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Le Tigre, Part III

 
 
Shortfatdyke
05:28 / 26.03.02
we're talking the politics of the band. i don't think this has been covered before, if it has, forgive me and i'll shut up.

i'm talking about the fact that they play the michigan women's music festival. a festival that's transphobic to the point of a few years back, harassing butch dykes to 'prove their gender'. now i heard le tigre last week, and i loved what i heard, but i can't go rushing out to buy their stuff if they are actively supporting transphobia. i also heard - and i don't know if this is true - that one of the band members is actually a transwoman. which seems to me to be pretty treacherous and hypocritical.

now, i recently did a benefit gig for feminist group justice for women. just before it went ahead, i found that jfw were transphobic. i did the gig cos the organisation does massively important work and i got a trans inclusive door policy. le tigre are staunch feminists, something that attracts me greatly. so what do i do? how far do i go here? do i buy the cds and communicate with the band about michigan? am i a hypocrite for even wondering about this because i did the gig?


[thread title altered for clarity by Flux = Moderator]

[ 26-03-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Stuttering Bureaucrat ]
 
 
bio k9
06:05 / 26.03.02
Could this go in one of the other le tigre threads (one of which was all about their politics, iirc)?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
08:25 / 26.03.02
Uh, before I get into this (and believe me, I WANT to get into this), can you tell me which Le Tigre album you were listening? Just out of curiousity?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
08:29 / 26.03.02
i don't know what i heard. i was in a pub at the time. if this thread can be linked to one of the others on le tigre, then that would be great - i read a lot of stuff about them and feminism, but nothing, as far as i can recall, about the michigan thing.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
10:11 / 26.03.02
Shit, sfd, do you KNOW how many discussions there have been about Le Tigre on this board? I'm sure someone will link shortly - I actually looked but apparently not hard enough.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:19 / 26.03.02
There are two links in the thread that I closed. Which was partly why I closed it.

I dunno, every time I get on with a bit of visible moderation...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:23 / 26.03.02
Ah, but sfd's right bout one thing - the Michigan thing was only touched on very briefly in both the big argumentative Le Tigre threads. I know I remember writing about it more extensively elsewhere, but I believe that was in the 'unethical art' thread (which I seem to remember then accidentally disappeared as threads kept doing back then - arse). I think this is the more interesting/relevant way to look at this issue, if only because trans-exclusion in general has been discussed to a greater extent here. In other words, while I'd agree that Le Tigre's decision to play the festival is at best questionable, and that perhaps more importantly, their apparent unwillingless to discuss the issue is definitely lamentable and fucked-up, I think the question is: what do we ask of the people who make the music that we enjoy listening to? My own answer to which will follow when I've had tea and sandwiches and so can put my thoughts into coherent sentences.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
10:35 / 26.03.02
"what do we ask of the people who make the music that we enjoy listening to?"

well, i ask quite a lot. i love rem's music but a big part of why i am so into the band is the whole package - the way they attribute all their songwriting to the whole band (when buck and stipe write pretty much everything), the record covers, the early videos ('dedicated to the spirit of independant filmmaking'), stipe's environmental work, the whole queer and art angle to the band.... all stuff i really relate to. i loved the first skrewdriver ep but - as some might remember - couldn't handle possessing the thing because of their later politics and dumped it.

as someone once said, every decision is a moral stand. everything is political - if a band i like come out with something horrendous 'morally', then i will challenge them about it and/or not buy their records any more. tribe 8 play michigan because they think transwomen have a place in queer, rather than women's space. i like and have been to see the band, and am into their feminism and visible lesbianism, but don't agree on this issue, but they are open to discussion about it. quite a big part of what attracts me to any 'art' is the attitude/politics of the creator(s) of it.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
10:56 / 26.03.02
See, the problem I think people have with Le Tigre, which I think Rosa kind of alluded to in "Le Tigre II" is that because they are very popular band that presents itself as feminist they're put in a tough position of their (Le Tigre)'s politics not always living up to the politics of their listeners.

But this is sort of the "murky waters of feminism," isn't it? There are a myriad of definitions as to what constitutes a good feminist, so Le Tigre's certainly in a tougher position than the average band in this regard.

(edited to add that this conversation is now completely distracting me from my day, by the way...)

[ 26-03-2002: Message edited by: Cherry Bomb ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:04 / 26.03.02
BUT surely le tigre's participation in an event [michigan] that discriminates against [certain] women also undermines their feminist credentials?

i find their position - the fact that they won't talk about it - puzzling and untenable. would love to go see this band but i just can't.

[ 26-03-2002: Message edited by: shortfatdyke ]
 
 
Cherry Bomb
11:09 / 26.03.02
Good point, sfd. Off to go have a think on this one.

Though, OK, but haven't they still done a lot for feminism in spite of MWMF?

More later, surely.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:25 / 26.03.02
Hm. SFD, I think one thing to consider about Le Tigre's performance at that festival is that they did not organize it themselves, and they did not have complete control over what happens. I've never read any comment from Le Tigre about this event, but I think it may be reasonable to question whether or not they agreed with that aspect of the festival. I don't think that simply being on the bill makes them complicit - they might not even have been aware of that policy when they signed their contract to play. I mean, yr not going to hold Sheryl Crow to blame for the Limp Bizkit-incited raping and pillaging at that Woodstock Festival, are you?

Yr hardline stance on the morality of the musicians you like seems very unfair to me - I completely understand the desire to have people whom you like and respect to have consistent values, but it is very unreasonable to suggest that they should never once slip up and make a mistake, or do something that you do not agree with. Now, let's go with "Le Tigre performed at the festival and strongly agreed with the policy"... now who's to say that they have not since come around to yr point of view? Or that all of the members of the group feel/felt this way?

I'm suggesting that you should ease up, just a little bit - if you like 90% of what Le Tigre is, don't let that pesky 10% ruin it for you. They are only human. You are only human.

[ 26-03-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Stuttering Bureaucrat ]
 
 
gozer the destructor
11:28 / 26.03.02
I recently bought what i think is there first album and really enjoyed it but like sfd i would have issues if they are acting in a manner thats so counter-productive to what i would hope all of us believe in, the right to be yourself-also, as someone relatively new to the boards some info on the band would be great

cheers
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:42 / 26.03.02
Le Tigre's first LP is selftitled and contains "Deceptacon" and "Hot Topic", which are both big indie hits. Their second release is an EP called From The Desk of Mr. Lady, and it contains the lead track "Get Off The Internet". Their new release is called Feminist Sweepstakes, and it features songs like "Tres Bien" "LT Tour Theme" and "Well Well Well". They also recently released a remix EP on vinyl.

Before Le Tigre, their frontwoman, Kathleen Hanna was in the punk band Bikini Kill, who were quite good. Between BK and LT, Kathleen did a solo record under the name Julie Ruin, and that record is really good. It bridges the gap between those two bands very nicely.

Le Tigre's website.

a Bikini Kill website.

another Bikini Kill website

a Le Tigre fansite.

,

[ 26-03-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Stuttering Bureaucrat ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:43 / 26.03.02
flux - please, please don't tell me to lighten up! i am happy/proud of the way i am on this!

don't know how much you know of the michigan festival, but the anti trans policy is quite revolting. it has lead to transwomen being physically thrown off the site, and butch dykes being told to prove that they are bio women. the organiser is reported to have made some appalling comments about transwomen and the policy is well known, in fact it's a big part of the festival (womyn-born-womyn) so if you take part, then that more than implies agreement.

i do accept bands as being human. i'm quite prepared to accept that jello biafra, for example, may have done a few dodgy things as far as dk royalties go, i have recently posted a thread about rem's peter buck acting in a pretty dangerous manner on a flight. of course they're human, they, like me, make mistakes. i wouldn't feel comfortable buying a le tigre record right now and the only way i'd go to a gig is if i thought i'd be able to discuss michigan with the band. these things are incredibly important to me and i wouldn't want to be any other way.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:53 / 26.03.02
Er - I can't actually see where Flux told anyone to "lighten up". Suggesting you "ease up" *on* a band means something quite different. But anyway...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:56 / 26.03.02
Well, I won't argue about it any furthur with you, SFD. For the record, I am completely with you on this - I think that the anti-trans policy is horrible and works against everything that these women say that they are working for. I'm against any type of systematic exclusion of people based on gender, race, religion, or sexuality. I'm just not about to ban a group for having what may only be a tangental relationship to the problem - it's a bit to puritanical for me. I'd prefer to not be so extreme in my own reactions...

Have you considered writing a letter to Le Tigre? I know that they make a strong effort to read and respond to all of their mail.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
12:11 / 26.03.02
i haven't written to le tigre, but i know plenty who have tried to communicate with them on this and apparently they simply do not respond. it is this that puts me off them - as i said before, tribe 8's willingness to discuss the issue makes me feel a little differently about them, although it must be said that i saw tribe 8 before i knew about michigan's policy. i would have to go see le tigre knowing this stuff in advance, it makes it harder, i think. i would also repeat that i *have* worked with an organisation that turned out to be transphobic, see above for the details. as a dyke who id's as butch, and often gets mistaken for male, it has occured to me that i might have some problems if i went to michigan, so that personal element/self interest does make it rather more difficult for me to overlook it. but i certainly have respect for le tigre as feminists and as a bloody good group.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:32 / 19.04.02
A featured article on Audiogalaxy, April 19, 2002:

In Defense of Le Tigre

Protesting the Protesters

Outside Austin's Emo's at a recent Le Tigre show, a group of girls was handing out flyers. This is not an unusual sight at a Le Tigre show - the band is known for their political views, and encourages activism. For those unfamiliar, one voice of the all-female trio is Kathleen Hanna, whose innovations in punk with Bikini Kill helped spawn the Riot-Grrrl movement in the early '90s, encouraging women to get involved in activism (particularly of gender and sexual politics) through Punk music. Today, Le Tigre focuses on these issues and many more, including race politics, New York City politics, self defense, etc, etc, etc. They spread the word about their causes through a unique brand of Electronic-influenced Punk and accompanying videos.

What was different about the group outside Emo's that night was not the fact that they were protesting, but what they were protesting. After happily taking a flyer from one of the girls, expecting to find interesting information about a Guerilla Girls art show or a feminist fundraiser, I was shocked to find instead a page addressed to "Ladies, women, girls, queers, and others," pointing out nit-picky anti-Le Tigre details to "keep in mind as you watch the show tonight."

The flyers included two main points, first that Le Tigre once played at a women's festival that did not allow transgendered women in. The next point was that one particular song, "Bang Bang!" a protest song dealing with police brutality against Amadou Diallo by the NYPD, might make people of color feel uncomfortable at the show, which included a predominately white audience. (The song includes a section where the band counts the number of times Diallo was shot - 42. They didn't play the song that night).

While these points are well and good, it seems to me a counterproductive waste of energy to spend so much effort on these small details. Le Tigre didn't make the policy of the women's festival, and pointing out only the anti-transwomen policy ignores the fact that festivals like it are invaluable for bringing women musicians and artists together in a safe environment for encouragement and entertainment. Also, the song "Bang Bang!" is a very provocative protest song that makes an in-your-face point about the evils of police brutality and the potentials of abuse-of-power. Any person of color who felt uncomfortable when listening to this song would simply be misinterpreting it.

To me, activism in Punk music is about community, about working together for change. When the attacks of this community turn inward, the effect is to undermine the efforts of all. Le Tigre does an immense amount of good, giving women a place to feel comfortable, and an outlet to learn about important issues. They are one of the few bands left today who are truly making intelligent political statements in their music. Pointing out these minor faults with a flyer was a waste of time, effort, and money that could have been much better spent protesting something worth protesting. And here in Republican-run Texas, there are plenty of issues worth taking on. Le Tigre just isn't one of them.


-Lacey Tauber
 
 
that
22:19 / 19.04.02
You may all have seen these already, but for a bit of general background on the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, you might want to check out:

Strap-on.org on the MWMF 'womyn-born-womyn'/transphobic policy
MWMF on their policy
Words from/about another band, The Butchies, on their decision to play MWMF
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
23:54 / 19.04.02
When the attacks of this community turn inward, the effect is to undermine the efforts of all.

To me, this is tantamount to saying that it's valid to criticize the actions of others but not of oneself. But...

Le Tigre does an immense amount of good, giving women a place to feel comfortable, and an outlet to learn about important issues.

The problem w/criticism is that accolades are often left by the wayside. This is probably what I, in my previous criticisms of Le Tigre (and in many of the other things that I criticize on a daily basis), have left out. I took it as a relative given that they were, in general, a force for good. Sometimes these things actually need to be vocalized. But as a force for good, I think they still need to exist under a certain degree of scrutiny. Possibly moreso than obvious forces of evil, as people are probably more willing to give a general force for good the benefit of the doubt, even when serious doubt does exist. So, then I don't agree that...

(p)ointing out these minor faults with a flyer was a waste of time, effort, and money that could have been much better spent protesting something worth protesting. And here in Republican-run Texas, there are plenty of issues worth taking on. Le Tigre just isn't one of them.

Everyone is fallable and foibles should be pointed out. That said, props should be given to anyone who, like Le Tigre, faults on the side of positivity most of the time.
Arthur Sudnam, II
 
 
Jackie Susann
05:30 / 20.04.02
Any person of color who felt uncomfortable when listening to this song would simply be misinterpreting it.

Hi, my name's Lacey and I'm proud to think for people of color everywhere!
 
 
rizla mission
16:15 / 20.04.02
For what it's worth, I agree completely with the article quoted above.
 
 
Jackie Susann
20:30 / 20.04.02
The article is idiotic, mainly because it consists of two things. One is the classic argument on 'the left' that you should shut up about X, because we need a united front, not to waste our time on side issues, whatever. Bullshit - it's the classic argument for writing off minority issues (for example, trans exclusion) and making other people shut up about your fucked politics.

The other thing is the attempt to refute the criticisms of Le Tigre. Unfortunately, the writer hasn't tried to understand them. Michigan is, famously/notoriously, the ongoing site of struggles against its transphobic admission policies, and Le Tigre playing their pretty clearly constituted an expression of support for the policy. As for her comment on Bang Bang - the idea that she, personally, gets to decide whether or not people of color should be offended by any particular song is obviously ridiculous, esp. since she doesn't explain (or, presumably, understand) the criticism of this song. (Which I am guilty of too, but I have to run now.)
 
 
rizla mission
08:19 / 22.04.02
Probably out of my depth here, but I'll have a go anyway:

Ok, protesting the trans-phobic thing is understandable (but then as the article points out, aren't there just one or two people in the good ol' US of A who are slightly more deserving of a street protest than a feminist pop group with a one-step-removed link to an organisation that is a bit transphobic?)

As for the argument over 'Bang Bang', with all due respect, it's the biggest load of fucking bullshit I've ever heard in my entire life. Don't know how familiar any of you are with the song in question, but IT'S A PROTEST AGAINST POLICE BRUTALITY IN NEW YORK, WHICH HAPPENS TO QUESTION THE SHOOTING OF AN UNARMED AFRICAN MAN. For fucks sake, it's like fucking arguing that Public Enemy 'might make people of colour uncomfortable' (?what bizarre, outdated, vague phrasing?) because they mention the issue of race.

Or would everyone be happier if Le Tigre were men, who sang about nice things like driftwood and flowers in windows, so they wouldn't have to get involved in these scary arguments..?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
08:36 / 22.04.02
should be pointed out that the mwmf is more than 'a bit transphobic'. the organiser, lisa vogel, has apparently come out with some appalling anti trans shit. butch dykes have been made to prove their gender at the festival, transwomen have been physically removed. michigan is totally transphobic.

i'm not going to start marching in the streets against le tigre. but let's be honest, would we be disputing the 'rights' and 'wrongs' of this, if a band insisted on playing a festival that was even 'a bit' racist? i'm not saying le tigre have to be flawless, but i'm not going to go to their gigs or buy their records.

as i and others have said before, it's the apparent unwillingless of le tigre to discuss this issue that is pissing people off as much as anything. when we stop talking, we're really fucked.
 
  
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