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Women needed to participate in photo project...

 
  

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that
11:23 / 07.03.02
Deva: That would've been fantastic! Such a pity... thank you though.

Kit-Cat Club: Thank you! I'll PM you and Kooky with my phone number. Sorry to be hassley...

Tannhauser (or are we still allowed to call you Haus?): Not sure - it is a possibility, though one I had not considered. We are actually allowed to *submit* the project in the form of a website, and I have some of the necessary "skills" and, more accurately, facilities, required to do it. However, I am not sure how other participants would feel about having these images online. If participants are into the idea, I am happy to create a site. What does everyone think?

I am still not sure even how I feel about the ethics of presenting these to my fellow anth. students, let alone putting them up online. I realise the stated aim of this project was 'visibility', but I also feel that it should be a *safe space* for women to *be visible* in. I am interested in audience reaction, but I feel like each *audience* crystallises the final form of the photos, to some extent *makes* the photos, however fleetingly, and whatever the intentions of the participants (I consider myself a participant rather than anything else, though it is more complicated than that in practice). Like, the audience can interpret the photos to a titillatory end - and maybe some participants would be happy with that, maybe some wouldn't - but what I am getting at is that audience reaction is not dictated by participants. Thus, it feels a little bit dodgy even to be displaying them. I realise this is insoluble, and the presentation is not a platform for my ethical crisis (though portions of the essay will be) - each participant's participation or lack thereof in said presentation is completely up to them. I had not thought about doing an online gallery, but this *is* a collaborative effort, I hope, and if individual participants *want* their photos to form some part of such an endeavour, then that could be arranged...
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:34 / 07.03.02
Very good poitns. I think the distinction between visibility and secure visibility is a very important one. I think it would be politically quite interesting, but I can see that there would be issues.

Oh, and Haus is fine, or Tann for that matter, or indeed Tannhauser. But....my...name.....is....Maximus!

[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: Tannhauser ]
 
 
that
12:11 / 07.03.02
Ahhhhhh...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
21:22 / 07.03.02
as a participant, i am happy for the pics to be exhibited at the college, and for genuinely interested barbefolk to be invited along. online, unfortunately i would give a no vote. purely because this forum is so completely public. and i have had too many spats with registered barbefolk with dodgy opinions on women/lesbians to feel comfortable with such a thing. not just for myself - i'm really into what the project is about, and i don't want that to be abused.
 
 
that
08:27 / 20.03.02
Just to let everyone know, the presentation is this Saturday (23rd). I've PM'd details to anyone who showed an interest in coming and is geographically able to make it. I've heard from/already photographed lots of you, and I'm not contacting everyone else separately, because I hate pestering people - but if anyone else wants to send me photos before Saturday, I'd be most grateful... if not, if/whenever you're ready is more than great. Thanks again to everyone.
 
 
grant
13:42 / 20.03.02
wish I could be there...
 
 
that
13:48 / 20.03.02
How do other participants feel about genuinely interested Barbe-folk being invited along? Myself, I am quite happy to give the genuinely interested and well-behaved the details, but only if the other participants are cool with that... realise I'm cutting this a bit fine, but if any non-participants want to come, contact me, and I'll see if I can find out what other participants think, and let you know... Also, I should mention, I will have only about half of the photos by then...
 
 
bitchiekittie
16:16 / 20.03.02
Im going to send them tonight or tomorrow...hope they are of some use
 
 
betty woo
16:52 / 20.03.02
Ack! Haven't had time to arrange for a shoot yet, so I'll probably miss the deadline for your upcoming presentation. However, I will have something to you by early April at the latest, mkay?
 
 
Ierne
17:03 / 20.03.02
Wow – this Saturday? Glad I got the pix over to you today, then...

I am not physically present in my photos, except for the fact that I am the photographer. Still, I do agree with sfd that a website might be a bit more exposure than some participants are comfortable with. Trust your gut, Cholister.
 
 
that
18:38 / 20.03.02
bk: that is really, really great, thank you...
betty woo: don't worry, honestly no hurry. I did not even expect to have *any* photos in time for the presentation, and I will have, by tomorrow, 5 people's, so I'm really happy.
Ierne: thanks so much for the photos - they're fantastic! They'll probably put mine to shame though... hmmph.

I would never have put together a website unless people had been into the idea... and no non-participants have yet contacted me about wanting to come to the presentation on Saturday, but if they do, how do people feel about that, in a sort of general sense?

By the way, the way the photos will be presented is in the form of a single A4 booklet, with printouts of the pictures... handed round the audience. Hope this is cool with everyone? If not, please let me know... still not sure about a title - I was thinking of being really derivative and just calling it '"Shush!", or, alternatively: [honesty is the best policy]. Any suggestions?
 
 
that
10:58 / 25.03.02
Fucksake. Ok, I've been putting this off, because it is not a pretty story, and I will not tell it well. The presentation, as you know, was on Saturday, and I dragged poor sfd with me, and another non-Barbelith participant came along just in time to miss my bit. Which was no major loss. Unfortunately, I went first, and no one bothered to mention to me that I was allowed to ramble on for a lot longer than the film-makers...so I kept it short, sweet, and respectful, unlike pretty much every other photographer, who othered their participants left right and centre, and rambled on for decades. Basically, it was worse than I thought it'd be, and this is not going to make anyone feel any better than it makes me feel, but all my fears about the audience reaction were pretty much justified. Many anthropology students and their SO's and friends are such arses. A couple of the women behind me were laughing at the participants *in their own films* - that is pretty much the height of intellectual sophistication and ethical rectitude in that college. Chrissake, even the lecturer was made nervous by my topic. If it had been a bunch of photos of plasticky women in white tassled boots with bunches and goosepimples from the nipple-hardening cold, people would have been able to deal. But, as it was photos of a bunch of brave women in control of their own sexualities and sexual destinies...well, suffice it to say, that I am even surer than ever that honest female sexuality freaks people out. I am sooooooo pissed off at the narrow-mindedness and arseholittude of these fucking people. Most people were kind of nonplussed. Giggling though - there was giggling in the room, from women, of all fucking people. Jesus shagging Christ. I don't know whether to to comforted or terrified by the fact that these people did not seem to understand anthropology or ethical fieldwork in general any more than they understood my project. The fact that many anth. students are still stuck in Malinowski-era anthropology with a pop soundtrack is really utterly sickening.

Ok...rant over... basically, I feel like I did not present my project nearly as well as I could have, partially because I did not realise that I was allowed to talk at length, and partially because I was nervous. I passed the photos round on laminated A4 sheets. I feel like it *was* wrong of me to present this project in that environment, although I have to admit I did think the audience would be less fucking narrow-minded about it... I also thought the audience would be smaller, I have to admit.

Basically, I'd just like to say sorry to everyone, and to say again that I really really really appreciate your participation. I am really sorry... I feel like I have let you all down, and that I never should've presented in the first place. Sorry, everyone, and thank you... if anyone wants me to extract their photos before I hand in my project to be assessed, I completely understand. But that is the bad bit over with, really... really sorry, again...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:18 / 25.03.02
well as a participant my thoughts are rather different. granted, the immaturity of some of the students - in relation to their own work, never mind anyone else's - was quite breathtaking and incredibly disrespectful, but basically not *your* problem, chol. you introduced the subject intelligently and respectfully. people *were* interested, but some of the responses highlighted how important the subject matter was. the only thing you could've done better was talk about the project for longer - cos you knew what you were doing and why you were doing it and if people could've got over their embarrassment then i'm sure there would've been more questions. a fair few of the students there had no real idea about anthropology or their focus drifted so far i felt i could've presented their own work better than they did.

use the responses in the essay, get something positive from the experience. i certainly don't feel let down - if anyone was laughing at *my* photograph, then that really doesn't bother me, as it says rather more about them than me. i hate having my photograph taken, but i enjoyed taking part in the project. you have some immature classmates, is all.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:26 / 25.03.02
Aww, Cholister, that sounds fucking horrible! I'm really sorry you had such an undermining experience.

Let's get one thing straight: You are not the one in the wrong here. The gigglers are the ones who should be apologizing. You presented them with something that challenged their views and they couldn't handle it. (They sound like a bunch of bloody idiots anyway.)

I'm even more pleased now to have be a small part of this- you've obviously created something pretty powerful and worthwhile if it generates such a blatant anxiety reaction.

PS: You'll remove my piccy over my dead body!
 
 
Ierne
11:45 / 25.03.02
Sorry, everyone, and thank you... if anyone wants me to extract their photos before I hand in my project to be assessed, I completely understand. – Cholister

Definitely keep mine in!

And och, what a trial – all your hard work scrutinized by gigglebunnies. "oh! dildoes! tee hee!"

Public speaking can be nerve-wracking – I'm sure you came across far better than you felt at the time.

I'll try to get that paragraph over to you before Flyboy arrives in NYC.
 
 
Persephone
11:47 / 25.03.02
quote:Originally posted by shortfatdyke:
use the responses in the essay, get something positive from the experience.


Good advice. As a monologuist ...well this is perhaps *a little* pathological, but I've come to the point where I delight a little bit in things going off-kilter now, because that's what makes the stories. When things go perfectly right... there's nothing to examine, nothing to tell.
 
 
that
11:50 / 25.03.02
Ah...thank you, sfd and MC. I really appreciate the support, and totally appreciate your participation.


I guess I over-reacted a bit - just I know that I had serious misgivings from the word go as regards the presentation, and I felt I had compromised my position with regard to you all, although we were all happy to be in the presentation, I guess I knew better than anyone else what the climate in the room was likely to be, and I do feel responsible. I am still gobsmacked at the narrow-mindedness of *anthropology students*, for crying out loud...but I guess I was just naive. Thanks, you've made me feel an awful lot better, both of you...and I'm really glad you're both happy with your pictures, and for your pictures to remain in the project (MC, I'll snailmail you your copies in the next day or so). I really do appreciate it - I just wish I could have done a better job presenting it, done you all more justice. But again, this project was not and is not about me, and my ethical crisis, so I don't want to make it into a big ol' drama. Thanks again, everyone. You're all brilliant - and be sure to let me know if I can ever help any of you out.
 
 
that
12:01 / 25.03.02
Persephone: just feel a bit guilty that I was *interested* in audience reaction, and wanted to write about it in the first place... I felt like it was extremely dodgy to present, for that reason alone...and felt even worse about it when my fears/expectations were proven to have some basis in reality...like my reasons for presenting were not as pure as they ought to have been, and like I've let people down. There *is* a lot to write about, but I knew there would be, and this presentation should not have been a way to dissect the power of the audience - I wanted this to be about safe visibility, and, to a certain extent, challenge people's inhibitions about this sort of thing - not that it was by any means just about what I wanted, but this was the kind of idea that started me off, and I don't think that it succeeded in that respect, the audience was in some sense, too hostile. I tried to be honest about this all the way through, and not use my interest as a platform for my ethical crisis, to instead let other people decide for themselves whether they wanted to be involved in the presentation...but when it comes down to it, the presentation itself was my responsibility, and I tried hard, but I don't think I did well enough, and I don't think my fellow students did well enough, and it just feels really wrong to get to write about how it was received, especially when I had my suspicions in that respect to start with... I don't know if that makes any sense at all...
 
 
Persephone
12:36 / 25.03.02
That does make a lot of sense, actually, and is even more interesting as you've written it above. An academic paper is different than a monologue, obviously; but I think there are interesting parallels between your desire to create a "safe space" for your photosubjects and your feeling of responsibility (this is how I'm reading it) for maintaining a "safe space" for your audience--e.g., they did not consent to be observed and analyzed in their response to your photos & though you're angry, you're still keeping your head enough to respect that. Which is highly admirable. All in all, I get a strong sense that you know where you are going.
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:34 / 25.03.02
wish I could be as dead on and reassuring as everyone else, but Ill do my best....

first of all, you shouldnt feel bad - because you werent fully informed about freedom you had in regards to the presentation, you really cant be blamed for keeping it respectfully short. also, sorry to be presumptuous and speak for all the participants, but I think its fair to say that we are all adults, and well familiar with the juvenile response most people manage when meeting with the subject of anything even remotely sexual. put more blatantly they are left clueless and even alarmed.

which was one reason I personally participated: its time people stopped being ashamed of their bodies, their sexuality, and stopped trying to repress everyone else. women, in particular, are supposed to stifle their sexuality and keep it as something precious and hidden. I didnt have any illusions about this one thing changing the world or its perceptions of sexuality, but I think agreeing to participate sort of threw me out there and made me challenge my own fears, if just for that little bit

I think that their reaction, and your subsequent anxiety, says a lot about society, and how shit it is able of making us feel about ourselves. you seem to be very capable, and I personally have faith that youll meet your goal
 
 
that
14:42 / 25.03.02
Awww... thank you, bitchiekittie. And thanks, Persephone.

You've all been ever so sweet, and just great, basically - firstly to participate, and secondly to put up with my ethical crises all over the place. I really do appreciate your input, everyone - and I think you were all really brave to participate. It won't be forgotten. Hugs to everyone...and thank you.
 
 
that
11:13 / 26.03.02
And thanks to you too, Ierne - I was in a bit of a state yesterday, didn't actually see your post til just now!
 
 
that
16:08 / 16.07.02
I thought I'd drag this one up from the depths to let you know: I got my degree results in last week. All's good in general, and the photo project mark was very decent - and I so totally have all those who participated to thank for that. I wish I could adequately express just how grateful I am to you all - thank you! You are all exceptionally cool, and brave, and generally great, to want to get involved in something like this in the first place, and huge thanks to all for helping me get a decent degree, too.
 
 
Ierne
16:54 / 16.07.02
The joys of serendipity...last night I was sorting out my negatives and came across the ones for your project, and I wondered how it all ended up for you.

By "decent" (!!!) I take it to mean that you passed the course. Bravo!
 
 
Shortfatdyke
06:23 / 17.07.02
"All's good in general"

now there's an understatement.

congratulations on getting your degree, cholister. and thanks for letting me take part in the project.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:55 / 17.07.02
Well done, Chol!
 
 
that
08:32 / 17.07.02
Awww... thanks, all!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:22 / 17.07.02
well done, hon.
 
  

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