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Underground > Radio & Music >

WTF is "math rock"?

12:44 / 09.12.01

I was looking for some tunes on www.epitonic.com (which is quite good BTW) and it has a section called "math rock".

Precisely what is "math rock"? Rock for people who liked maths in school? Rock for people who liked maths now? Rock carefully formulated using abstruse formulae? WHAT???

i'm downloading some, but at (nominal) 56k it could be a while, so somebody help me please

The Return Of Rothkoid

19:34 / 09.12.01

Math Rock always puts me in mind of bands like The Jesus Lizard and Shellac, I guess. Sort of edgy, unpredictable-in-a-"run-by-theory"-way. And quite angry. Always angry.

20:00 / 09.12.01

I always thought it meant Stereolab, Tortoise sort of stuff - slow, evenly paced, carefully drained of all energy or intensity. Like, rock that's about as interesting as quadratic equations.

20:01 / 09.12.01

Are you sure they don't mean "meth rock?"

09:14 / 10.12.01

Tortoise is indeed one of the big names in math rock, but it's not called that because it's tedious -- it's called "math rock" because it runs on odd time signatures. We're so used to hearing things in fours, sixes and eights, that when you hit a five- or seven- beat progression, it feels like a bit of an extra jolt or a malfunctioning machine part.
Fugazi uses the trick sometimes, too. So does Jawbox, if I remember right.
The Pixies occasionally slide into three, but it's never the pattern for a whole song.
One of my favorite math rock bands (from back when it was a genre on mp3.com) was Idiot Savant Garde -- especially the song "Secret Stars". Check 'em out.

09:14 / 10.12.01

StephenHawkingGoSound!

Mathrock is a non-specific/ indiscriminate genre term for at least some aspects of the ever-growing post-rock community. Theoretically it might best describe the post-hardcore & pre-grunge sound first defined by Big Black, Fugazi, Slint and Bastro, and carried on by acts as diverse as Codeine, Tortoise, Seam, Mogwai and Godspeed. I can even hear some of its influence in Kid A.

These are bands that don’t rely solely on the rock standards of groove/ lick/ riff/ beat, but on temporal and tonal colouration, using repetition, analogue static, spastic thrash and controlled silence – as well as convulsive changes in rhythm, volume or frequency - to implement new forms and drive change in what was back then an increasingly stolid hardcore sound.

As a term “mathrock” would seem to support what its detractors see as anaemic, studied and distant music, but doesn’t convey the full spectrum of emotional sound the term encompasses (from Big Black’s visceral frenzy to Fridge’s malfunctioning onomatopoeia). If you want to hear more, I recommend that you pick up/ download the figurehead post/math album, Slint’s awesome Spiderland, then head for Tortoise and Big Black.

09:14 / 10.12.01

I was waiting for someone to mention Slint. I couldnt think of a better example.

09:14 / 10.12.01

I've had 'Spiderland' on my 'to get' list for longer than I can remember..

While we're at it though, what the devil is 'post-hardcore' supposed to signify?

Where did the 'post-' come from?
Why is it used to describe bands who have little or no connection with normal 'hardcore'?

And let's not even get started on 'emo'...

10:52 / 10.12.01

The definitive post-core band is Quicksand which is composed of more high profile 80s hardcore band members than you can shake a stick at. Post-core was the introduction of downtempo, and songs with more breakdowns. Slip is a shining example.

Locust No longer

17:01 / 10.12.01

Slint is awesome, and come to think of it, so is Shellac. I guess I really like math rock by that definition.

20:24 / 10.12.01

quote: While we're at it though, what the devil is 'post-hardcore' supposed to signify?

Where did the 'post-' come from?
Why is it used to describe bands who have little or no connection with normal 'hardcore'?

I know, I know. The problem with using these definitions is that they overlap and interrelate so much that they become meaningless. I think that I’m trying to communicate both the period in time and the distinct sounds made by these bands.

Really I see hardcore as being in the DK, Minor Threat, Flipper, Bad Brains, Black Flag late punk kinda vibe.
Post-hardcore would then include bands like Minutemen, Husker Du, Swans, Live Skull, Dinosaur, Big Black, Sonic Youth, Fugazi and that whole classic early “grunge” sound (for want of a more suitable word) which would eventually go on (in part) to become elements of post-rock (Slint, Tortoise, Codeine, Bitch Magnet).

In other words, post hardcore means nothing more than they came out of, and after, the original hardcore sound. I’m not trying to create a new idiom or genre here, it’s just a horribly contrived and appallingly generalized term for a period on the musical timeline.

Matthew Fluxington

20:34 / 10.12.01

Um, Tortoise is not a math rock band, they are a 'post rock' band, get it together, man!

Mathrock: The Fucking Champs, Chavez, Shellac, Shudder To Think in the middle of their weird, weird career, Don Cabellero...

"Math Rock" is a weird thing, cos at the core of its definition is using odd time signatures, but anything using odd time signatures isn't math rock, per se. It's a sound, and it usually rocks very hard and is very angular sounding... There's an overlap between math rock and post rock, and its so nebulous. RedRunningLord seems to be describing 'post-rock' more than he is 'math rock'.

Post-Rock gets into a weird area of defintion too, cos a lot of it is just crappy instrumental music that sounds like it's meant for bad art films, while other things in the post-rock zone are truly adventurous and experimental musics that really fuck with how guitar/bass/keyboard/drum/vocal music can be arranged, performed and recorded (see: Joan Of Arc, Gastr Del Sol, Les Savy Fav, Avey Tare & Panda Bear, current Radiohead).

I can tell you this: most of the music which gets called postrock or mathrock is really fucking dull, extremely dry and free of passion...

However if you want to get a really great "math rock" record, I say pick up either Chavez's Gone Glimmering or Shudder To Think's Pony Express Record. Both are top notch records.
That Shudder To Think record is probably one of the finest guitar records of the 90s, in my opinion. It's really amazing.

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = Rad ]