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Questions

 
 
01
04:00 / 13.09.01
Ask away no matter how foolish you might think they sound. Let's get every last thing gnawing at our brains out into the open. I have plenty.

a. Why, every couple of hours or so do we see new footage of the planes crashing into the towers? It reminds me of film trailers for a huge movie event. Longer, more dramatic and more frequent trailers closer to opening night.

b. How the fuck did people with knives take over these planes? I understand that there is a four digit code that a pilot or co-pilot can punch into the console that is the signal that they are being hi-jacked. Why did nobody receive such a signal?

c. How the fuck did they manage to get into the airspace within the proximity of all of the government buildings in Washington never mind actually manage to crash a fucking plane into the Pentagon? You'd think that there would be a million failsafes before it could get so far. Thirty plus years of cold war would make a person think as much.

d. Is Osama Bin Laden a real person? No really? I've questioned his existence since I first heard of him. Is he some conveniant boogey man that is trotted out every time the current president needs an immediate scapegoat? The first time I heard of him was when Clinton bombed him to divert attention about Lewinsky and the impeachment.
I personally think that the Iraquis are to blame for this. I think this operation has been in the works for ten years plus.

e. Is everyone as sick as I am with this whole thing?

[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: zerone ]
 
 
jUne, a sunshiny month
04:38 / 13.09.01
i only got a brief response to your E question : fuck yeah.
 
 
fluid_state
05:02 / 13.09.01
How many planes in total got hijacked/lost/shot down on 9/11? I was following the "four", and two more besides... there's posts on slashdot claiming 2 more on top of that. ???
 
 
sleazenation
07:12 / 13.09.01
Comentators such as michael moore have pointed out how easy it has been to smuggle contraband (including knives) into domestic flights, but a determined terrorist would not even need that-- just a sharp piece of plastic- or even a sharp pencil, and the will to use it
 
 
Ganesh
07:13 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by solid_state:
How many planes in total got hijacked/lost/shot down on 9/11? I was following the "four", and two more besides... there's posts on slashdot claiming 2 more on top of that. ???


Sky News claimed (from a 'good reliable source') that there were eight 'planes highjacked, with four (possibly five) shot down. That number hasn't been confirmed anywhere else.
 
 
Taliesyn
07:17 / 13.09.01
f. If there is a war will it be world wide?

g. If it is a world war then how does one decide which side they are on?
-coming from a multicultural world I cant see how my country would decide.We have too many mixed countries in the world(not that thats a bad thing)

h. What did "they" do it for???

i. Did "they" have a valid reason in their own eyes???
 
 
Ganesh
07:20 / 13.09.01
Everyone has a valid reason, in their own eyes, for doing what they do. Check out CNN Online for some background and speculation on bin Laden and some of the possible reasons he might harbour a 'grudge'.

As for your other questions, I guess only Bush can tell us...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:21 / 13.09.01
h: see here.

[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: The Flyboy ]
 
 
Ganesh
07:24 / 13.09.01
We ought to combine those two links, really. They should be read in tandem.
 
 
rizla mission
08:33 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:

Sky News claimed (from a 'good reliable source') that there were eight 'planes highjacked, with four (possibly five) shot down. That number hasn't been confirmed anywhere else.




Why hasn't this been mentioned anywhere?

Can anyone find any info. on the supposedly shot down planes?
 
 
Ganesh
08:36 / 13.09.01
It's in the larger 'Plane Flies Into World Trade Centre' threads. And no, I don't think there's been any confirmatory stuff. It's looking more and more like an unfounded rumour.
 
 
fluid_state
10:53 / 13.09.01
or more likely, quashed news. It's very important to tightly control certain aspects of this, and almost seems easy in light of all the mass confusion and rumormongering. it's not like every television outlet isn't being fed what to say....
 
 
CameronStewart
11:16 / 13.09.01
There was a point on Tuesday when I am absolutely sure that a fifth plane was reported as being "intercepted" by Air Force fighter jets and was now "no longer a threat," which to me sounds like a euphemism for "shot down."

Mid-day Tuesday this was being reported as fact, and now there's not a word of it anywhere. So strange is the turnaround in official facts that it almost feels like I imagined it. I'm betting on enforced news blackouts....
 
 
deja_vroom
11:22 / 13.09.01
Silence:

h) I think it was vengeance, pure and simple. No one really expects that amerikka will change its genocidal politics because of that, in fact, the terrorist attack will make amerikka even crueller. Someone with means and hatred just got sick of this fight where only one side is allowed to punch and decided to show how it hurts to be the sitting duck.

i)based on my first guess, I think that the people on the plane, if they were really arab terrorists were just willing to sacrifice their lives to avenge the deaths of their relatives and friends.
Think of it like that: You watched you daughter being torn apart by UN helicopters and the rest of the world just didn't happen to notice, then someone comes to you and say: "I'll give you the means to get your revenge on them. You'll die, but I assure you, they will understand what it feels like to be impotent".
 
 
mondo a-go-go
18:53 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:
There was a point on Tuesday when I am absolutely sure that a fifth plane was reported as being "intercepted" by Air Force fighter jets and was now "no longer a threat," which to me sounds like a euphemism for "shot down."

Mid-day Tuesday this was being reported as fact, and now there's not a word of it anywhere. So strange is the turnaround in official facts that it almost feels like I imagined it. I'm betting on enforced news blackouts....


nope, i remember that too. i'm betting the same thing.

and why do we have so many bloody threads about similar things? would it hurt people to read through before they post a new one? this was doing my head in before. trying to keep track of stuff
now is even harder.
 
 
Logos
19:23 / 13.09.01
Re: Five or more planes

Please check out this thread

The higher number of planes rumored to be hijacked early in the day included up to eight of the fifty domestic and twenty-two international flights still in the air after the grounding order took effect. The eight planes in question were out of contact with the ground, or were off-course for a period of time. As the planes landed and/or checked in, they were gradually removed from the "possibles" list, as reported on all of the major news outlets throughout the day.
 
 
grant
19:38 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by zerone:
a. Why, every couple of hours or so do we see new footage of the planes crashing into the towers? It reminds me of film trailers for a huge movie event. Longer, more dramatic and more frequent trailers closer to opening night.


More footage as it comes; not every camera is gonna be close to a satellite truck, and some footage will need more editing than others. It'll get more dramatic because the editors will be working on it, and because you'll be registering, hey, this is real....

quote:
b. How the fuck did people with knives take over these planes? I understand that there is a four digit code that a pilot or co-pilot can punch into the console that is the signal that they are being hi-jacked. Why did nobody receive such a signal?


They did. Actually a few people got cell phone calls as well.

Nobody thought of combining the Hijacking and the Suicide Bombing into, you know, weapons of mass destruction.

quote:
c. How the fuck did they manage to get into the airspace within the proximity of all of the government buildings in Washington never mind actually manage to crash a fucking plane into the Pentagon? You'd think that there would be a million failsafes before it could get so far. Thirty plus years of cold war would make a person think as much.


The Pentagon is not that far from two major international airports. From what I remember of the building, also, it's not like it has a standing air force or anything; it's the corporate headquarters.

quote:
d. Is Osama Bin Laden a real person? No really? I've questioned his existence since I first heard of him. Is he some conveniant boogey man that is trotted out every time the current president needs an immediate scapegoat? The first time I heard of him was when Clinton bombed him to divert attention about Lewinsky and the impeachment.
I personally think that the Iraquis are to blame for this. I think this operation has been in the works for ten years plus.


Seems likely he's real, he's involved, but he's far from the only one, and it might not have even been his idea. That's seat-of-pants-theorizing (SOPT) for you.... He's more of a sponsor and base commander, from what I understand.

quote:
e. Is everyone as sick as I am with this whole thing?


The whole thing is sick.
[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: zerone ][/QB][/QUOTE]
 
 
grant
19:39 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by kooky has go-go power:


nope, i remember that too. i'm betting the same thing.

and why do we have so many bloody threads about similar things? would it hurt people to read through before they post a new one? this was doing my head in before. trying to keep track of stuff
now is even harder.


Yeah, we need a moderator to crosslink and lock threads.
 
 
betty woo
19:40 / 13.09.01
Answers?

A - more footage is coming in the form of amateur video. There are tons of tourists in Manhatten every day, many armed with video cameras, not to mention local news stations whose footage was picked up nation-wide.

B - as I understand, most hijackings involve negotiations, not suicide runs. Pilots & staff are trained to co-operate in order to secure the safety of their passengers - so you wouldn't need to be much of a threat (one kid at knifepoint would do it) in order to take over the plane. I'm wondering if that policy & training will change now.

F - possibly, but not for traditional reasons. The war in this case isn't particularly against a nation at present; it's against an organization, a network that crosses traditional geopolitical borders. We had a thread several months ago about a move to rescind the U.S. law prohibiting the government from using assassination. My old political science prof has been predicting a return to assassination as a key political and national security tool for the states, especially for dealing with these kinds of threats.

Part of the challenge policy makers are facing right now is trying to figure out how to find a war that doesn't have a specific geographic locale. Potential scenario: the U.S. asks Nato countries to open their borders to counter-terrorist activity by special forces units. Any country that doesn't agree is labeled as working with or harbouring terrorists, and thus a potential target for overt military aggression.

This is how my brain works, and this is why I can't sleep anymore.

J. how can you claim to be analyzing the situation in a fair and open-minded manner when you insist on refering to the United States as "amerikka"?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
19:44 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by zerone:


a. Why, every couple of hours or so do we see new footage of the planes crashing into the towers? It reminds me of film trailers for a huge movie event. Longer, more dramatic and more frequent trailers closer to opening night.


They keep showing more footage because they keep getting more footage. As soon as all this started to go down, freelance photographers and videoographers got their cameras and in some cases actually bought cameras off tourists to shoot footage. They get it to the networks, or the authorities, and it eventually gets shown. Thaty's why.

quote:
b. How the fuck did people with knives take over these planes?


One reason is because airport security on domestic flights in the U.S. has been notoriously lax. One commentator noted that security employees could make more money working McDonalds than doing airport security. Also that industry has about a 200% turnover rate.

Another is because small knives were allowed to be brought on planes. This was really to accomodate things like Swiss Army Knives and such. Apparently each airport has a different regulation on this - I think most accepted knives of approx. 3 inches.

The terrorists used box-cutters as knives - very small and very likely to make it through airport security.

Plus, there is the theory that the terrorists flew from smaller airports to get into the larger airports. This makes sense. If any of you have been in a small U.S. airport, you will be able to imagine how easy it would be to get past their security. Once you've passed security at one domestic airport, you generally don't go through at again (if you have a connector, say).

quote:I understand that there is a four digit code that a pilot or co-pilot can punch into the console that is the signal that they are being hi-jacked. Why did nobody receive such a signal?

You are correct. However, if there were more than one hijacker on each plane (and it appears that there was), it could be done. Heard a theory from a pilot friend of ours last night.

His theory is that there was terrorist in the back of the plane, one in the middle and one in first class. The one in the back causes a distraction - maybe start making threats or something like that.

The stewardess goes to the cockpit to report the disturbance. The pilot sends one of the copilots to check it out. This is when the 2nd and third terrorists step in, one killing either the pilot or the stewardesses, the other one taking over flying the plane.

The pilot doesn't have time to punch the code, because he doesn't know they're being hijacked quickly enough.

quote:c. How the fuck did they manage to get into the airspace within the proximity of all of the government buildings in Washington never mind actually manage to crash a fucking plane into the Pentagon? You'd think that there would be a million failsafes before it could get so far. Thirty plus years of cold war would make a person think as much.

Good question. I don't know. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that it's not common practice for the U.S. governement to shoot down civillian planes. At first it would have looked like a terrible accident. And of course, they were distracted by the WTC.

quote:e. Is everyone as sick as I am with this whole thing?



Yes, and no at the same time...

[ 13-09-2001: Message edited by: Cherry Bomb ]
 
 
grant
19:45 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Silence:
f. If there is a war will it be world wide?


NATO has already signed on, and it's pretty clearly not a border conflict with Canada or Mexico, so yeah. Will it be a World War in the sense of two blocs of allied forces fighting each other?
I doubt it.
If anything, it's going to be a whole new style of war. Non-centralized. Non-nationalized.

quote:
g. If it is a world war then how does one decide which side they are on?
-coming from a multicultural world I cant see how my country would decide.We have too many mixed countries in the world(not that thats a bad thing)


Self-declared ideologies, I suppose.

quote:
h. What did "they" do it for???


"I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return." -- WH Auden, "September 1, 1939"

quote:
i. Did "they" have a valid reason in their own eyes???


They certainly wouldn't have killed themselves for an invalid reason, now, would they?
 
 
Ganesh
19:51 / 13.09.01
B - Also, didn't all the hijack teams have mock bombs? Even if the threat of being knifed wouldn't deter you from 'having a go', the possibility of blowing everything up (if you're unaware that this is gonna happen anyway) would probably give you pause for consideration.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
19:52 / 13.09.01
quote:Originally posted by grantb:


Yeah, we need a moderator to crosslink and lock threads.


i'll do it tomorrow if it's needed. tom?

i mean, i do have vague plans, but i can do a coupla hours worth of reading and switching.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
20:02 / 13.09.01
oh yeah, one thing i was wondering, when you say "box-cutters", do you mean stanley knives? (course, everyone's gonna wanna know what a stanley knife is now). i only ask because years ago in the uk they were used as weapons quite a lot before people started getting hold of more "sophisticated" weapons like machetes and fancy knives. i don't know how they're treated by uk airport security these days, but i think they're still considered a threatening weapon. someone clarify this for me.
 
 
deja_vroom
11:31 / 14.09.01
quote:By Betty:
J. how can you claim to be analyzing the situation in a fair and open-minded manner when you insist on refering to the United States as "amerikka"?


*massive thread-rot*

Before I proceed I would like to remind everybody here that this thread is dealing with political analysis and questioning (if I'm right). If you are american, perhaps this is not the time to be here, because you certainly don't need to read now some of the things that will be posted. No one needs to be confronted right now with cold analysis and the brutal facts that are just not fit to broadcast.
But it would be good for you to read them someday, because they at least may let you be warned about how different people from different countries feel about the american way.

Now, Betty, the reason why I'm using this term is because I'm bitter. Bitter about this whole situation and the way the media is again manipulating millions of hurt people into a homicidal mob via irresponsible war propaganda, the type likely to happen in a fascist state, as disguised as it may be as "beacon of freedom". I'm not the only one who shivers and laments when I hear a phrase like "america is the police of the world". The implications of such an estatement - which americans take proudly - are to say the least, terrifying.

Here in South America we know of people who had their mouths tied around car's exhaust pipes and dragged around until they died, then had their fingers and heads chopped off to avoid identification and then thrown in the sea, this sort of stuff, you know?
And then 20 years pass, the once secret documents are now open to the public and we learn about how all these monstrous acts were backed up by CIA, with drug money, guns and torturing classes. Half a continent silently dying to feed the other half. Sorry if I sound bitter. I am. And bear in mind I'm not justifying myself. If it is wrong, I don't care, just like it would be wrong to bring retaliation upon a country of starving desperate people, but the majority of americans won't be caring when the media have finished its arab demonization process.

The use of the term "amerikkka", though implying my somewhat radical feelings towards amerikkka's "What We Say Goes" politics, does not invalidate my capacity of being fair and balanced when analysing this whole situation.

You can see that in several posts where I say what hurts me the most is that like always, is the common innocent people who suffer, and that the terrorist action musthave been an act of thoughtless revenge, not some sorte of plot to bring down to its knees the "police of the world", because no one would think that such a monstrosity could bring some good the the world. And I would never use such term in a thread dedicated, say, to comforting messages to americans.

I imagine this place as sort of a round table, where we are free to expose our different, sometimes opposing point-of-views, and I'm glad that you took your time to call my attention to my choice of words. I will stop using it, but I wanted to make sure to you and to everybody else that I was not mindlessly knee-jerking.

I live where the end of the whip cracks, guys. Bear that in mind before judging my estatements.

[ 14-09-2001: Message edited by: Jade Emperor ]
 
 
Cherry Bomb
13:25 / 14.09.01
Stanley Knives vs. Box Cutters... this may be hard to describe sans pictures.

Box cutters are like these relatively small razor blade type thingies that are encased in a plastic handle. Their purpose is just what the name implies - you use them to split the adhesive that seals a cardboard box.

Hope I did a good description there.
 
 
Not Here Still
15:52 / 14.09.01
Why is no-one talking about the Pentagon?

The numbers out of the Pentagon are baffling, as if Military Censorship has already been imposed on the media. It is ominous. The only news on TV comes from weeping victims and ignorant speculators.

Hunter S Thompson in a very good piece on the attacks on New York AND Washington.

I am not so big an idiot as to believe that the US Govt is going to be telling us everything about what happened at its military command HQ - but I've heard virtually nothing about the Pentagon on television or radio here. What is it like in the US?

(Apologies if the question has been asked - I am trying to read as many of these threads as possible.)
 
 
jUne, a sunshiny month
20:39 / 14.09.01
i don't wanna be rude.
911 was something that will never find valid reasons, never, ever, to be done.
i could never tell enough how bad i'm since ; i'm more concerned that i wish to be. it's way too hard to handle.

now, the only, only positive point i see in this tragic event is that i really, truly hope that the US people will take a deep breath and try to find how and why they came here, now, in this mess ; and if they're correct with themselves and others, they 'll be ok to admit that for decades, they used of their economic, politic, military power far too much.
i'm sick of seing poor people battling and killing each other for any nearly senselessquestions. if there was petrol under their feet, US came and solve the problem. for their own interest, not the people' one.
now, if there 's no interest, people will kill themselves, and again,and again.
now, inject whatever you want instead of "petrol". Israel/jewish old time moral/historic relation ship, Europe having to ask for "help" while eastern europe ethnical breakdown (read : financial/political interests), and US will move...
well, i really think that the United States of America were too arrogant, too egoist, using too much (and not that much at the good times) of their so-called power, and for sure one day someone have to remind them that we're plenty on this planet.
now, the fact that it's had to be some fuckin extremists is the worse thing we cannot imagine a single second.
i hope minds will change over atlantic.
but i doubt.

i spend sometimes in the states.
this country got many very intelligent people, i'm sure of it ; now they got to reconsider their place on this planet. cause they' got missions, for sure.
now, they have to put energy and power into the real good ones.
hell, we're in 2001. time to reconsider.
and to never live these kind of things.
it's another time crimes we saw here.
never again, no more, never.
 
 
grant
15:39 / 17.09.01
Stanley Knife:


Box Cutter:
 
 
reidcourchie
10:20 / 18.09.01
I'm trying to read all of the coverage in Barbelith on this, I'm playing catch up as I was on holiday at the time this happened, so I apologise if I repeat stuff from other threads here.

As far as how they could hit the Pentagon. As far as I am aware there is no fly zone over the sensitive areas of Washington. However it is not big enough to scramble fighters in time to stop something like this happening.

The Secret Service do have rooftop teams with access to shoulder launched surface to air missiles however I don't believe they are sufficently powerful enough to stop an airliner.

I have heard it suggested in other threads that there are eye witness reports of the Pittsburgh plane being shot down. Is there any more information on this?
 
 
reidcourchie
17:01 / 18.09.01
Sorry ignore my question I've found the thread.
 
  
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