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Etiquette

 
 
No star here laces
21:54 / 29.01.02
Well, what about it darling sweetums?

We've been over it before, but everyone seems to have forgotten, or come along since the last time or whatever.

Etiquette is not 'rules'. But a set of guidelines for behaviour is a basic feature of even the most rudimentary communities and as such might be worth discussing. I might also suggest that one of the responsibilities that comes with having been in a place like this longer than others is to demonstrate a reasonable level of etiquette, otherwise you can't expect newcomers to repay you in kind. If people think the place is all about creative insults and backbiting, then that's exactly what the future will hold.

Anyway, a suggestion for a few simple things we might do.

1) Make a distinction between serious and frivolous threads.

2) In frivolous threads anything goes - be insulting, disparaging, dismissive - these threads do not concern things that people hold dear. If something comes up in a frivolous thread that raises a serious issue, start a new thread about it.

3) In serious threads do not insult people. Argue with their opinion, but don't call them stupid, accuse them of criminal acts or criticise their spelling and grammar.

4) If you reach an impasse in an argument or feel that someone you are arguing with is not behaving reasonably, this is not a cue for the discussion to degenerate into hair-pulling. Just walk away.

5) Assume positive intent. Sounds hippy I know, but is actually a good way to ensure productive discussion. Assume someone has said what they have said in an attempt to be productive and to engage, rather than attributing it to base motives.

6) Please, please, enough already with the threads started up with the specific intention of insulting or humiliating a particular poster. It's fucking pathetic.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Lyra Lovelaces ]
 
 
angel
11:49 / 30.01.02
Yo! What Lyra said!
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:23 / 30.01.02
No!!! Lyra smells of wee!!!

But in the case of six, there was a specific reason...
 
 
Sauron
16:25 / 30.01.02
Do we need rules?
 
 
moriarty
16:28 / 30.01.02
Even if we needed them, would they stick?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:33 / 30.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:
Well, what about it fuckos?


quote:
3) In serious threads do not insult people. Argue with their opinion, but don't call them stupid, accuse them of criminal acts or criticise their spelling and grammar.


It's an insidious test. By Lyra's own rules, this is not a serious thread so have at it 'Fuckos'.
 
 
SMS
01:17 / 31.01.02
Thanks, Lyra.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
05:08 / 31.01.02
Kinda makes sense to me. (Cos, to paraphrase Bill Hicks, only on Barbelith does common courtesy have to be legislated).
 
 
No star here laces
06:58 / 31.01.02
Well, that's why I called it 'etiquette' and not rules. Rules implies enforcement - these are subtler issues. I just feel it would be good if we could agree to basically treat each other in a certain way, not on pain of being thrown off the board or anything like that, but at least so that there was some sort of standard of behaviour that could be upheld. At the moment there is far too much pot... kettle shit going on.
 
 
No star here laces
12:14 / 31.01.02
Lothar's post is sorta interesting actually. I don't consider that fuckos thing to be an insult, where as if I called him a self-obsessed mystical obfuscator with the debating level of a pre-schooler then it would be... (not that I am calling you that, Lothar)

KnowhatImean?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
12:31 / 31.01.02
While I see your point Lyra, I doubt most people would feel comfortable calling people they barely know 'fuckos' to their faces.

My reason for focusing on that was that by starting your thread off that way it put this thread in the same antagonistic '*you* all are fucking up and *I'm* here to remind you how to act' mindset that you are arguing against.

I agree with the intent of your post so I'll leave it at that and apologize for getting hung up on the way you delivered it.
 
 
Sauron
13:12 / 31.01.02
Lothar, you're betraying your American roots and being very British; don't apologise for the sake of it. I'd hope that everyone should be able to feel the boundaries without being told them. If they go too far, each case should be dealt with on its own merits. Tom seems to be able to perfectly judge when people have crossed the line and can deal with it with a compelling lightness of touch. PS Tom, if you're still looking for some work, why not become one of those new fangled super headmasters? You would rock.

[ 31-01-2002: Message edited by: Sauron ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:22 / 31.01.02
That's a terrible idea for *so* many reasons...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:51 / 31.01.02
Is it me, or did half this topic just go up in smoke?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:46 / 31.01.02
Sniping and/or "mea-culpa"-s aside, this is a pretty good idea. Who wants to help thrash out a voluntary code of conduct for 'lithers?

(And don't call me 'fucko', dipstick. )
 
 
bio k9
07:48 / 01.02.02
Does anyone really think that people are going to start showing others respect and/or common courtsey just because some folks here make up a set of guidelines? People that already act in a civilized way will look at the list and say "Yeah, OK" and everyone else will look at it and say "Yeah, whatever...SUCK MY MOTHERFUCKING COCK!"
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
08:28 / 01.02.02
In effect, what BioK9 said. I think these are actually more contentious than they appear.

1) and 2) are pretty good, but will struggle with the fact that different posters will have *very* differednt ideas what consitutes a "serious" thread unless there is a formal and acknowledged distinction.

For example, Ice Honkey posted a thread some time ago asking if people shaved their pubic hair. Is that serious or frivolous? I suspect different people would have different ideas.

3) Basically good, notwithstanding the problems of (1) and (2). But again, not mentioning any recent events, some people will regard a disagreement with their opinions *as* a personal attack, and react accordingly. Others will not.

4) Again, theoretically a very good plan, but it sounds a bit like the "just rise above it" injunctions delivered by middle-class parents to their profusely-bleeding progeny. As Mordant Carnival points out, silence can seem like acquiescence or condoning of a perosn, and in the face of virulent sledging or the above-mentioned personal insults, is it fair to demand that the "good" i.e. code-of-conduct-following posters just soak it up with a smile?

5) and 6) I think are very good ideas indeed, although in both cases I can see demarcation issues arising.

So...yeah. How can you ensure a level playing field, except by the sort of heavy moderation which some boards have opted for, or by everybody being of one mind to start with?

I'm not sure it's doable...
 
 
No star here laces
08:28 / 01.02.02
Well, I'll level, a lot of this comes out of my deep uneasiness about the way that trolls in general, and the Knodge in particular get treated here.

Just because someone says stupid things and acts like a prick isn't, to me, reason enough to systematically insult and humiliate them.

And I just think that if you want to take the moral high ground and complain about the behaviour of the trolls, then you do have to prove yourself superior to that, hackneyed as it sounds. To be shitty to them is to validate that sort of behaviour, I honestly believe.

Fine, have a laugh about 'em in PMs or emails or even in person down the pub. But to do it publicly on the board in a way that appears to have the approval of everyone on here leaves a really sour taste in my mouth, and isn't something that I like being party to.

Clearly sometimes people deeply overstep the mark and start to be a cause for concern, but I think that this mostly only happens because we respond in kind and bait them. Similarly, of course all people aren't always going to get on, and there's a lot of enjoyment to be had from arguing, but it should be kept on an individual level and not feel like it's the whole board venting disapproval on an individual who doesn't fit some criteria of acceptability.
 
 
alas
08:28 / 01.02.02
even having read haus' concerns, i think lyra's initial draft etiquette guidelines are worthwhile--just to post this thread says let's try to hammer out as a community some basic ideas about communication.

anger is going to happen. even reasonable people are still going to react in anger, shoot off an angry message, and a chain of counter-over-reactions will threaten to ensue. i overreacted to bill posters this week. he reacted angrily, and was justified. i apologized, so did he, and now we're the best of friends, probably taking a quick trip to mallorca together in a week's time...

(although i was a bit surprised by the term fuckos, i read it as a term of endearment. guess i am even more of a masochist than i thought. yipes.)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:24 / 01.02.02
I think there's a feeling that this is a safe zone for unusual viewpoints...
 
 
SMS
03:18 / 02.02.02
quote:Originally posted by biomagnetic k9:
Does anyone really think that people are going to start showing others respect and/or common courtsey just because some folks here make up a set of guidelines? People that already act in a civilized way will look at the list and say "Yeah, OK" and everyone else will look at it and say "Yeah, whatever...SUCK MY MOTHERFUCKING COCK!"


If I'm not mistaken, Haus has violated a few of these rules. Haus, despite your misgivings, do you think that having these guidelines in place might have any effect on your posting at all?
 
  
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