. I don't think the US is out to destroy the lives of average people in ANY country who have nothing to do with the acts of their government, clearly unlike the terrorists who planned and executed Tuesday's bombing.

Are you aware that the US and the UN enacted what is called "soft sanctions" to prevent the starvation of the Iraqi people? They had a system where the sanctions were only for military items and not for food. (I'm not clear on the details of this, but I know I read about it many times in the past.) This was only to prevent the Iraqi government from stockpiling more weapons and creating biological weapons. Do you all remember the simple request of the UN Inspectors? Do you recall how that was flatly denied?

Let's not forget the Taliban is the gov't that needlessly destroyed Buddhist statues while the rest of the world sat back and did nothing. Let's not forget the Taliban implemented the system where members of other religions had to wear ribbons identifiying themselves as such -- Nazi Germany, anyone? Let's not forget Americans are under trial (last I heard) for preaching Christianity, and where conversion to Christianity is an offense punishable by death. Let's not forget all the terrorist attacks on us in the past years. Let's not forget how Iraq invaded Kuwait. Are we evil because we not only wanted to send a message that it's not OK to just invade any country whenever you feel like it, but that we also had an economic interest there and needed to protect it?

I realize all of the above has nothing to do with these attacks. What I am saying is the US may not be a boy scout, but I think our track record is at least a little better than many other countries. I don't think the US' record is "state-sponsored terrorism", as it's often spoken of in the Middle East.

Also take into account that the US has struggled with the question of "How much should we police the world? How much, to what extent, should be help or defend other countries?" The other day (before these attacks) I read about how Clinton was criticized for not stopping 4 other genocides that were taking place in Europe. We try to stop one and we hear "why didn't you stop these others?" "Why don't you solve world hunger?" "Why don't you defend us more over in Europe?"

When other countries go through natural disasters, we give LOTS of help, food, economic aid, and such. We helped rebuild countries that were our enemies in the major wars. But when floods, tornadoes, etc. hit us, do we get $3 million in aid from other countries?

I worry that if today's media existed back during WW II, CNN would be flooded with images of injured, dead and bleeding Nazis, as Hitler pointed out the slaughter of innocent Germans and such. I worry that people would begin to think "Well, are the Nazis so horrible that we need to annhiliate them?" "Many countries around the world violate human rights." "Our record isn't so hot either." "I don't want any innocents hurt." "What if we can't win?" "What if we don't win?" "Let's stay out of affairs that don't concern us, adopt isolationism and let whatever happens happens in Europe."

I notice that the responses to Grant's essay seem to be either totally "No, we have to go to war, this was evil and the US has never done anything so horrid" and "The US is just as horrible as any other country and all this is to bolster Bush's ratings."

I fall in the middle. There are grey areas, here, folks. But one could also say Germany followed Hitler because they were still resentful from being shafted by the League of Nations' treaty at the end of WW I, where their land got divided up among other (victorious) countries. One could say "The US was indirectly one of the many causes of WWII." One could find a reason against America for any action we've ever taken. Likewise, one could say "it's their fault, they did such and such first" about ANY country.

Let's recognize the world is not black and white.

And I seriously do not believe bolstering Bush's ratings is the goal of this whole thing. What a sick, horrible thing to even suggest this is "Wag The Dog." Would the current administration have preferred peace and the public making fun of Bush throughout the rest of his term? I certainly fucking well believe so.

Tony Wolf
 
 
Cherry Bomb
03:45 / 18.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Buk:
I bring you -
"a safe habor of conservative thoughts and ideals." http://thulsawest.blogspot.com/


hahahaha... I think I may be in love with you now.

Why is it that I now picture Carl Johnson as "Sam the Eagle" from the Muppets (who I once heard referred to on Iowa radio as 'the republican muppet'?)
 
 
fluid_state
04:45 / 18.09.01
CB- I read the "Flag Guidelines" in Sam Eagle's voice.... one can but hope Carl Jouhnson gets smacked in the head with a boomerang fish every now and then. Just for laffs.

"* The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose." at least mr. johnson's head is in the right place, even if he does seem to bein denial about what country he lives in. Kind of like Sam Eagle, actually....
 
  
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