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Underground > Creation >

Censorship, moderation, editing

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:18 / 11.02.02

I've been moderating the forum since its inception, and I've been 'hands off' all that time, and all that time not one of these projects has been finished. Why? Because they all fall into free-form lunacy...entertaining, but ultimately sterile.

I'm stunned by some of the stuff that gets done here - I just want it to fly higher and longer. Because I'm selfish and I want to read more of it.

As I see it, there are a couple of ways around the problem - the 'Handbook' thread, for example, imposes a shape of sorts, and allows people to go their own way; another way is to require that a post follows on from the ethos of the others, breaking away only where absolutely vital. Otherwise (and I'm as guilty as everyone else) we end up with a series of brilliant one-liners which get lost in the noise.

I'm more than happy to cut, paste, edit threads as requested by those involved - although, as I understand it, when the new board comes online, more of that will be possible for individuals anyway, and any moderator will have to be seconded by others before things vanish.

I also think we need to get a little braver about saying 'oops, this section doesn't work' in collaborative efforts. Pro writers working alone cut hundreds of pages; we're not telepathic, so we have to be able to discuss possible missteps. (MaChine, I bow in your direction. A more graceful concession in this respect there never was. I wonder whether that whole sequence could spawn its own thread?)

Madness is only one part of creation - discipline is the other...and alas, the inspiration/perspiration ratio probably hasn't gotten any better since the joke was first made.

I think the business of moderation in this forum will always be slightly different from in the others, because what we work on here is not factual, but synthetic or creative. So, as the new configuration approaches, I think we should probably get a few thoughts on the table.

Over to you.

12:26 / 11.02.02

how about some 'endings threads that take a half finished colloborative thread and attempt to bring it to a collaborative, satisfying conclusion'

12:28 / 11.02.02

Well I think if there's a sort of a collaborative fiction kind of a thing going on, and someone writes an entry which is in completely the wrong spirit or screws up the story or makes no sense, then moderative powers should be used to delete it..

In terms of these projects being 'finished' though, surely in order to be 'finished' they'd need a pre-determinded plotline & conclusion, otherwise they'll jusr ramble on until they run out of energy and die (not neces. a bad thing)?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:02 / 11.02.02

Snoop:

Yup, they were.

I'm still waiting for a reply from you to my private message(s), by the way. Or would you prefer to move our discussion into the open?

And whilst we're at it, 'subconscious writing' is fine, but you might consider keeping it out of topics which specifically request a degree of discipline in the mix. It's not necessarily an appropriate tool for the job...

More generally, when I say 'finished' I mean 'arriving at some form of (even dissatisfying) conclusion' - I think Sleaze's idea of an endings thread is great, actually. Although we should probably have a 'middles' thread, too...

I think it's fine for things to run on and dwindle, but I'm old-fashioned enough to want resolution, even tragedy or un-resolved resolution, some of the time. 'Free form' is easy, structured is hard, and the best writing is neither and bloody impossible...

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:27 / 11.02.02

'Not my place'?

I would suggest that part of my job is to try to make the Creation work. As I've said, totally unedited threads peter out and die. That's a great shame. So on this occasion, I've been proposing a different way of doing things - a more disciplined one. I'm not trying to impose my personal vision on the whole deal, I just want it to last and maybe even come to a conclusion.

And as I've said God knows how many times now, these are what you might call 'constituitive rules' - they aren't restrictive any more than the rules of football; they create the game, and without it, the game does not exist.

As to collaborative work being inherently disjointed, that's just untrue.

13:28 / 11.02.02

I have to say Knowledge, that while I don't think it's very likely that we're going to force you to leave, I would like to make it known that I am very bored of all of this and I really would LIKE it if you'd just leave and go and post elsewhere. You may think you're doing something useful here, but you're really not. You're acting like a ten-year-old at the grown-ups party, and for better or worse, it looks like I'm having to take the role of your daddy.

Please, find something ELSE to do with your time other than hang around here. You're not challenging anyone intellectually, you're not making anyone think, you're not contributing in any way at all, you're not even being usefully disruptive. There are loads of places on the internet which would be more fulfilling for you than here. Really! Try disinformation or one of the Usenet groups. You'd get more out of it and so would we.

At the end of the day, it's like me trying to fit in at a wine-tasting. I'd feel like an idiot and everyone else would think I looked like an idiot - whether I was or not. And in the end I'd want to leave and do something useful with my time.

13:52 / 11.02.02

I think an 'endings' thread is an excellent idea - or maybe we could start with the ending and resolve to work towards it in X posts?

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:01 / 11.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Snoop Knodgey Knodge:
It's interesting that instead of ignoring me, a suitable alternative for anyone who doesn't like my posts to censoring me and opening up that can of worms, you've publically told me I'm not welcome.

Actually, he has publicly told you that he doesn't enjoy your presence, finds you tedious and thinks you are making a fool of yourself and posting well below the general standard of Barbelith.

Different.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:28 / 11.02.02

Snoop, I don't have the option of ignoring you. This forum is not like the others, where an off-topic post is just noise; here, it has impact on the continuity, and unless everyone gets together and agrees to ignore it, it will change the fictional world in which we're functioning, and (in the case of the more radical additions) alter the rules and tone.

As to deleting the new post from 'Sentence', what the hell did you think I was going to do? It had the same problems as the last one (less the witty anal rape sequence).

I accept the need for freestyle writing, and I'm not about to complain if you start a freestyle thread. What I don't understand is why, when a thread is supposed to be 'inline', as it were, you insist on your right to come in and post something out of kilter. You're very defensive about your right to post in the way you feel expresses your self (and you may have noticed that you're also seriously annoying the one person on whom that permission is completely contingent) and yet incapable of respecting the self-expression of others. What's up with that?

14:54 / 11.02.02

Knowledge. I've looked into this. Nick was right. You were wrong. The thread was specifically marked as being one where Nick was going to try and keep it on track by editing it. Shouting about it somewhere else is just an empty post clogging up a useful thread.

If you have a problem with the moderation on the site you should start by respecting everyone else and go through the normal process - e-mail the person who's moderated you. Protest and explain your case. If they agree with you - all sorted. If they don't and you're not convinced by what they say, post to the Policy where everyone can have a chat abou tit and where the moderator concerned can get their ear chewed off by everyone else on the board if they think it's necessary.

I think you'll find in this case most people really don't give a damn. And the reason they don't give a damn is because they mostly think you're wasting everyone's time.

As Nick said, I don't have the option of ignoring you either. You send me e-mails every time you believe you've been censored and ASK me to intervene. I've supported you several times and I've disagreed with you several times.

All in all, however, I'm finding you very tiring and not particularly useful. If you want to feel like you're being persecuted, that's fine - tell the world what arseholes we are, but PLEASE go and do it somewhere else?! I've got too much else to do..

15:56 / 11.02.02

You know you might have a valid concern, but unfortunately you're so bloody irritating so much of the time that i am gradually learning to tune you out. Please stop whining and start contributing or doing something useful.

The Return Of Rothkoid

16:07 / 11.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Snoop Knodgey Knodge:
Okay. I've reread the sentence thread:

A) There are no rules posted for this thread, which is surely why I didn't obey said rules.Interesting. So you conveniently bypassed the thread title of "One Sentence At A Time", and the bit where Nick said quote:Just what it says. We're telling a story, we're doing it one sentence at a time., did you?

Contrary to your opinion, there is some kind of narrative structure to the story - at least, up until the TV show part. Whenever someone tried to throw it into unintelligibility, a poster almost always rescued it and continued along with a coherent (if not entirely realistic) narrative. I may have some kind of synaptic disturbance to be saying this, but I think it's entirely coherent. I'm with Nick and Tom; your additions didn't continue the narrative - instead, they fucked around with the work that other people had, up to this point, given to the thread. I don't think the deletions were, in this case, unwarranted.

Look, I've tried really hard not to flame you at all. But for all your cries against your supposed censorship, you seem to forget that your freedom of speech - as you call it - is effectively knobbling the ability of other people on the board to have the same thing. Just have a think about how you want people to view you before you post; there's a lot of foot-in-mouth going on, and you've garnered some seriously bad-feeling from it. I'm with Tom: I'm learning to tune you out rather than read your posts, which is a shame because when you want to, you can turn in something that originates above the waistline and actually has some redeeming features.

Sorry guys; I won't feed again...