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Pop Idol? GAY idol, more like...

 
 
Tom Coates
11:13 / 10.03.02
So Will from Pop Idol has come out as a great big homo... No one was surprised, surely? But nonetheless...

What kind of impact do people think this will have on his burgeoning career? Is he dead in the water or will it help him? Why do you think he felt compelled to tell people now? Why do all these 'I'm gay' speeches sound so apologetic? Is this another good thing for poofs in the UK? etc. etc. etc....

BBC NEws
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:12 / 10.03.02
Well, based on the evidence of Hear'say he will have great success with his first single and then everything else will disappear into a ditch. He'll probably get to appear alongside Jimmy Sommerville at Pride though.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:15 / 10.03.02
Interestingly somewhere recently Neil Tennant said he regretted coming out and what it had done for the Pet Shop Boys. Where they already irrelevent at that point (it would have been around 'Go West') or is it that we still prefer not to be told even if it's obvious?
 
 
w1rebaby
14:00 / 10.03.02
I don't think it will make any difference at all to sales, not nowadays, and certainly not considering everyone thought he was gay anyway. It's not like his target audience will care much. He'll have his single, his album and then vanish, just as much as before. It might have been a better move to save the "I'm gay" revelation until he needed a bit of publicity, though.

With regard to his personal life, on the one hand he won't have tabloid reporters trying to hunt down evidence any more, on the other hand Richard Littlejohn will feel free to write some article about how it's disgraceful that Pop Idol is supporting queers' careers, what kind of world are we living in etc. Undoubtedly accompanied by an amusing cartoon portraying Will as a member of the Village People.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:38 / 10.03.02
His long term career will depend on him finding better tunes. He has a good enough voice but, more importantly, he's bright and snaps back when he thinks he's being dissed.

I heard him on a Radio 4 discussion show through the week where he was intelligent, respectful and held his own with Peggy Seeker, who knows more about music thank he'll have learnt at public school. That impressed me and indicates that he's a far bit sharper than the usual aspiring pop idol.

Doubt the poof branding will hurt, will generate publicity if nothing else. Shame about the prognathous jaw though...

Me, I voted for Gareth. So much for the Sisterhood...
 
 
suds
07:38 / 12.03.02
w1rebaby, will was forced to sell his story to the papers because if he didn't, then they would have printed the story anyway.
he has always been 'out' with his family and chums. and i believe that the pop idol team wanted him to keep it quiet. i don't know why because i don't think they'll be any bias against him or his music.
i hope his album's good, and he includes that bill withers cover that he did on pop idol. that was ace.
 
 
Ganesh
10:05 / 12.03.02
I'm not sure. On the one hand, it's refreshing that he's come out before being caught wanking in a Los Angeles toilet. On the other, while it's easy enough to say 'it won't hurt his publicity', he could quickly become bracketed as a 'gay artist' - which, in the long-term (if, unlike Hear'Say, he has a long-term) could prove limiting. Singer-songwriters like Elton or George Michael have time to establish a degree of MOR 'adult credibility'; teen popsters (and I'm thinking Stephen Gately here) may survive less well.

I'm extremely ambivalent about my favourite popsters coming out. In the past it was good - important, even - in terms of 'visibility'; it definitely sucks much of the glamour/mystique out of their persona, though. I'd probably agree that Pet Shop Boys' output was more... magical somehow, when there was a degree of doubt. Likewise, Morrissey's remained intriguing because he's refused to be pinned down on the (fairly evident) subject of his sexuality.
 
 
Ganesh
10:14 / 12.03.02
quote:Originally posted by suds:
w1rebaby, will was forced to sell his story to the papers because if he didn't, then they would have printed the story anyway.


That's faintly depressing.

I'm monumentally uninterested in his music. During 'Pop Idol' we all got into discussion of who had the 'best voice' (Will = Mick Hucknall, Gareth = Westlife/George Michael, Darius = Tony Ferrino) and I guess the show pointed up how, ultimately, quality of vocal is incidental to whether or not someone becomes an 'idol'. Nobody on the programme was exciting or sexy in the way Bowie or Morrissey or Madonna or Suede or even bloody Britney were/are exciting. Any element of musical risk, of danger had been brutally excised...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:46 / 12.03.02
Absolutely - as I was pointing out to someone at the weekend, there's a bit in the single where he sings a lyric something like "when you want to stay the night, I wonder what is on your mind" - and he's *so* squeaky clean that you can quite plausibly believe he genuinely has no idea what's on person x's mind...

I'm also a bit bothered by the fact that it seems you can have gay popular figures as long as they are both utterly sexless and either a) unbelievably conservative / 'apolitical' (Brian from Big Brother/SMTV), or b) wealthy and upper class (Will, who is apparently mates with Princes William and Harry).
 
 
suds
11:13 / 13.03.02
flyboy, will is not chums with any royalty! hee hee! i know this because he is a chum of my flatmate.
i just get the feeling that he is a really, really nice guy who has always been 'out'; and has a really mean management company. the whole totp thing pissed me off a lot.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:21 / 13.03.02
quote:Originally posted by suds:
flyboy, will is not chums with any royalty! hee hee! i know this because he is a chum of my flatmate.


The tabloid press... *gulp*... lied to me?

I feel so betrayed... Not to mention credulous.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:38 / 13.03.02
Fly, that ties in with something that Tony Parsons (*spit*) was saying in one of the tabloids a couple of days ago; gay pop stars are apparently acceptable only as long as they're either celibate or 'tragic'.
 
 
Nelson Evergreen
00:30 / 15.03.02
Really, the issue of Will's sexuality is neither here nor there. Once he's forced to come into the open and admit to the nation that he's just tricked us into giving him a number one single with a Westlife album track named after some timewaster on Barbelith his career will be over, surely?
 
 
Ganesh
12:19 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by E. Randy Dupre:
Fly, that ties in with something that Tony Parsons (*spit*) was saying in one of the tabloids a couple of days ago; gay pop stars are apparently acceptable only as long as they're either celibate or 'tragic'.


Well, it's hardly a new insight; in fact, it's something of a cliche. Broadly applicable to all presentations of 'gayness', not just pop stars...
 
 
suds
17:20 / 15.03.02
nelson, i don't think his career will be over after 'evergreen.' mainly because he has the best voice i have heard in a long time (at least on totp), and he has a serotonin smile, and robbie williams has been winning brit awards for far too long now.
 
 
Ganesh
17:23 / 15.03.02
As I say, having a 'good voice' means sod-all in terms of longevity - and if that's a serotonin smile, someone needs to lower his Prozac...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:27 / 15.03.02
i think it's very important for gay pop stars - well, any gay person in the public eye - to be out. it sends a good message to all, but most importantly to the young queer types, many of whom inevitably think they're completely alone.

edited to add: i've never heard will young, only saw pop idol briefly many months back, but i suspect his 'career' might just get as far as an album and then wither away. and that's nothing to do with him being gay, it'll be cos the novelty has worn off.

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: shortfatdyke ]
 
 
Ganesh
17:32 / 15.03.02
But what's a pop star for? Are they there to be "important" or to be sexy, novel, exciting, ambiguous, dangerous? Whoever decided pop stars had to send a "good message"? Also, given the increasing profile of more 'ordinary' - and thus easy-to-identify-with - gay men and women in 'reality' TV, is the idea of 'gay visibility' in the pop world really as important as it used to be? Personally, I prefer my pop stars to be as other-worldly, inaccessible and un down-to-earth as possible...

Comparing Jimmy Somerville (out 'n' proud) with Morrissey (ever-evasive), I know which one was more important to me. Every time.

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Ganesh
18:05 / 15.03.02
This is how Will Young should be 'packaged'...

(It worked for Take That.)

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
18:20 / 15.03.02
ah well, i take my cue from queercore - out and in yer face. very empowering in my experience.

when i was younger, it might've saved me a hell of a lot of grief if a singer or film star i - and some of my class 'mates' -really liked was obviously gay. i may well be out of touch, but reality tv simply bores the shit out of me, i don't see big brother inmates as role models.
 
 
Ganesh
18:26 / 15.03.02
SFD: sure, but I think it's visibility that's important rather than the strangely deadening concept of the 'role model'. Either way, the 'out and proud' approach in a pop star may be important politically, but is it sexy? Is it glamorous, is it exotic, is it pop? Is it what they're for?

(Hmm... potential new thread here...)
 
 
Shortfatdyke
18:48 / 15.03.02
hmm. i am having trouble defining 'pop star'. and it depends on how much you attach to sexuality. i find it very important, and when someone comes out - whether it's a mate or michael stipe - they become far more powerful in every sense of the word to *me*. i see current pop/chart music as being almost totally for little kids. it is kiddie entertainment and kiddie entertainers are usually seen as being totally sexless.

then again, you mentioned jimmy somerville and morrissey... i have never been a fan of somerville's, while i was into the smiths for quite a while. tho i have far, far more respect for somerville because of his political activism and very little now for morrissey because of his right wing connections. i certainly think george michael appears far more confident since he came out, and certainly no less of a 'star' or exotic. if you're talking about popular music in general - rock is so damn homophobic/macho that openly gay musicians are really necessary, i think.

[possibly tying myself up in knots here.... will try and figure this out some more when the red wine's worn orf....]
 
 
Ganesh
11:13 / 16.03.02
You don't think they lose something when their sexuality's 'explained'? Maybe it is just me, then...

I guess the idea of 'mystique' is more important for me in a pop star than their being politically admirable, 'important' or having a 'message'. I admire Jimmy Somerville but find Morrissey, Bowie, Marc Almond, even Holly Johnson much more intriguing - because they blurred the lines, I guess, because there was a sense of the hidden, the forbidden; seedy glamour, pansexual indiscretions in darkened corners...

Queer rather than 'gay', I guess.

Of artists who came (or were dragged) out publicly, George Michael is interesting because, as you say, he's approaching things more confidently - and what interests me particularly is the way he's now venturing into at least slightly wilder realms, with the sex-in-public vibe of 'Outside' and the fetishiness of 'Freeek'.

Elton John went on producing the same MOR as before, really.

Pet Shop Boys have probably been less successful - but more poignant - since Neil Tennant outed himself in 'Attitude' way back. I do miss their little in-jokes, the lack of gender-specific pronouns and so on. There's little mystique around them now, but they continue to produce beautiful bittersweet music.

The more I talk about this, the more I wonder whether this is all a matter of personal preference. I like my pop stars to be, in some way, indefinable; you prefer their sexuality, at least, to be laid bare.

Food for thought. I think I'll start a separate thread on this...

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Sax
11:32 / 16.03.02
Had in interesting conversation in the smoking room at work the other day. A woman was sounding off about how "disgusting" it was that Will had announced that he was gay.
I asked her why, and she suggested "it sent out the wrong signals to the kids".

When I pushed her a bit and said it might actually be quite an inspirational thing to do for a lot of teenagers who might be struggling with sexuality questions, she snorted in a way that suggested such a thing didn't happen in her universe.

I also asked her what she thought of George Michael and Elton John as two examples of gay pop stars, and she said that was okay, because "they're for grown-ups". She loves Elton, as it goes.

Ever since she's looked at me a bit strangely if I ever see her in the corridor or in the smoking room, as if I'm a little "suspect". Which is quite enjoyable, actually.

In answer to Ganesh's point, while I do applaud Will's decision, I do think a bit of ambiguity is also nice. But not when it's forced - who was it who claimed to be a "homosexual who hasn't slept with a man yet"? Was it Brett Anderson? That smacked more of courting tabloid controversy than honesty and openness.
 
 
Ganesh
11:40 / 16.03.02
I think it was both, Sax, possibly even a little naive. The backlash was rather nasty, putting forth the suggestion that one couldn't claim any sexual leanings without hard evidence. He was right, basically; the time, place and situation just made him sound a bit wanky.

I must admit the whole concept of the pop star as 'role model' turns my stomach slightly. Why should pop stars 'set an example'? Is that their function? Should it be? Am I setting too much store by how exciting they are or aren't?

[Edited to point out that Brett Anderson actually claimed to be a bisexual man who'd never had a homosexual experience.]

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
m. anthony bro
19:03 / 20.03.02
1. Brett Anderson is a rock star, if he can't get dick, then what's wrong?

2. Will Young could very well be a one hit wonder, and not because he has done anything wrong, but simply because being gay and famous still has too much novelty value, because there's still a fair amount of novelty about being gay.

3. Of course, there is the one hundred legs and six pubic hairs theory (front row of a spice girls concert) which says that the girls who read Dolly and Smash Hits are the ones who will buy all his stuff. They might still post on websites going 'good on U, Will, UR BRave!!!!! (hugz)', but the droolingoveryou factor is gone.

4. this leads to the inevitable: a thousand covers of attitude, a slag off in gay times, a night with Lily Savage at Pride, and that's your career buddy.

5. Or, people could appreciate his music for what it is, regardless of how much pillow is now in his diet.

damn, he's pretty fucked.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:00 / 20.03.02
quote:Originally posted by mike[bro]:
5. Or, people could appreciate his music for what it is, regardless of how much pillow is now in his diet.

damn, he's pretty fucked.


Me-yoww! Saucer of milk for table 2.

 
 
Ganesh
21:35 / 21.03.02
Appreciate his music for what it is: unremarkable, undemanding cover-version chart-fodder sung in a Hucknallesque vibrato. Hmmm...
 
 
Bear
21:40 / 21.03.02
But its all just a conspiracy to make Gareth the real star, its true, its damn true !
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
10:40 / 22.03.02
quote:Originally posted by mike[bro]:
1. Brett Anderson is a rock star, if he can't get dick, then what's wrong?


The scorn he got was not because he 'couldn't', but it was more that he didn't. The context from which this quote of his came from was along the lines of, 'yes, I am actually bisexual, but I have never actually had sex with a man'. I think he now regrets having said that...
 
 
Ganesh
10:44 / 22.03.02
... although in a sense, he's actually quite right. Is one's sexuality contingent on actually having (and being able, somehow, to 'prove' you have) 'had sex' with X, Y and Z? What, in this context, constitutes 'sex'? Is a virgin, then, asexual? Etc., etc.

The context, though, made it sound wanky.
 
 
Sax
11:04 / 22.03.02
Interesting question Ganesh has just raised, about whether sexual orientation is dependent on actually having sex.

...

And I was going to say some more about it but my mind's just gone blank. I'm just going outside for a walk and a breath of air.
 
 
bio k9
17:58 / 23.03.02
Ganesh, would you tell a 17yr old straight virgin hes asexual when hes sporting a boner at the local strip club? Or a 17yr old gay virgin hes asexual because hes never done it with a man? Would you tell a fourty year old father of two, thats attracted to other men, hes straight because hes never had sex with a man?

Wierd.
 
 
Ganesh
21:11 / 23.03.02
No, BioK9, I wouldn't; that's exactly my point.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:57 / 25.03.02
I think the quote was used as an excuse to give Suede a bit of a knock (in the same way Richey Edwards conspicuous lack of ability to play the guitar was used against the Manics), considering Suede's polysexual glam-beast early days it was seen as Brett posing for 'outsider chic', in the same way that Travis recently said they'd done every drug except crushed Co-Co Pops.
Outside of that highly charged atmosphere I don't think anyone would have remembered it to use as an anecdote today...
 
  
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