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Feedback - a help or a hindrance?

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:53 / 21.08.01
Started because I really want to respond to something Nick said and don't want to derail the Fanfic thread (which was until recently threatening to expand and consume all of Barbelith, and could probably spawn half a dozen of these offshoots, as Tom suggested).

quote:Originally posted by Nick:
I have to tell you that I don't allow my friends to make suggestions; they don't even see the work until it's finished, unless they promise to refrain from that kind of thing.


This both fascinates and baffles me at the same time. Obviously everyone who writes has their own methods, their own way of doing things, their own personal preferences (I'm assuming for the moment we're all on the same page here when I talking about 'writing' - not necessarily as a career, but as something Necessary and Important to one's life, which one wants others to read/watch/etc). I wouldn't begrudge anyone the right to be as private with their work as they wish, just as I wouldn't begrudge anyone who chose to seek a large number of different opinions at every stage in the creation of a work.

And obviously, if you're going to show work-in-progress, or even finished work to friends, or anyone else, with the proviso that you "allow" them to offer feedback (although quite how one is supposed to stop them responding in some form is slightly beyond me) - if you do this, then you have to be aware when listening to their feedback of how their own preconceptions, taste, idiosyncratic ideas and so on are going to affect their response.

However. I personally find it really difficult to imagine adopting the position of never showing stuff I've written to friends, or to people whose ideas and opinions I respect. Here are the main reasons why:

Writing is a constantly evolving process (I'd call it a "journey" if that didn't sound decidedly lame), and it does not evolve in a vacuum. There are always influences at work – from your own life experiences, to other works you read, or art you see, or music you hear, to political or theoretical or literary ideas you may encounter in one form or another. I was under the impression that the idea that all great writing springs unbidden from some deep-rooted spark of poetic genius and originality had been debunked some time ago.

And other people's reactions to and ideas about what you write can be a really important part of this learning process. If you think you've hidden your William Gibson obsession really well and every single person who reads your short story tells you it reminds them of Neuromancer, you might want to think again. If you think you've written a light-hearted romp but on the basis of what they've read so far your friends all want to kill themselves, ditto.

As I understand it, when we write things, it is almost always with the (possible unconscious) intention that they should be read. This isn't the only reason I write, and I think if you're trying to second guess your audience every time you put pen to paper, the results will probably be frustrating and stunted. However, writing without the impression that there is something you want to communicate to someone else – even if you're not exactly sure what that thing is – has its own pitfalls: it tends to result in wank.

(Slight tangent: I've never been able to understand the animosity towards critics as a species that some writers (and filmmakers, musicians etc) seem to have. A critic is just a reader who gets paid to tell other potential readers what they thought of the work. The same goes with a literary theorist, more or less. Sure, a lot of critics are lazy, ignorant and malicious – but no greater proportion than that of writers themselves…

Of course, some feedback may be discouraging, or even unhelpful… I can't help feeling though that the possibility of negative feedback (by which I mean either constructive or otherwise) is far preferable in a purely pragmatic sense than no feedback at all. And I can think of at least a couple of occasions when suggestions and observations made by friends I've shown stuff to has been incredibly helpful for my writing, such as it is - vital even.

But I've gone on far too long with this post (it's taken about a week), and I'm still not being as clear as I want to (and probably more confrontational than I want to, as well...). I'm just going to put this out now and hope it sparks some discussion and thoughts, yes?
 
 
grant
17:31 / 21.08.01
I'll just say I hate showing things in progress to friends; I hate singing in front of people who know me in a non-musical context, and I hate letting non-filmy people see movies I've worked on. Makes me feel all self-conscious and incomplete.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:22 / 21.08.01
Don't get me wrong. Feedback is vital. There's a tone, a time and a place, though, and there are some people who just shouldn't offer it, however right they may be. That's not about writing and creativity so much as it is about interpersonal relationships. Just as you wouldn't necessarily want to live with everyone you know (actually, almost everyone I know would chew glass rather than live with me) so not everyone can give you feedback without making you want to drill holes in their front teeth.

As to debunking wellsprings and muses and poetic inspirations... It's a metaphor. But so is everything else. And this is about bunk, remember?

Some writers (and other creative types) have a problem with critics because they feel there's malice at work. My aunt (actress) was involved in a fairly heavyweight case against a critic who her performance unfavourably (fair comment) and then proceeded to attack her personally (libel). The Brit Lit establishment is also not always straighforward in its dealings - there's a club, and if you're not in, you can be very out.

Lit crit in the academic sense I have rather more involved problems with, and far greater respect for even when I don't agree, and I touch on that in the zine article.

For the rest - I never give honest feedback unless I am repeatedly enjoined to do so. And I mean repeatedly. And I never ask for it unless I'm sure the idea is strong enough and I'm ready to take the hardest knocks I can think of.
 
 
Jack Fear
09:41 / 22.08.01
The goal in art--one goal, anyway--is self-expression: to create something that makes you, the creator, happy.

Knowing that you're creating for an audience can dilute the purity of your intent. You may find yourself second-guessing your own impulses, trying (even subconciously) to create something pitched to the taste of your imagined audience, rather than to your own. The person giving feedback takes on a sort of de facto co-creator status.

And art created by this sort of committee process tends (though not inevitably) to the lowest common denominator. At worst, it can lead you to dumb your work down and overexplain... or add the sex that's not integral to the work but will nonetheless serve as a selling point... tack on a happy ending on the say-so of the focus group.

I find feedback only useful for work that is complete or nearly so: when given at that point it is less an influence than an assessment. It does not play into the question What is this work setting out to do?--if the work is near completion the arrtist should already know the answer to that question--but rather {i] Does it succeed?[/i]

So feedback vital, but only late in the process: bring it in too early and it can be a distraction, and at worst derail the idea completely.

Unless we're talking about brainstorm, or collaboration, or bouncing ideas of one another, wherein the co-creator status of the person giving the feedback is more or less explicit.
 
 
Jack Fear
09:53 / 22.08.01
Also: I mistrust workshops, having one too many times workshopped multiple drafts of the same piece, incorporate all the suggested changes, and then heard somebody say, "I liked the original version better".

Another point, and something that occurred to me from the other end of the experience when I was corresponding with Carla Speed McNeil and acting as a "seeing eye" (her term) for Finder: Other Creative People are probably the WORST folks from whom to solicit feedback. I really had to stay out of my own way, and out of Speed's, too, as she groped her way through the story to find its present shape—to suppress my writerly instincts—to read as a reader, not as a writer. When I read as a writer, I’m not necessarily looking at the work for what it is, and how it effects me—I’m thinking about how I would have written it.

Orson Scott Card on "the Wise Reader," his version of the seeing eye:
quote:A Wise Reader is not someone to tell you what to do next—it’s someone to tell you what you have just done... You want him to keep a record of symptoms—what the story does to him. For this job, it’s better if your Wise Reader is not trained in literature—he’ll be less likely to try to give you diagnoses ("The characterization was thin") or, heaven help us, prescriptions ("You need to cut out all this description").

The Wise Reader doesn’t imagine for a moment that he can tell you how to fix your story. All he can tell you is what it feels like to read it... [The Wise Reader] can’t possibly be wrong... Why? Because the Wise Reader is reporting on his or her own experience of reading. How can she be wrong about her own experience?
So feedback, by all means--but when, and who, and how are vitally important.

[ 22-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:53 / 22.08.01
Lowest common denominator elements weren't added by Ezra Pound or Vivien Eliot's suggestions regarding The Waste Land - and these led to significant changes at various stages in the poem's genesis, yet are not considered collaborations per se.

(Note: the answer "but Ezra Pound was Ezra Pound not your illiterate cronies" is no use here.)

I take your points Jack (in fact I make some of them in my original post), but what I'd argue for ideally is a balance - a balance between a writer/artist's "own" (note scare quotes) vision and an awareness of how and by whom they want that vision to be received. If art is a question of what you the artist want to say, that still implies someone you have to say it to. Nick's original statement seemed to me to swing to one extreme: it tolerates no input before the author has already put the seal on the finished, final, no-changes-to-be-made-at-all version.

Personally, I'm just not that self-assured as of yet to do the above. Maybe I will one day. But there seem to be more than enough canonical precedents (whatever that's worth), to suggest that seeking input whilst something is still in progress is a perfectly valid mode of endevour.
 
 
Jack Fear
09:53 / 22.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:
Lowest common denominator elements weren't added by Ezra Pound or Vivien Eliot's suggestions regarding The Waste Land - and these led to significant changes at various stages in the poem's genesis, yet are not considered collaborations per se.
In fact nothing was "added" by Pound or Viv: quite the opposite, in fact. The original draft of The Waste Land was about twice as long as the final version. the end result wasn't watered-down, but rather reduced, concentrated, made denser, made more ferociously and thickly itself.

I'd never suggest that it's purely down to Pound being a genius: more to Eliot's knowing how to take feedback (and that's the other part of the equation, ennit), knowing what to keep and what to throw away... more on that later.

But first quote:I take your points Jack (in fact I make some of them in my original post)...Yeah, well... I do love to hear myself talk. quote:...but what I'd argue for ideally is a balance - a balance between a writer/artist's "own" (note scare quotes) vision and an awareness of how and by whom they want that vision to be received.Ideally, yeah. Of course. But I think the "balance" is going to be in different degrees for every artist, and evry artist needs to find hir own way of achieving that balance, hir own way of soliciting and using feedback. And for myself, I lean more in Nick's general direction with regards towards saving feedback until the story is finished or nearly so...

...because, for my purposes, it acts as a crap filter. Putting a half-finished doodle on public display gives me an excuse to not finish the damn thing, and gives me an out: "This could be really good, if you do it right..."

No. Here's a finished work. Is it good now? Not at some future point, but now?

And if it's not, I can throw it away and try something else. We can't afford to be precious about our work: not everything is gonna be for the ages. The most important thing is the process, doing the work, seeing it through to completion instead of focus-testing. Just beat the thing into submission and get it down.

It's not necessary to believe in yourself, as you imply above: you just have to believe in your ideas. They're bigger than you, and if they're any good they'll outlive you anyway.

Now go to bed, fa chrissakes.
 
 
SecretlyClarkKent
09:53 / 22.08.01
I don't know that I have much, by way of differentiating opinion, to add to the above, but to put in my own experiences.

On his on-line journal, Neil Gaiman made a quote that essentially narrows down what Scott Card stated, and I'm paraphrasing, although not much: "If the reader tells you there's something wrong with it, they're right. If they tell you what's wrong with it, then they're wrong." That's pretty much the philosophy I go by, as it stands.

My sister is pretty much the only person I let read anything, especially before it's finished. She's very good about telling me whether or not she liked it, and why, but never actually telling me what should've happened, or what should happen next. Here, lately, to ensure that I'm not slacking off, I've been writing a short story every night, pretty much stream-of-conscious writing without much planning before hand. And I send each and every one to her, for her to read the next day while she's at work. It's been amazing, for me, because I'm exploring far more ideas than I had previously been doing. Although I know I'm going to send them to her, only once have I tailored it specifically to her taste. Give me a break, it was her birthday.

I don't think it's a matter of whether or not you should allow anyone to read your work, at any point in the process, but of who you choose. Don't pass it around to all your friends and ask them to make notes that you later integrate into the story. This is how Hollywood works.

I do think, in the end, every writer writes to have it read. This goes for every kind of writer... even people who keep a journal. You write it for people to read. Some day, along the line, you have every intention of handing it off to someone and letting them see it. If not, then why the hell are you doing it? I mean, I'm not saying that I, or anyone else, writes with an audience in mind... rarely do I. But I do write with the knowledge that someone's going to see it. I write because I'm a writer. I create art, because I'm an artist. I'm sure you guys understand that more than others. But, in the end, it's meant to be seen. It's just a matter of not letting that knowledge corrupt what you're creating.

Later,
Jared
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:53 / 22.08.01
quote:Nick's original statement seemed to me to swing to one extreme: it tolerates no input before the author has already put the seal on the finished, final, no-changes-to-be-made-at-all version.

Not quite - there are degrees of 'finished'. Forgive me for being unclear: in this context I mean something is finished when I've got it all down from start to finish, maybe edited somewhat. The rough thing, whatever it is, is expressed. If someone says something brilliant, I can always use that, then re-seal it afterwards.

And for the record, the 'but Pound was Pound and a genius' response did not and would not cross my mind.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:53 / 22.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Forgive me for being unclear: in this context I mean something is finished when I've got it all down from start to finish, maybe edited somewhat. The rough thing, whatever it is, is expressed. If someone says something brilliant, I can always use that, then re-seal it afterwards.


Ah.

That qualification seems to invalidate most of my objection to the original statement... I think I read a certain attitude to critical feedback into the term "that kind of thing", which may not have been there.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:53 / 22.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:
(Slight tangent: I've never been able to understand the animosity towards critics as a species that some writers (and filmmakers, musicians etc) seem to have. A critic is just a reader who gets paid to tell other potential readers what they thought of the work. The same goes with a literary theorist, more or less. Sure, a lot of critics are lazy, ignorant and malicious – but no greater proportion than that of writers themselves…

As you suggest, I think it's the laziness aspect that pisses off people. In my experience of print reviewing, most reviews (though not my own, which were all wonderfully well-considered distillations of thoughts, based on a thorough understanding of the work, natch) are written on-the-fly, with bumph at hand, without the reviewer especially having much attachment to the work, or experience with it. Case in point: how many album reviews do you know where it's pretty obvious by the levels of obfuscation in the copy that the reviewer's listened to one or two tracks, chucked the album in a "sounds like band x" basket and banged out the review on autopilot?

I also think that the average reader and those who are paid for it can, in some cases (though not in all, obviously) differ by dint of what's relaxation for one is work for another. And while yes, it's work that's enviable in a lot of ways, it can be as stressful and undesirable as most other jobs - hence, laziness, or overly-snappy pointscoring, or whatever.

Criticism is being paid money (if you're lucky) to either write in line with the organ that publishes you, or to assert your own prejudices towards reading. It's a rather privileged position inasmuch as if you say "that sucked", people will take your word for it, and avoid that book/movie/CD/whatever. It can kill movies (can you tell I'm reading Easy Riders and Raging Bulls?) and make form-product incredibly popular at the expense of something that could be groundbreaking if it had a chance to be heard. I think it's that power that annoys; isn't critical hate more prevalent in the film world than anywhere else, though? I'm thinking that's because of the huge effort that's made to get something out, which can be dismissed by Leonard Maltin in five seconds.

There's probably equal laziness in both camps, as you say - but I think it's the fact that modern popular criticism tends towards the fire-and-forget school that irks. You can bang out a review in a moment - and it can cripple something that took months or years to create without much effort. I can see how getting a critical savaging could make someone pissy; if it happened repeatedly from the same people, then it becomes personal, I guess. Maybe it's mostly personal animosity?

Also; I'm like grant - I don't like showing a work in progress. I'm hard-headed about feedback, but I also don't like the exposed feeling of showing something until I have an idea of how it should be. I'll revise later, but until I've got the whole thing worked into a string-and-wire form, I'm reluctant to share.

[ 22-08-2001: Message edited by: Rothkoid ]
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:30 / 22.08.01
Bit of a shirt in topic but what the hell...

quote:Originally posted by Rothkoid:

In my experience of print reviewing, most reviews ...are written... without the reviewer especially having much attachment to the work, or experience with it.


But surely reviewer's aren't supposed to have "an attachment to the work" - not immediately at any rate? Have you ever read reviews of albums at, for example, the band in question's fan website? Utterly cringe-inducing, 90% of the time. I think that's often what pisses off artists and fans (mysekf included) when they read a negative review: the critic/reviewer is detached from the work. Guess what? They're supposed to be.

quote:Case in point: how many album reviews do you know where it's pretty obvious by the levels of obfuscation in the copy that the reviewer's listened to one or two tracks, chucked the album in a "sounds like band x" basket and banged out the review on autopilot?

Let's take an alternative way for someone to find out about new music: listening posts in record stores. How many tracks do you reckon your average punter is going to listen to before s/he makes the decision whether or not to buy? Not trying to defend lazy reviewing here, although to be honest I don't think any music critic is paid enough to justify the horror of listening to, for example, the entirity of the new Limp Bizkit album before they pass judgment on it...

quote:Originally posted by Rothkoid:
It can kill movies... and make form-product incredibly popular at the expense of something that could be groundbreaking if it had a chance to be heard. I think it's that power that annoys; isn't critical hate more prevalent in the film world than anywhere else, though? I'm thinking that's because of the huge effort that's made to get something out, which can be dismissed by Leonard Maltin in five seconds.


Don't know about you, but it strikes me that on the contrary, most film critics are engaged in a losing battle against studio hype, big budget advertising campaigns, and toadying publicity puff-pieces masquerading as journalism. It's the critics who are pleading with the public to go see Amores Perros instead of Pearl Harbour most of the time, surely? And good on them. And if they want to take pot-shots at Ben Affleck in the process - even better (I'm personally of the opinion that libel laws should cease to apply once the person in question reaches a certain level of fame, wealth and success...).

Not that I like critics. Christ, what am I saying? "All the critics you can hang 'em I'll hold the rope"... Just playing DA, really.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:46 / 22.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:
But surely reviewer's aren't supposed to have "an attachment to the work" - not immediately at any rate?
OK, my wording was lax. They're meant to have a reaction that goes beyond what comes in the mail on two sheets of paper with the CD. A reaction that's based on a decent listen/read/watching of the work, as opposed to a skate over it. Which seems to not really be in effect, a lot of the time. Obviously, criticism takes into account personal bugbears - but this should be tempered with the detachment to see the endeavour through to the end. Otherwise, it becomes a bit like dismissing books on the basis of the blurb on the back. Wilson? Paranoid hippie wank. Dostoyevsky? Russkie slummer. Hornby? Mid-life navelgazing. That's easy journalism, but it's not fair to the authors or the would-be readers, is it?

quote:although to be honest I don't think any music critic is paid enough to justify the horror of listening to, for example, the entirity of the new Limp Bizkit album before they pass judgment on it...Ah, but that's what critics are meant to do. It's what they're paid to do. Give a reasonable account. Any reviewer that hadn't listened to the complete length of any Sigur Ros or White Stripes or Einstürzende Neubauten or Wu-Tang Clan release would be considered to be useless if they dared to do the same thing, surely? Be fair; if they're meant to experience the product and give a thoughtful critical response - which is different from the 2-minute listening-post flickthrough - then they owe it to the reader to experience the whole thing, not just some truncation. People use critics as yardsticks, and what good is a yardstick who can't be arsed?

quote:Don't know about you, but it strikes me that on the contrary, most film critics are engaged in a losing battle against studio hype, big budget advertising campaigns, and toadying publicity puff-pieces masquerading as journalism.
In which case, how do you draw the distinction between which critic is being run with a footpump by Sony, and which isn't? Couldn't it be that ones suggesting "foreign" films are being primed by FilmFour, or whoever's investing in the screening of those flicks, to do so? It's kinda rare that anything foreign that gets an arthouse release gets reviews that are bad, isn't it - whereas blockbusters will usually get a pizzling. If they're meant to be detached, how come most film reviewers tend to come down on the side of the arthouse, and deny that occasionally, mindless fun can be good? It seems that the detachment you're looking for isn't in effect there.

The market for film has changed - or, rather, studios are making the sort of abysmal films that thrive on bullshit; I was merely suggesting that in terms of moviemakers who aren't necessarily treading that path (Soderbergh, for example, who on the director's commentary to The Limey refers continually to "that motherfucker from Premiere magazine" (I think)), criticisms are taken more personally than on a multi-director, final-cut-by-the-studio-anyway wankfest, which may not have the same investment of personal vision.

I find it interesting, too, that it's suggested that once someone reaches a particular level, it's permissible for it to be critical open-season; sounds like tall-poppy syndrome rather than the detached criticism that's advocated, too. I've no especial love for Ben Affleck, but surely the point of criticism is to applaud good performances; even if they happen to occur in big, mainstream, inflated movies?

I guess that what's emerged in the past couple of years is the "big studio is shit, little indie is good!" idea - to the extent that you get people hanging onto the coattails of indie while having full studio backing, in order for the beneficial press it brings. Hollywood does churn out a massive amount of shit; but it seems critics are predisposed to bomb it - perhaps unnecessarily - while other pieces are given an easy pass because of their niche-marketing angle. If criticism is meant to be about detachment and impartiality, I've not seen it lately. I just think that rather than give the punter the ability to make an informed choice, the critic seems to use their position to either take pot-shots or to score cool-points. Which has been going on for years, true, and is enjoyable to read, yes, but isn't exactly that helpful, unless you believe that you and the critic are of identical mindset. Which isn't always the case, I'd imagine.

[ 22-08-2001: Message edited by: Rothkoid ]
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:51 / 22.08.01
Another flash: could it be that since Dorothy Parker, pretty much, criticism - especially of movies or the stage - has been marked by valuing good copy over trenchant critical analysis? ie: do people want the lowdown on the show, or cocked snoot dirty-laundry?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:09 / 22.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Rothkoid:
Hornby? Mid-life navelgazing.


I defy anyone to claim that putting this on the back, no wait, the *front* of all Nick Hornby novels wouldn't make the world (or at least the UK) a finer place indeed...

But seriously: point taken about the predictability of critical opinion (how often reviews take the line you'd expect from the publication they appear in always depresses me). And I'd be the last person to deny the potential fun of a big dumb Hollywood blockbuster.

But I think we're talking about different things when we say "detachment" (possibly I'm using the wrong word). What I mean is that a critic has no investment in the work they're writing about - they have no obligation to treat the artist with reverential kid gloves, to respect the artistic spirit of the piece, etc. I don't mean that they should be objective or anything silly like that - objective journalism doesn't exist, especially when it comes to reviews, and thank god for that, because they'd be boring at best, utterly redundant at worst.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:10 / 22.08.01
quote:I think that's often what pisses off artists and fans (mysekf included) when they read a negative review: the critic/reviewer is detached from the work. Guess what? They're supposed to be.Isn't that the weirdest bit? How on earth can you review an experience in which you choose not to participate?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:16 / 22.08.01
quote: they have no obligation to treat the artist with reverential kid gloves, to respect the artistic spirit of the pieceNo, indeed. But with this, they should also have some kind of sense of duty to at least give the whole thing a go, y'know? I know that there's things that are just not worth doing it for, but ideally, shouldn't reviewers have some kind of responsibility to the audience to have endured (be it joyfully or kicking-the-seat-in-front-stylee) the whole shebang before making a call?

I guess it's this: they shouldn't have an investment, but they should have a responsibility - it's just something that seems to fall by the wayside a bit.

(This being said, I'm in the process of trying to securing another reviewing gig; critical rigour ahoy?)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:25 / 22.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
How on earth can you review an experience in which you choose not to participate?


Eh?

Assuming I was joking about the Limp Bizkit thing, and thus I do think reviewers/critics should read/listen to/watch the whole thing, then... what are on about, Nick? Are you seriously arguing that, say, reading the novel isn't a good way to evaluate it, because you didn't write it and so you don't really understand?

Or do you think I meant that a critic/reviewer shouldn't allow themselves to get caught up in the work: be moved to tears, or incensed, or inspired by it? That wasn't what I meant, and my words may have been poorly chosen. I simply mean that ideally, the critic has no stake in the fortunes of the work or author/artist - s/he isn't employed by their publicity company, isn't a friend of the author/artist, isn't an obsessive member of their fanclub.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
01:55 / 23.08.01
On topic, now.

I think I'm actually going to agree with Nick, for once. Of course it all depends on your definition of 'finished', doesn't it? As a reader of other people's unfinished work (who is reading half the ms of a close friend at the moment), I would far prefer to read something that's been 'finished', that is all there, spellchecked and read over for missing words and grammar and syntax and all the stuff one generally forgets in the rush to get it all down.

But as an editor, I wish to fucking HELL that less 'writers' (and we're talking young writers here, who are a category unto themselves, in development and all that) would submit stuff to Voiceworks that obviously hasn't ever been read by anyone, and which is crying out for some friendly guidance or the perspective of someone not completely involved in their narrative. Lately I have been in the position of offering that 'friendly guidance': it's part of my job. And lots of younger writers don't have friends to help them; building a community of writing friends (those who ae good at giving advice or editing or feedback) takes time. So yes, maybe they can be forgiven for sending me material whch is direly unready for publication.

But as a writer, now. Getting feedback is about taking risks. It's a huge risk to allow someone into your private universe. And the fact that you need feedback in the first place obviously shows that you're serious enough about the piece of writing to care how it reads, to others. Personally, I don't think I'd be a very good writer without having taken that risk at the very start. Maybe once you're experienced and confident, you can keep your manuscripts in hiding until you absolutely know that they're developed enough for others to read. But I know I wasn't for a very long time, and have only recently gotten to the stage where I feel enough pride in what I'm doing to keep it inside until I *know* it's absolutely readable. Yes, it makes me feel queasy to give people things to read, depending on who and what it is. (Non-fiction is so much easier than fiction. I'm a much more confident writer of non-fiction. So.) But I think it's necessary.

There are also ways of reading which can be bette or worse for people, though. Reading takes sensitivity. As does editing. I feel like I've been learning heaps about this over the past year. A couple of writers have simply hated how I edited their work, and gotten really angry or uptight or told me how 'fragile' their piece of fiction was, and that I messed with it in a very 'clumsy' way. A few random people have also told me that I'm the best editor they've ever worked with, that I have managed not only to edit well for voice and syntax and precision, but that I've engaged with the ideas in a really constructive way, which helped. And before I get too much more self-congratulatory, I just want to say that I disagree with the reader not being able to pinpoint exactly what is 'wrong' with a piece. Sometimes you can; it's a matter of how you express it.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:52 / 23.08.01
Flyboy - yeah, misunderstanding. Thought you meant that they shouldn't get caught up in it.

Alas, in newspaper reviews at least, the critic frequently does have either a positive or negative stake in the writer's success. It's a thing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:52 / 23.08.01
Don't worry, that'll all change after the Revolution when we've burnt the networking nepotistic circle-jerking sycophants at the stake...
 
  
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