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Underground > Radio & Music >

dancing round your handbags...

Goodness Gracious Meme

17:00 / 19.12.01

Starting this after being at a club last weekend and noticing a really stark gender division thing going on...

Basically it was a Warp records night, ie noodly electronica/drum 'n bass/glitch (uhg), and as such the punters/dancers are usually primarily male...

But for some reason it was broadly mixed, and the DJ played a good mix of the above stuff, what sounded like 80s synth-pop and a chunk of really heavy dancehall/ragga stuff... Just great.

Anyway, point being that when he was playing the dancehall stuff, suddenly practically every woman in the place was dancing, while men rushed for the sidelines in a way I haven't seen outside of a gloria gaynor moment... and when the DJ started mixing this into jungle, the reverse happened and the boys came back, en masse...

reminded me oddly of crappy student nights where lads would stand on the sidelines all night before 'claiming' the floor for the inevitable Cypress Hill/House of Pain/Fun lovin' criminals medley (cough, splutter)

also got really interested by (massive generalisation) the different ways the different genders seemed to dance/interpret the music...

so what's going on?

09:31 / 20.12.01

Some people responding emotionally and others analytically?

Or, to put it more simply, in some the feet are led by the heart; in others, they are led by the head....

09:38 / 20.12.01

Dunno. Does sometimes seem that it has to be a) "credible" (ie. a non-"manufactured" band with "talent" and "integrity"), and b) "heavy" (ie. thumping bass, none of yer girly noodling) before "blokes" will uncurl their sneery upper lips and venture forth. Women, in ge-e-eneral, seem to care less about the artistic integrity and more about the dancing itself.

Gay men don't really care. They just concentrate on getting out of their faces, shirts and, eventually, their pants.

09:48 / 20.12.01

[thread rot]

Originally posted by Ganesh:

Gay men don't really care. They just concentrate on getting out of their faces, shirts and, eventually, their pants.

Ooh, you keep your socks on?

What a lovely image....

09:48 / 20.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Not Me Again:
Ooh, you keep your socks on?

Yep. Relatively oversized ones.

Red Cross Iodized Salt

09:48 / 20.12.01

One possible explanation (and two potentially gross generalizations) is that most teenage girls just wanna have fun when they go out, whereas their male counterparts are concerned with looking ‘cool’. Maybe the boys at the Warp show were still caught up in that dynamic - somehow managing to overlook the fact that dancing your ass off can be both fun and cool even if the music doesn’t have your immediate peer group’s seal of approval. I remember reading an article that cited this as the driving force behind the rapid rise of UK (nee speed) Garage. A lot of girls got bored with moody drum+bass nights and started going to clubs where they could actually dance again...only to be followed there by all the boys.

The crappy student night analogy is the best one I can think of...remember what nightclubs / discos were like before ecstasy?

The Natural Way

09:48 / 20.12.01

I fucking love ragga. That's my contribution, and I'm sticking by it. The latest Warp release is a ragga tune, by the way.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:48 / 20.12.01

Reminds me of the lines in Le Tigre's 'LT Tour Theme':

"Yeah you know the guys with the digi-cameras?
Push to the front and then they just stand there?
But then we see the girls walking towards the dance floor
And we remember why we come on tour..."

Er... I don't have any intelligent thoughts of my own right now.

10:37 / 20.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Vote for Iron Man Wang:
their male counterparts are concerned with looking ‘cool’. Maybe the boys at the Warp show were still caught up in that dynamic - somehow managing to overlook the fact that dancing your ass off can be both fun and cool even if the music doesn’t have your immediate peer group’s seal of approval.

hmm...me and plumsbitch always end up chatting about this when we go dancing. i used to be one of those annoying people who laughed at the "daft" way other people (most usually blokes) danced -- not to anyone's face, just to myself. now, it makes me really really happy just to see people loosen up and dance. because the less self-conscious you are about dancing, usually the "better" a dancer you are. once you focus on the rhythm and not whether your arse is sticking out and your arms are coordinated in exact synch, you'll find that, actually, your arse doesn't stick out that much, and your arms are waving in time to the music...

of course, if you're dancing to ragga, you probably want your arse to stick out.

interesting though how both ragga and miami bass are HUGELY popular amonsgt women -- at least when it comes to dancing. the lyrics are insanely offensive, usually misogynistic or homophobic or both, but the music is fantastic to grind to.

Red Cross Iodized Salt

23:50 / 20.12.01

Well, they do say that women respond to bass. Apparently frequencies in the range of 63Hz down to 57Hz start to...um..do things.

No star here laces

09:12 / 24.12.01

I love this stuff - it's something I'm always amused by, and frequently exploit while DJing. At the end of the day, the girls win - any DJ worth his salt tries to get the girls on the floor first, as the boys always follow...

Basically music broadly splits in three with respect to the genders and sexualities.

On the one hand you have music like R&B, ragga, 80s pop, vocal house and disco.

On the other hand you have jungle, trance, techno, punk, ruff hip hop and 60s pop.

In the middle you have really good hip hop, funk, 70s pop and roots reggae.

The first group is highly sexualised music. Straight men don't want to dance to this unless they have an obvious partner as they are not happy being viewed as sexual objects nor with being overtly sexual in behaviour without an obvious target of this behaviour.

The second group is overtly de-sexualised music. Men love this - they can get off their faces and dance to it in a competitive manner - who is moshing hardest, who is acting toughest, who can dance fastest.

The middle group is safe and gender-neutral. It has a sexual element in the rhythm, but not too overtly, and can be interpreted in a non-sexual manner.

As ganesh pointed out, none of this is particularly relevant to gay clubs, which is probably why they always have the best music. Gays are usually unencumbered by these crapulous gender boundaries and will just dance to whatever is played...

That sounds really down on straight guys, but isn't meant to be. Firstly, straight guys just aren't good at dancing sexually unless it's with a partner. This is probably because, secondly, society doesn't condition straight guys to see themselves as sexual objects, only the pursuers of sexual objects. Probably why strip clubs are so successful and so gratifying - they provide the experience of women dancing sexually, and allow the male to interact with the sexually dancing female, without requiring him to dance sexually himself. Money acts as a proxy for male sexuality (as it unfortunately frequently does in the outside world as well...)

Feel free to disagree, this probably looks like me indulging my personal musical prejudices under the guise of making a point about gender roles...

uncle retrospective

17:47 / 25.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:
[QB]
The second group is overtly de-sexualised music. Men love this - they can get off their faces and dance to it in a competitive manner - who is moshing hardest, who is acting toughest, who can dance fastest.
[QB]

I'm not sure about this statment at all. As a firm member of this group I find the best thing about the de-sexualised nature of the music is the lack of poseing. You throw your own shapes and who cares who's watching. The death of ego on the dance floor.

Mabye it's just me but there is no contest involved on the floor.
Just self gratifcation.

20:01 / 25.12.01

Maybe I'm missing the point, but are you... serious?

Do you really think that, as your post seems to imply, posing is an objective quality, so that any particular act is either posing or not; that dancing to 'sexualised' music is automatically posing; that men don't like to pose; that women do; that the desire not to be seen to be posing has nothing to do with wanting to look hard or tough; and that you are able to be completely objective about your own (and your gender in general's) motivations?

uncle retrospective

20:55 / 25.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Dread Pirate Crunchy:
Maybe I'm missing the point

I think you are, I would never clam to speak for my gender, (I've never been that sure of myself) I'm saying I like egoless/sexless music because the clubs that play them tend not to be meat markets. People go to have a dance and not on some frantic hunt to copulate.

Neither am I calling girls posers.

That post was about my ideas and nothing else.

you are able to be completely objective about your own motivations?

Yes. I am very sure about my motives on this. I like no bulshit dancing.
Is that so weird?

09:04 / 26.12.01

I am suspicious of the claim that anyone can be objective about their own motivations. Especially where dense, complex webs of social meaning - around, say, the gendered dynamics of dancing, the body, sexualisation, posing, and truth, all of which have accrued in your two posts - are reduced to simple on/off, yes/no, 'no bullshit' positions.

uncle retrospective

09:10 / 26.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Dread Pirate Crunchy:
I am suspicious of the claim that anyone can be objective about their own motivations.

Ok, I see you point but can you accent that I like jumping up and down to loud music cause of the adrenilein rush I get from it?

Sometimes it's just a cigar.

09:21 / 26.12.01

You know, I really don't think you see my point. Note, I am not saying this is your fault, I am obviously not communicating it.

Why would you want to reduce the whole weird array of movements, feelings, chemicals, social expectations, genders, sexualities, rhythms, space, tension, excitement, etc., to 'just a cigar'?

I'm all for jumping up and down; I'm against the assumption that anyone dancing another way is posing. Which I assume you don't actually think, but you did imply.

I don't know why we're arguing. Yes I do; I haven't had coffee yet this morning. Will go fix that.

uncle retrospective

09:31 / 26.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Dread Pirate Crunchy:

I'm all for jumping up and down; I'm against the assumption that anyone dancing another way is posing.

I'm not getting my point over well either by the looks of things (It's late and I'm wercked) I'm not saying that any other type of dancing is poseing.
What I'm trying to say is I prefere to avoid clubs/scenes where how you look is the number one issue.

Why would you want to reduce the whole weird array of movements, feelings, chemicals, social expectations, genders, sexualities, rhythms, space, tension, excitement, etc., to 'just a cigar'?

Now that you point it out, maybe not. I always just assumed it was fun to go out dancing. I never real broke it down. I gave up hellish introspection as it made me a miserable bastard.

09:50 / 26.12.01

quote: What I'm trying to say is I prefere to avoid clubs/scenes where how you look is the number one issue.

There's another kind?

uncle retrospective

09:56 / 26.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Dread Pirate Crunchy:

What I'm trying to say is I prefere to avoid clubs/scenes where how you look is the number one issue.

There's another kind?

Boy do we not go out with the same agenda or to the same kind of clubs.
Give me a good PA, a non threating venue and good tunes, anything else isn't that important. Just the fun.
Maybe I'm just an easly pleased man.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:56 / 26.12.01

Sounds like you are: but I do think there is this tendency amongst people who go to indie/rock/etc type club nights to assume that people who go to house/dance/etc club nights are more concerned about how they and others look and less into the music. Not necessarily true, at all...

I dunno though, I do take issue with some of the styles of music Lyra to which assigns certain kinds of dancing (and the way people of different genders/sexualities react to them). For example I think it's ridiculous to think that 80s pop is more sexualised than 60s pop... it depends on more factors than that, like venue, make up of the clientele, etc...

Oh, and I see no contradiction between being able to go out dancing just cos it's fun and yet being able to see the "dense, complex webs of social meaning" that Crunchy talks about... I would go on about what a good time I had dancing to a wide range including The Strokes, Destiny's Child, Basement Jaxx and The Pogues in some tiny attic (called The Attic, no less) last night, but that's kind of off-topic and just me indulging myself. And anyway, time for bed...

uncle retrospective

09:56 / 26.12.01

quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:
[QB]Sounds like you are: but I do think there is this tendency amongst people who go to indie/rock/etc type club nights to assume that people who go to house/dance/etc club nights are more concerned about how they and others look and less into the music. Not necessarily true, at all...
[QB]

I agree with what your saying, My take on the whole is of an indie/rock ect type who has taken this ethos over to the clubs.
I have always be talking about my view points here.

Now I'm going to bed before I die of lack of sleep.

The Natural Way

07:52 / 28.12.01

I've totally got the whole sex thing from techno (and jungle). Many hyper-turned-on moments on the dancefloor.... sexy, sexy, bang, bang.... And I've seen women get the whole sex thing, too.

Another one of Lyra's lovely little models... Awww....

Goodness Gracious Meme

11:39 / 28.12.01

Interesting gender split, Ty, and as you say, it does pretty much look like, 'music i like'='sexy, sensual'and therefore female/gay, music I don't='competitve and therefore craply straight male.

And you just know I'm going to argue with that, as someone who loves dancing to Dancehall, Jungle, Drum 'n Bass, Electro and stuff like Autechre, Cylob because they've got interesting rhythmns...

Think I like this sort of stuff because it tends to contain various different speeds/tempos thus making it interesting for me to move my body to... eg love the way with jungle you can 'float' along with the melodies/basslines, or leap up and down over the beats.... and moving my body in interesting ways is something that locks into feeling sexy... As well as the fact that crowds dont' tend to dance uniformly, you'll see all sorts of stuff going on..

babbling but think i'm saying its a lot more complicated, as Crunchyboy has pointed out, than bump 'n grind=sex music=music for girls...

No star here laces

14:13 / 04.01.02

Yeah, but on the other hand you just played straight into my hands by giving an intellectual ('they have interesting rhythms') justification for liking those styles.

I guess to qualify my point more, the music I'm categorising as sexual does tend to involve a more sexual type of dancing - win'ing and bogling for dancehall, for example, rather than saying there is no sexual intent in the music - Easy E has very sexual lyrics, but the way you dance to his music wouldn't tend to be...

But it's probably more a confidence thing - people who are confident about dancing and being sexual publicly tend to not mind dancing to smoother more undulating grooves, that's why girls, older guys and gay guys like 'em more. Boys, especially younger ones, tend to prefer stiffer dance movements as these are less sexually ambiguous ('I'm not a poof, me') and easier to do, thus more suitable to the less physically confident.

Not a diss, honest...

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:27 / 04.01.02

quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:
Yeah, but on the other hand you just played straight into my hands by giving an intellectual ('they have interesting rhythms') justification for liking those styles.

There's a weird body/mind split you've got going on here, Lyra old son... I don't see why 'interesting rhythms' is seen as an 'intellectual' response at all. The best rhythms on, say, the new Timbaland and Wu-Tang albums make my brain think "wow! damn!" at the same time as they're making me bob my head/move my shoulders/arse almost involuntarily even when I'm not in a club... You can have both at the same time, as I've tried to say above.

No star here laces

14:30 / 04.01.02

aii, fair cop guv, I didn't really think before I posted that 'un. Rest of it's reasonable tho, in't it?

Goodness Gracious Meme

15:03 / 11.01.02

Ty: hmm, things like dancehall, lover's rock, come to that, have an explicit sexual appeal, but to claim that the stuff i'm flagging appeals to straight guys because it 'requires' stiff dancing is way oversimplifying things and is tosh, frankly...

Who doesn't feel sexy dancing to music that they like? Consciously or not? isn't this one of the functions of dancing to stuff you like in public spaces (or if that's too intellectual for you, moving body and having fun=feeling good about body=sexy) Having danced and seen people dancing to what you'd call 'hard' or straight music like techno, drum and bass, warp, there's a feeling of getting into your body that I and a lot of people seem to get from dancing frenetically, which to me equals sexy just as much as a session of bump n grind.

That's [i]why[i/] I focussed on the rhythmns, not because i'm busy working out the time sig.s with my laptop!