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Underground > Radio & Music >

Hate Music?

16:50 / 06.07.01

It's gone a bit quiet on music recently, so I thought I'd post this.

A lot of people - myself included - generally subscribe to the idea that if you like a piece of music, that's all that matters - sod being cool, whether your mates like it, etc.

But how would you feel if you really loved a piece of music, but discovered after you started to love it that its creator held views you found objectionable?

Would you still groove your ass off to, say, a white power disco anthem?

Rollo Kim, on location

16:57 / 06.07.01

Interesting... difficult... the only time it happened to me was when I was doing A levels and got into Joy Division - then found out the singer was obsessed with the nazis and liked to tell the odd racist joke [despite the fact that they were all listening to disco, going to reggae and gay clubs etc]. I can listen to the odd track still but I still always think 'what a tota git' about the singer.

How many of your favourite rap/rock acts have said something fucking dumb about 'queers' or 'dykes'?

It's friday, it's 7.30... it's time to yell at the 'shit in a can' that is Top Of The Poops.

Dane 'fat bastard' and a television tribute band?!!? [yeah I know it's The Strokes and they're cool but they're still a television tribute band!]

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Dr Rollo Will C U Now ]

E Randy Dupre

18:45 / 06.07.01

As I've asked before - does knowing what a right-wing twat John Wayne was make his films any less enjoyable?

Most people say not. Why does this apply to film stars but not musicians?

Jack The Bodiless

21:39 / 06.07.01

We've already had this go around with Eminem, surely?

12:09 / 07.07.01

I missed the Eminem thread, so apologies for this if it's treading old ground. I was more interested in whether or not your opinions would change of the music itself, and how you would feel about it.

I wasn't really thinking of Eminem, or songs where things are that blatant. There are obviously a range of arguments employed where dodgy lyrics are clear - I was more interested in how your opinions would change on a piece of music you had come to like before you knew anything about it.

For instance, there are quite a few records which I like, say, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan's work, Carl Orff's Carmina Burana, or some dub reggae, where I can't pretend I know exactly what is being said. I'm aware that many of these examples have religious overtones, but that's about all.

I don't know how my opinions would change if I found out what was being said was offensive to me (though I'm quite hard to offend) or whether they should, and I was interested to see what people thought. Sorry if that's all been covered while you were talking about Marshall.

ynh

13:03 / 07.07.01

Surely it's worth engaging again, Jack, you boring old curmudgeon.

TB, I take it you're not particularly fond of Christians? Or at least find enuf of that objectionable that it creeps into your enjoyment now and then?

Whichever, this happens to me, anyway. Actually, it happens more with bands I already don't like: ie I discover they hold views I don't and am quite pleased to bitch more vociferously.

On the other hand, Sinead O'Connor's an ordained catholic priest, and she recently released one of the best albums I've ever heard. Then again, she's pretty clear about the breadth of her beliefs and a sort of trans-faith ecumenism.

And John Wayne makes me ill. And Rollo's actually put me off Joy Division just as I was getting interested again. Politics is a little more touchy than religion for me.

13:36 / 07.07.01

Originally posted by YNH:

TB, I take it you're not particularly fond of Christians?

I'm not really a fan of any organised religion (I much prefer disorganised ones.)

Our Lady of The Two Towers

14:32 / 07.07.01

The Eminem thread basically polarised around the 'does he actually mean this?' issue. This is slightly different. I don't know what effect it would have on me, but then I'm a boring indie/electronica kid so these days most of the people I listen to don't actually have any opinions anyway.

To use the John Wayne situation, I don't like the films because i don't particularly like Westerns first, and I don't like Wayne as a secondary thing. I guess if I was put in this situation I would like the artifact but hate the producer.

E Randy Dupre

15:46 / 07.07.01

Wayne's probably a bad example to draw on here. If I may, though, I'll carry on with the film star link - when you're talking about music in this way, you can almost guarantee that sooner or later the discussion'll come around to "But I wouldn't listen to them even if they weren't neo-nazi scumballs - their music's still shit," style posts.

How about James Stewart? Pro-Reagan, right-wing, but - unlike Wayne - you wouldn't know it to watch his film performances. I think there's a distinct parallel there with what TB's asking. Does knowing about Stewart's political opinions affect your enjoyment of his films?

01:35 / 14.07.01

I've had a sort of reverse situation come up. I'll hear or see an interview with a band who's music I hate. And they'll be really funny or engaging or whatnot, and I'll think, "Hey these seem like some pretty cool guys." So I'll try to give their music a second chance.

Invariably I'll still hate it.

Pin

08:35 / 14.07.01

I think the whole "film star as political cunt, but the films are good" way of looking at this is wrong 'cos the actors aren't playing themselves, and there's nothing personal in it, where as with music, the song-writer normally puts personal feelings into it, and then we find out that we don't agree with some of their personal feelings.

But is this limited to to the singer, or what? If a band you like has a neo-nazi drummer, but the rest are all good, do you still not listen to the band?

ynh

13:33 / 14.07.01

I suppose it's the difference between "everything is political" and "[something] isn't," Pin. I didn't participate in the Eminem thread, but I keep thinking that brushing his lyrics aside with "does he mean it?" is a little weak. His hate discourse is displacing /(any)/ sort of more productive conversation the culture might have. What Loz says about liking the artifact but hating the producer, I think, is what most of us end up doing - Burroughs is a good example here.

E Randy, you're right about the Wayne example, but I'd like to thank you for giving me another way to weasel out of ever watching It's a Wonderful Life. (aside: I've seen other Stewart films)

Pin, what you're saying has now sunk in. I think the entire band's liable for the politics of its members. Anyone forgotten about Professor Griff's antisemitic comments? With film, I'm more likely to be critical of the producer/director because s/he has the most power over representation. But to go back to Wayne, his politics weren't much different from his characters. In some ways, neither are Brad Pitt's.

uncle retrospective

14:33 / 14.07.01

quote:Originally posted by [Your Name Here]:
And Rollo's actually put me off Joy Division just as I was getting interested again. Politics is a little more touchy than religion for me.

Read "touching from a distance" That'll put of Ian Curtis, fast. Yes he was a bastard and a Tory.
But that knowing that hasn't ruined the music, Christ not listening to a band cause X member is a twat would stop most bands ever getting off the ground.
God, what about the beatles? Lennon was a right bastard!

Saying that I'm not going to listen to screwdriver cause it's my kind of shouty metal.

I don't know if that had a point.

[ 14-07-2001: Message edited by: uncle retrospective ]

19:18 / 16.07.01

If an artists art has nothing to do with the politics of said artist why should it matter what the artists politics are to enjoy the art?
Just because Ian Curtis was obsessed with Nazis doesn't make him a Nazi. Just because he told the odd racist joke doesn't make him a racist (come to the south side of Chicago sometime and you'll see vehement anti-racists tell the odd racist joke). And it's not like if you buy a Joy Division album any money will go towards Ian Curtis and his views...

13:19 / 17.07.01

Yagg> Sounds familar. Menswe@r were a classic example of this. They were crap. truly awful, but their interviews were very funny.

I wouldn't care about the politics of the artist/band I was listening to. I can't really be arsed to get references from employers and bandmates' relatives before buying a CD.

May be you could put badges on records.

LIBERAL AND CLEAN: THE VIEWS OF ALL INVOLVED WITH THIS RECORD SHOULD CAUSE NO OFFENCE TO YOU PERSONALLY OR EVEN MAKE YOU SQUIRM A BIT.

OK, I'm taking the piss, but unless an artist I really liked said, "I will donate the proceeds from this record to the nazi party", I would n't do anything. I might draw the line there tho.

It kinda reminds me of friend that got Jesus and threw away his Led ZEp records because they were "demonic".