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Underground > Radio & Music >

crushing | Delia Derbyshire

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

14:56 / 18.03.02

Just thought I'd say.

Why are all the good ones dead of renal failure?

[ 18-03-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Horror ]

[ 19-03-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Horror ]

[ 19-03-2002: Message edited by: Flux = No Rock n' Roll Fun ]

Matthew Fluxington

15:14 / 18.03.02

Sigh. And why can't more girls be like Matter-Transformer Lass?

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

15:20 / 18.03.02

Ah. What you've done there, Flux, and it's an understandable mistake, is to confuse a pioneer of pre-synthesizer electronic music with a member of the Legion of Super Heroes.

And thus, what you have done there is confuse the use of "crush" in a self-mocking sense to describe affection and respect possessed for one of the founder members of The White Noise, probably second only to the Silver Apples in early "pop" electronic music mythology, with something involving tits. And a claw.

Easy mistake to make. Especially what with the alliterative initials - usually a dead giveaway.

[ 18-03-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Horror ]

Matthew Fluxington

15:26 / 18.03.02

Yeah, yeah. I'm just teasing you.

Dr. Who, Legion of Super-Heroes, whatever.

[fatbeard]There was never a character in the Legion called Matter-Transformer Lass. Daniel Clowes made up that character as a parody.[/fatbeard]

Regrettable Juvenilia

16:13 / 18.03.02

This ties into something I wanted to discuss after it came up in sfd's 'butch rage' thread, but didn't want to hi-jack that thread for... So instead I'm going to hi-jack this one.

I've noticed, on Barbelith and elsewhere, that there are two (to reduce things a lot) attitudes towards the relationship between the talent and attractiveness of musical artists (and actors, and probably novelists and comic book writers/artists as well). One is the tendancy to talk about people who one considers very talented and whose output one likes in terms of being attracted to them - which may be because they are also physically attractive, but may not, and this is usually not the *primary* factor. At the opposite end of the spectrum there are those people who feel that the physical attractiveness of the artist is at best a distraction, and that the world of popular music is actually hurt by being overrun by pop stars who are famous largely for their looks.

Now, I'm definitely in the former camp... and I find the whole thing fascinating. But does anyone know what I'm on about or am I just babbling?

16:40 / 18.03.02

Whoops, I got mixed up with former & latter for a mo... but yes, I am definitely in the former & falling in love with strangers all the time, sometimes for their looks but usually supplemented by talent of some sort.

What's the opposite of this? That it's not appropriate to talk about talented (famous) people in terms of attractiveness, even though you're not (wholly) discussing physical attractiveness... because this sort of talk gets conflated with and gives power to the cult of physical appearance? (Cult not being the exact right word --but I have to go with it & hurry off now, I'm not supposed to be online...)

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:44 / 18.03.02

Well, it's a bit like fucking Elvis, isn't it?

Sorry. To expatiate.

I find it very difficult to separate terms of affection and terms of admiration at a certain point of involvement. Thus, I have a crush on Jeremy Hardy, effectively, not because he is my type but because he is so *lovely* and *funny* and *lovely*. Ditto Eddie Izzard. Or, for that matter, although I couldn't pick Carson McCullers or Dorothy Parker out of a lineup I would quite happily describe myself as crushing on them. Kristen Hersh is really not my type, but I find her music sufficiently moving and engaging to evoke and invoke a dialogue of attraction.

Now, by some accounts Delia Derbyshire was a fine-looking woman (generally she is obscured by fuck-off great reel-to-reel machines in photogrphs, as is right and proper), as Girton maths graduates go, but the source of the crush is the discovery of www.deliaderbyshire.com, and on that site of a series of very cool interviews and some MP3s of songs I hadn't heard since I lost my vinyl collection. And it was just so *lovely*.

As opposed to T-shirt-staining fanboy tit-claw action, for example.

(Plus, I now have an image of Flux=Very Specific Understanding of British Culture saying to Spike "I have every episode of Dr. Who. Not Red Dwarf, though. Because it's not.....available.....on....DVD." Which, oddly enough, makes me want to touch *my* tits with my claw.)

[ 18-03-2002: Message edited by: The Haus under the Ocean ]

Matthew Fluxington

16:56 / 18.03.02

I have no interest in either Dr. Who or Red Dwarf.

Anyway, I'm going to have to point out that until you mentioned it, I didn't realize that Derbyshire was part of The White Noise. I like the White Noise okay, though I certainly like The Silver Apples a lot more. I do like the song "My Game of Loving" a lot. I haven't heard it in a long time, though.

I'm going to agree with Haus' stance on the "attractiveness of artists" issue. What he's said more or less is how I've always been, barring some people who are just pretty, and you have to call a spade a spade...(but not a David Spade)

[ 18-03-2002: Message edited by: Flux = No Rock n' Roll Fun ]

ONLY NICE THINGS

17:12 / 18.03.02

David Spade? Phwooooooar!

17:45 / 18.03.02

Haus: that link didn't work, so I Googled and got this. Very Cool.

18:35 / 18.03.02

what's this thread about? i pubished and editted an anthology of experimental writing / art with work mostly by musicians some years back called Wandering Archive and we printed an incredible comic that derbyshire drew, this crazy mystical adventure, with fractal splash panels and all kind of stuff, utterly nuts.

she was quite the well rounded artist.

Regrettable Juvenilia

23:07 / 18.03.02

quote:Originally posted by The Haus under the Ocean:
As opposed to T-shirt-staining fanboy tit-claw action, for example.

But on what basis exactly is this "opposed" to fancying someone in the public eye on the basis of their talent - especially if they are an actor and you're further conflating your affection/admiration for them with ffection/admiration for the character(s) they play? Other than the tried and tested “when I do it, and when people I like do it, or when people do it about people I like, it’s cool – when people I don’t like do it or when people do it about people I don’t like, it’s not” rationale?

05:53 / 19.03.02

i must admit to being the only member of a bunch of women at an ani di franco gig loudly raving about her beautiful 12 string guitar while the others, quite literally, drooled at the sight of her arse.

i have had one serious, serious crush on a singer - ellyott, from queercore maestros sister george. that, however, was only really after i'd met her and interviewed her and hung out with her a bit. the rest of the time, when i have serious respect for an artiste, it really is just that, although i've been accused of pretending that that's how i am in order to appear 'more p.c.'.

i'm beginning to wonder if there's something wrong with me....

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

06:46 / 19.03.02

I don't think there's something *wrong* with you at all, SFD, although I would suggest that you are constructing a rhetorical device whereby you can imply that there is something wrong with you arse-loving co-giggers, or more precisely with their failure to consume a performance by a musician purely on the merits of the musical performance.

I do, however, also think that there is something quite limiting about restricting the idea of attraction, or the idea of the crush, to the desire to put one bit of a body against another bit of a body and wubble gently.

Case in point, to hammer home the unbelievable hypocrisy in my position identified by Flyboy (to whom I can answer only that I was talking about fancying Matter-Transformer Lass, rather than Matter Transformer Lass' creator; Flux made a category error; to be correct, Delia Derbyshire would have to have *been* Dr. Who, which to the best of my knowledge she wasn't) - I fancy Young Lex, and I love Michael Rosenbaum more than any product of this or any other culture, but I don't think I would necessarily want to rub myself against either.

06:55 / 19.03.02

hmm. think i'm more concerned about the amount of people at ani's gig who appeared to go along purely to ogle. the post gig discussion centred on how 'gorgeous' she was and the music got barely a mention.

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

07:02 / 19.03.02

Then again, Natalie Imbruglia has based an entire career on people being only vaguely aware that she is singing...

No star here laces

08:33 / 19.03.02

Exactly. I'd quite happily go to see the Torn one sing a few hours of pilfered tunes while wearing earplugs and a goofy expression.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:03 / 19.03.02

Ah, but that's something else quite entirely - fancying someone even though they're shit. Which seems to happen to me (and others I know) far less often, and functions in a different way from the kind of thing Haus is talking about...

No star here laces

11:14 / 19.03.02

Are you 'othering' me??

The Natural Way

11:21 / 19.03.02

Not to contribute, just to say Haus's "Tit and claw" stuff never fails to make me piss myself.

Oooo, I find myself attracted!

Let the wubbling commence....

12:00 / 19.03.02

quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Horror:
I can answer only that I was talking about fancying Matter-Transformer Lass, rather than Matter Transformer Lass' creator.

Makes sense. So tit-claw attraction refers to crushing on a fictional character to whom there's nothing beyond the page, who has no inherent creative powers?

What about being a little in love with a fictional character in literature, like Diomedes? Or, say, purely theoretically, Margaret Schlegel?

On a slightly other tack, then crushing on a character as presented on a television show or in a movie is a bit higher-grade because said presentation is wound together with the actor's creative power?

Highest-grade crush is liking the creative person soi-meme?

Pretty interesting thread. Several different strands going on, actually. Plus Delia Derbyshire herself, a very admirable woman.

Matthew Fluxington

12:08 / 19.03.02

Yes, this is a very interesting thread.

Question: should it stay here? I'm thinking that this thread should maybe be moved over to Head Shop for its "Politics of Crushing" content, and another new thread should start to pick up the Delia Derbyshire slack...

(by the way Haus, I altered yr altered title to make it a bit more neat and concise)

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

12:15 / 19.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Persephone:

Makes sense. So tit-claw attraction refers to crushing on a fictional character to whom there's nothing beyond the page, who has no inherent creative powers?

What about being a little in love with a fictional character in literature, like Diomedes? Or, say, purely theoretically, Margaret Schlegel?

a) Diomedes is not fictional, damn you. he's real and he's my friend.

b) Tricky, but I would suggest that your definition based around creativity falls down at the actor stage - that is surely an admiration for somebody's *skill*, or an aggregate of scripting/acting skills, rather than a reflection on "creativity" per se.

Arguably hypocritical though this is, I fear that the answer is that tit-claw action is, in a sense, a function of the reader as much as the character, and often a function of a particular character or situation being engineered for tit-claw action. For example, Chris Claremont's endless bondage references in the X-Men and beyond. Tit-claw action a-go-go. Anatomically improbable women in skintight costumes wrestling - tit-claw ahoy.

Young Lex and his lovely suits - tit-claw free zone.

I know, it's highly subjective. In general, it's best to follow your nose. If a concept fills one's nostrils with a subconscious stench of milk, Mr. Tit and Mr. Claw may well be in the house.

[ 19-03-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Horror ]

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

12:22 / 19.03.02

quote:Originally posted by Flux = No Rock n' Roll Fun:
(by the way Haus, I altered yr altered title to make it a bit more neat and concise)

And redolent of violence against Delia Derbyshire...paging Dr. Freud, anyone?

12:40 / 19.03.02

I've noticed, on Barbelith and elsewhere, that there are two (to reduce things a lot) attitudes towards the relationship between the talent and attractiveness of musical artists (and actors, and probably novelists and comic book writers/artists as well).

One is the tendancy to talk about people who one considers very talented and whose output one likes in terms of being attracted to them - which may be because they are also physically attractive, but may not, and this is usually not the *primary* factor.

At the opposite end of the spectrum there are those people who feel that the physical attractiveness of the artist is at best a distraction, and that the world of popular music is actually hurt by being overrun by pop stars who are famous largely for their looks. – Flyboy

There is, of course, the possibility to be attracted or sexually aroused (is this what y'all mean by "tit-claw" action?) by someone without their looks being a factor – maybe I'm just weird, but looks are pretty secondary for me in general, whether it's a famous person or someone at my local pub. I get more excited by smarts 'n' skills than looks.

12:43 / 19.03.02

quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Horror:

I would suggest that your definition based around creativity falls down at the actor stage - that is surely an admiration for somebody's *skill*, or an aggregate of scripting/acting skills, rather than a reflection on "creativity" per se.

Ooh, well. I think that involves a whole other thread id est what acting involves --is it just craft, or is there artistry, actual creativity, generative capability therein? Depends a lot on the actor, of course. Anyway I am just a quasi-actor and not the true-artist sort & if any should chime in here, I would step aside.

But in truth I was not thinking that hard, I was coming more from the squishy standpoint that all human beings are creative in themselves, as opposed to characters on the page. And this creativity is the source of crush, and the ideal is to get closer to the source.

But you are not saying that, if you are comparing a spandex-clad breast to a lovely suit lapel... that means, even on the page, there are different qualities of crush & that also makes sense, intuitively. And makes creativity inapplicable.

[ 19-03-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]

Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?

13:07 / 19.03.02

Ierne - as I say, I have no idea what Carson McCullers looks like and I have a crush on her. Likewise Diomedes...as for tit-claw action - well, we are still defining it, but it is something decidedly other than mere sexual attraction.

Perseph- on the "spandex-clad breast/well-tailored suit" front - I think that the sophistication of the character is almost certainly a factor - and I know how subjective this is getting. So, for example, I would suggest that Nightcrawler (who is my huggleswoo) is not a comics character for whom crushing would be tit-claw action, or indeed the Beast (calm down, Ganesh. He can still touch bits. With his claw), as they are not actually there to be loci of sexual attraction, whereas (I fear), many female characters in comics are. By the same logic, although Young Lex is clearly sexy (and Michael Rosenbaum a god in human form - "so, Michael, did you shave your head for the audition?" "No, Andi, I didn't shave my head for the audition. I waited until I got the part before shaving off all my hair. I'm not a *moron*."), his character is not designed to be front-rank sexy, as Breast Girl's might be. For the same reason, erotic stories about Seven of Nine are in most cases tit-claw action, and slashy stories about Avon and Blake are generally not.

It's massively subjective, highly intuitive and denies intellectual categorisation - Plums would be proud of me. Essentially, for me at least, tit-claw action differs from a crush precisely because the good crush should be about jouissance, play and self-awareness (like a burly, heterosexual friend of mind turning and saying, quite nonchalantly, "I have a bit of a crush on Brad Friedel" during a football match) and fun, whereas tit-claw ation is grindingly un-self-aware, reinforces ready-made ideas about gender and sexuality, and dehumanises its subject.

[ 19-03-2002: Message edited by: The Haus of Horror ]

The Planet of Sound

13:13 / 19.03.02

Listening to Delia's Theme as I write, and it sounds suspiciously like the noises in the background in Tomb of the Cybermen. What a girl!