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Barbelith Underground Monthly Access Fee

20:43 / 15.03.02

Tom and everyone else,

For several years now, Tom Coates has made available a very cool open forum community of stealth, magick, uber-technology, and many other tre's cool things.

Now, Barbelith is bigger. It could, in effect, collapse under its own weight. Tom has spent alot of money.

I think the following could be a viable solution to the issues of:

1) 'uncontrollable' growth
2) enough bandwidth
3) 'trollers'
4) And lastly but not leastly, it would make the posts and thusly the discussions more valuable to those that make them and read them.

Tom,

You should charge a nominal fee of $3.00 US to $5.00 US per month for each member. The payment should be done by automatic funds transfer out of the member's checking account (which is easier to get than a credit card). Or it could be done on a member's credit card with a repeating monthly charge. And with this type of automatic funds transfer is that Barbelith would get its money each month even if someone didn't have money in their checking account. The member is the only one charged an over draft fee. Minor responsiblity that we can all benefit from. So, most important, it doesn't hurt Tom or Barbelith.

To make the deal sweeter, Tom, you could give percentage discounts on 3,6,9 or 12 month advance purchases.

As well, for each new member requesting access, there should be a start up fee that would in effect be paying first and last month's access fee. This would more than likely disuade trouble makers from creating more than one 'suit'.

Again, FREE is nice. But realistically it is a NICER idea to know Barbelith is going long term and Tom is getting something for his 'troubles'. $3-$5 per month is not a big deal even if you're poor or an inconsistent poster. I show up every few months, chat a while, disappear again. I would still pay the $5.00 and I ain't rich.

All you other 'Lithers out there: How much do you really value Barbelith?

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: Iao Adonai ]

20:47 / 15.03.02

That sounds great, and I'd be more than willing to contribute. I have a problem though

I don't have a checking account, thus no automatic withdraws for membership fees.

Now if you know of a way to work around the no checking account, no credit card thing, tell me and I'll find the way to come up with that $5.00 a month.

09:07 / 16.03.02

Checking accounts are easy enough to get.

If you really aren't able to open one, MONEY ORDER is the next option. And the policy for money orders should be such that they require a 6 month advance purchase. All money order members will then be notified by email one month prior to their renewal date that they need to send another or set up an auto funds transfer; else your membership will be closed at such and such date.

09:10 / 16.03.02

I can't open a checking account because I don't have a job, most of the banks around here require you to have like $200 dollars to open one. So yes, one could say I "really can't open one"

When you say closed, do you just mean no posting privilages or deleted completely?

09:15 / 16.03.02

quote:Now if you know of a way to work around the no checking account, no credit card thing, tell me and I'll find the way to come up with that $5.00 a month.

Here here...
If ever there was a time that I felt like donating to Barbelith,it's now. Tom has had to deal with sooooo much with no return except kudos and thanks from us.

As with trijhaus, I am in the same situation.

Can I just mail you a 5er? I really don't want/need a bank account.

09:16 / 16.03.02

No access. No read. No post. Not tell you pay.

$200? That's steep. It's usually only $100.

Money Orders are $1.00. 6 months access at $5.00 per month would be $30.00. Say you get a $5.00 discount for 6 months advance payment so you spend $25.00 plus $1.00 for a total of $26.00 for 6 months of Barbeltih Access.

Again, how much do you really want it? Are you gonna' fight the payment idea 'cause it's a bit inconvenient for you personally and milk Tom/ Barbelith until they're dead and gone the way of some other dot com? Or are you gonna' pay for the privilege to play and help instill some longevity here?

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: Iao Adonai ]

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:30 / 16.03.02

I really, really hate the idea of compulsory payments. There's been times in my life when a fiver meant the difference between eating today and eating next fucking week, bank account or no bank account, and I can think of several reasons why a person might not have the means or ability to pay up.

There's already a voluntary donation system set up, so how about a donation drive? How 'bout the new board has a Church Roof Fund kind of graphic, so we can check out bandwidth against our Paypal input?

(Which reminds me: Tom, if you're reading this, my favorite newbie wants to punt some dough in your direction. What's the drill again?)

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]

09:31 / 16.03.02

This is getting confusing posting about payments in two different threads.

I'm willing to pay for the privilage to post here.

I just think there really needs to be a treasurer, you know somebody I send my $5.00 a month to.

09:38 / 16.03.02

Look, In the OTHER thread, I got a little niggly. Sorry.

But check this out. If you don't have a checking account or credit card, IT's OK.

MONEY ORDER solution. And for the money order solution, you pay $25.00 for 6 months access. All at one time. The next 6 months you can worry about that fiver here and there.

Funds drives are great, but this board is now at a place where it needs consistent and calculatble income from month to month. "Consistency" is the key with the financial burdens this board faces.

As far as a Treasurer goes, that should most definitely be TOM. he's the one with the connects for what money has to go where. Any kind of middle man between Tom and where the money needs to go would only cause problems. MORE REASON for Tom to delegate moderating responsiblities.

This solution keeps the board resonably open to anyone, provided they can come up with $25.00 every 6 months.

09:44 / 16.03.02

Do we really want to saddle Tom with even more responsibility though?

What if a money order gets lost in the mail for awhile before it gets to him and an account gets closed. Who gets bitched out? Why Tom of course. Don't you think he gets enough of that without adding this little bit of responsibility to his already considerable load?

I think, though, that Tom should be the one to pick the treasurer. If he agrees with the whole access fee thing.

25.00? Hmmm....I can probably handle that.

09:45 / 16.03.02

I think if Tom were to post the sum of money he's spent keeping this place running since its inception, it would probably be rather humbling and make a 5 dollar membership fee look rather trifling in comparison.

No one wants to pay for anything if it can be had for free, of course, but I think in this instance it might be a matter of accepting the inevitable...

09:53 / 16.03.02

Actually i think if tom worked out how much he'd spent on this place over the years he'd start to cry...

for what its worth I still value the notion of donations since it leaves tom free from any obligations that paying for a service might leave him open to.

09:54 / 16.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Iao Adonai:
No access. No read. No post. Not tell you pay.

One thing's for certain, that'd definitely stop new people from joining up.

Who in their right mind is going to pay if they can't see what they're paying for?

Also, isn't a bit presumptuous to suggest that Tom be the treasurer without, you know, actually running the idea past him first? He's voiced his unease about accepting funds via anything other than Paypal in the past, due to entirely understandable worries about possible problems; money changing hands in anything other than a completely visible, traceable manner can lead to all kinds of general nastiness and distrust, especially when those involved don't actually know each other personally. I'm not saying it'd happen here, but sometimes it's better to cover your own back.

As Mordant says, there's a voluntary payment scheme up and running. If funds are a problem, then that should be publicised more (a Paypal banner at the top of the page, maybe?). If you're looking at compulsory payments as a means of getting rid of trolls (a term that's becoming extremely overused on the board right now), then I suspect that it would succeed. It's far too drastic a measure for that purpose alone, though.

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: E. Randy Dupre ]

09:58 / 16.03.02

I think if Tom is actually getting money on a regular basis to keep this ship afloat, any 'headaches' from bitch outs would be minor in comparison to his past head aches.

Cameron's right, he's had no help on this. When a person has been working long and hard on something like Tom's Barbelith project with not much more than well wishing and an occasional "donation", this kind of fix would go along way for Tom and ultimatley for Barbleith and all of its members.

Oh yeah, and BANG! No more Trolls. (Unless their rich kids with too much time on their hands, of course).

Yes! ONLY $25.00 for 6 Months Access. Isn't that pretty affordable? All you have to do is go down to the local market, buy a money order for $1.00 and drop it in the mail for .32 cents postage and you got 6 more months!

09:58 / 16.03.02

Okay, good point: Not being able to view the board till you join.

So, make a two week free access to view only with a limit of like 5 posts or something until you get money sent or a funds transfer set up. Make it a teaser.

Otherwise: what about advertising? The webzine can certainly help with that. There are several suggestions on inviting 'guests' like Morrisson and Rushkoff. There has got to be some way to generate revenue with this venture. It has to earn a living just like Tom, and everyone else.

How about approaching some companies that might be interested in this venue, whether to utilize it to propagate their material, people, what have you; or to advertise to the members or all the above?

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: Iao Adonai ]

09:58 / 16.03.02

Agreed. However, there's been noises about the webzine being integrated into the board rather than being kept as a seperate entity.

I'd suggest going back to the Barbelith Anthology idea from a year or so back - publishing a collection of pieces by members of the board and raising some cash through that - but first time round it died on its feet. Maybe now that we've got more members, or once we see the results of the 'sponsorship of new members' idea, it could be tried again?

Are there any other ways of generating funds outside of bringing in compulsory payments? Other possible offshoots from the board, similar in purpose to the Anthology?

The main reason I think we should look at something slightly separate from the board, but still affiliated with it, is that I'm sure Tom and Cal have enough on their plates at the moment, what with getting the new incarnation of this place up and running, without having another shitstorm brew up immediately after the last. The issue of compulsory payments has always been a hugely contentious one here. Let's see how the new board functions first, eh?

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: E. Randy Dupre ]

09:58 / 16.03.02

If you're looking at compulsory payments as a means of getting rid of trolls (a term that's becoming extremely overused on the board right now), then I suspect that it would succeed. It's far too drastic a measure for that purpose alone, though.– E. Randy Dupre

I have a feeling it wouldn't succeed. If certain individuals are so desperate for attention, why shouldn't they be willing to pay for it? In fact, such individuals may be more likely to pay up just so they can rub it Tom's face when he decides to take action against them. Forget that noise.

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: Ierne ]

Matthew Fluxington

09:58 / 16.03.02

I agree with Ierne. If Knowledge + 1 has made anything quite clear, is that he's willing to go out of his way to be involved with Barbelith.

I don't understand why everyone keeps using the word 'troll' in plural when the only truly problematic troll that we've had is Knowledge + 1.

Instead of having all kinds of extreme measures taken to rid our world of trolls in plural, why not work on our singular troll? Perhaps we should consider some perspective and question when we're getting into overkill... and this does apply to the "pay barbelith" idea, because I think we should really see hard numbers and outline exactly how the money would be spent, consider different approaches to contributing money to Barbelith.

I do think that having to pay to sign up will face us with a decrease in new blood, and scare away a lot of worthwhile people.

I think it might be better to encourage donations through pledge drives which offer incentives of some kind - like special prizes for people who contribute larger sums of money. I think the way public television or WFMU raises money to fund their operation would be the best model...

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:58 / 16.03.02

Oops, wrong thread...

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]

09:58 / 16.03.02

No! No! No!

I really appreciate everyone trying to be helpful, but just because I've been getting frustrated and am trying to move the board in a different direction does NOT mean that I want everyone to start paying for it! ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The bills are $130 a month. I get in nearly $90 in voluntary donations. Often the shortfall is covered by more occasional donations filtered through Loz. It has been a pain keeping the money together over the last year, but essentially it's really not very large amounts of money we're talking about. I'd like to keep it that way.

As I've said - voluntary donations to the cost of running the place are fine - as far as I'm concerned it's like friends clubbing together to rend a nightclub or something. I don't WANT to make a profit from this place, I don't WANT to force people out who can't go through the normal financial channels.

in fact all I want is for the people who are on the board to feel free and comfortable enough to talk about whatever they want at the astonishingly high level of debate that Barbelith is capable of. All I want is for people on the board to continue to meet new people through it - people who inspire them and make them do new and creative things. All I want is for Barbelith to be a place for engaged and passionate people to STAY engaged, STAY passionate - and to help introduce each other (and anyone watching) to the full weirdness, wonderfulness, horror, spectacle and magic of the world.

And now I'm going to quote from a song: "Hate your job? Love your stuff? If you think that's living you are wrong."

There are more important things in life than money - if you can find them. Barbelith can show you the way...

Our Lady of The Two Towers

09:58 / 16.03.02

Charging for Barbelith is the best way to fuck it up the quickest. No-one new would be willing to pay money for a site they are unsure how much they would contribute to (think how offputting the Head Shop can be, even to people that have been here a while). I am happy to donate money to Tom every month, I would be less happy if it became a mandatory thing, which is why I'm glad Tom has ixnayed the whole subscription thing.

And consider this, if the Knodge did pay a subscription, would that not give him more of a right to stay here and post the crap that he does?

10:29 / 16.03.02

Trijhaos, Rex, I am shortly working on something that can clear the way for folks without PayPal to make voluntary donations to the board.

[Edited to say, echo Loz. Money is very corrupting, surprisingly so. I run a not-for-profit corporation; and every time money raises its ugly head, I have to smash it down with a mallet. Money changes things. Myself, I contribute the smallest amount possible to Barbelith to best maintain the illusion that it's free for me; I *don't* want to get into my head that this is something I pay for. I almost think that being free Barbelith is better able to resist unwanted manipulation. You know what I mean? Free will is the real juice that runs this place.]

[ 16-03-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]

15:14 / 16.03.02

No fees! for all the reasons given.

If the board needs more money I for one am happy to up my monthly paypal donation. I don't ever want Tom to have to run this place like a business, or even a charity.

As for the anti-troll argument in favour of fees- make anything idiotproof and science will invent a better idiot.