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The Critics of Tomorrow?

 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
19:28 / 04.09.01
"It's gonna suck for the next Nirvana or whatever 'cool' rock band comes along in about ten years from now. The next generation of critics are being raised on 'N Sync and Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys. Their measurement of quality is going to be different. It's going to be interesting to see the next Nirvana blasted for not having a big stage show."
-Justin Timberlake

So..... is he self-deluded, or on to something? Maybe a little of both?
 
 
agapanthus
22:47 / 04.09.01
Flux=the grapefruit is winning wrote:
quote:It's going to be interesting to see the next Nirvana blasted for not having a big stage show."
-Justin Timberlake
So..... is he self-deluded, or on to something? Maybe a little of both?

Is this cat Britney Spears' fella? What a selr-referential twat.As if the critics of tomorrow would agree that popular (the holy trio of Britney, NSYNC & Backstreet Boys) = acclaimed.
Bowie, Kiss and Alice Cooper, pioneered the mega stage show around 30 years ago. Bowie is probably the only act of these three that deserves acclaim, and then, in relation to his stage shows, only because of the intelligence, theactricality and gender politics that he presented.
Anyway, I hope the critics of tomorrow are still seeing bands in intimate, small venues, where nuance reigns, and you can see the performers' eyes.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:08 / 04.09.01
Pfft. As if 'the critics of tomorrow' are even going to see live music.
 
 
Dee Vapr
23:59 / 04.09.01
Timberlake is a myopic twat.
 
 
Cop Killer
04:10 / 05.09.01
But weren't the critics that loved Nirvana raised on Journey and that ilk?

I think Alice Cooper rocks and deserves plenty of acclaim...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
08:12 / 05.09.01
Yeh. And Trent Reznor was raised on lots of Pink Floyd, too. It's fairly safe to assume that people aren't just going to hold the values of the music that's around when they're growing up as being the be-all and end-all, are they? People's tastes tend to move around a bit; if they didn't, I'd still be bitching every time an album that wasn't Rick Astley came out.

That said, though, a big stage show can go a long way to helping dire music out. As Timberlake probably knows first-hand.
 
 
rizla mission
08:16 / 05.09.01
That quote is clearly dumb.
 
 
autopilot disengaged
10:04 / 05.09.01
(shudder) just had vision of the boy timber actually being right: not pleasant:

"...although the 7skullz certainly produce the most incredible fusion of computer-generated sounds and biorhythmic energy yet seen by the infomedia biz - as well as layering subliminal philosophy into every track, and mercilessly deconstructing the infomedia scene as we know it...y'know, this critic can't help but wonder where the good, old-fashioned days of non-threatening pop went - a tune the whole family could enjoy, a stage show that cost about the same as most charities manage in a year..."

(in the future sentences will run and run...)
 
 
mondo a-go-go
12:07 / 05.09.01
what bollocks. the current generation of critics was raised on commercial pop music too -- boy bands like wham! and duran duran and manufactured pop like stock aitken & waterman. before that it was all the cheesypop disco and glam bands in the 70s, before that it was manufactured girl and boy bands in the 50s and 60s. hell, manufactured single-gender pop groups goes back to the first recorded music for fuck's sake.

as for stage shows, a bit of flash lighting might impress when you're a kid, but as an adult, often what will impress more is musical and lyrical talent. so, you only listen to computer-generated disco knowck-offs, you're gonna be disappointed when they go to perform an acoustic set for a "new direction" and can't pull it off, aintcha?
 
 
rizla mission
12:13 / 05.09.01
Thanks kooky, that's precisely what I wanted to say, except I couldn't summon up the energy to string the words together.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
12:54 / 05.09.01
Okay, okay, okay... it's clear that ego has made an ass of Mr. Timberlake.

but what I was thinking when I said "he may be on to something" is the notion that the critics of tomorrow will very likely be looking at music in a MUCH different way than those who are involved in the practice today... this doesn't have to mean that teen pop and mooky rap rock will be informing everyone's opinions, so much as the cultural environment of music as a small part of larger entertainment ventures...you can already see it in the way music is written about in magazines aimed at (and often made by) young people, in how a tendency to reflect on the marketplace and sales history of an artist is part of a record review. I see it in people my age who write about music in a way that sounds as though they are reciting corporate tag lines and plagiarizing the artist's press release/ad campaign. I see it in how my 13 year old brother and other kids I know who are his age look at rock music in a way that I can't quite understand much less explain... I think that more and more kids are raised to see popularity and conformity as virtues...it's part of a larger cultural phenomenon of this strange highly conservative generation that's being brought up in America..this generation of Clinton-esque people with a passionate love of capitalism and entertainment commerce, mostly quite multi-cultural and tolerant in terms of social issues, but still quite conservative on those issues all the same...

I see the point that Kooky et al are trying to make, that commercial pop has been around before and it didn't shape anyone's taste too much before... but consider that it's not just the teen pop kids who are involved in gross commercialism now...think about how in the US now, it's become a big thing to have your first hit break because it was in some ad or tv show or movie...that more and more, doing things like that is less and less considered cheesy by the average person...it's a fact of life, it's the way the system works these days. A lot of the ideas that created a sense of elitism in the snobby non-popular music realm are being eroded in kids at a young age, so its possible that for lots of people the ideas that drove punk/post punk/DIY for example could be questioned on the onset, and considered in a very different way... the people of tomorrow may not be quite so reverent to the old ideas. which might not be such a bad thing...it all depends, really.

So, letting Mr. Timberlake's selfaborbtion slide a bit, do you think that he may be right in that the expections and understanding of music and its history that people growing up now may be something really quite odd and change the way music and other artistic criticism will be in a noticeable way that differs from the late 20th century model?

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: Flux = the grapefruit is winning ]
 
 
Dee Vapr
13:04 / 05.09.01
Any pro music journalist worth his salt has a clear sense of history, and diversity about music as a whole.

Maybe Timberlake has a point about the changing viewpoints in the letter's page of Smash Hits, but that's about all.

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: Dee Vapr ]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
13:13 / 05.09.01
Well, what do you make of the music of folks like Britney, N Sync, Destiny's Child et al being taken quite seriously by a lot of respectable music critics, which often happens to be intense acclaim?

I'm not saying that people will be unaware or ignorant of the history aspect of criticism so much as that their understanding and viewpoint on it may be quite a lot different...things may look different in the perspective of people who may not sympathize with punk/indie ethos, and so on and so forth. History is always re-written by the winners, you know...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:53 / 05.09.01
Destiny's Child is totally worth taking seriously. And N-Sync's single "pop" was produced by the Neptunes, the hip-hop flavor du jour.

Or how about something like Missy elliot produced cover of "Lady Marmalade"? Totally sung by disposable pop heroines, totally kick ass like Missy's solo work.

The reason more attention is being payed to pop artists is the high quality of some of their material. The same people who are creating the edgier, artier work the critics traditionally gravitate toward are creating much of the pop stuff as well.

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: todd ]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
15:36 / 05.09.01
Hey man, I completely agree with re: the quality of the aforementioned music. I was just countering Dee Vapr...

I get a lot of enjoyment out of that Destiny's Child LP especially...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
16:06 / 05.09.01
They totally peaked with Independent Woman though. The singles "survivor" and "bootylicious", aside from the felicitous mainstreaming of the latter term, are unmitigated crap.

Their greatest impact may only be felt in a decade or longer, as a generation of children named "Beyonce" grow up and begin to run things...
 
 
autopilot disengaged
16:14 / 05.09.01
i forget the figures/ratio, but it's now apparently true that PR people outnumber journalists more than two to one.

there is a propaganda war being fought across an increasingly globalized and corporate entertainment culture.

and this time, it's for yr hearts & minds.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
16:20 / 05.09.01
Man, I love that song "Bootylicious". Wow. That, and "Independent Women Pt. 2" and "Happy Face"...

I've read about that PR to journalists ratio too, and I should add that so many journalists are puppets of PR/lazy rehashers of press releases that they may as well not be counted in the journalists camp, creating a greater divide...
 
 
jUne, a sunshiny month
18:16 / 05.09.01
shit shit shit you people kill me.
yeah, i'm buying loads of vinyl and cd, burn a lot, mp3ing also, and i was thinking i got so much stuff to discover and listen to that i'll stay away for a looooooong time from all these commercial stuff.
well, u know what ?
i had to, it was written, i couldn't do anything against it...
... i bought Destiny's Child CD.
cause it's HUGE ! production reach peaks here. it's big. uhhh.
and after many weeks about playing it too mnay times, at last, i was able to put it off my mind...

...until today ! you suck, you suck, you SUCK!
 
 
Dee Vapr
19:24 / 05.09.01
Flux, I completely agree with you re: the relative merits of these early 21st century pop acts. I still don't think knowledge of pop acts would become the entire frame of reference for a future music journalist tho.

I'm just being incredulous.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
19:51 / 05.09.01
I wonder if I'm just being too vague or just plain inarticulate here...

I don't think it's that these sort of acts will become a singular frame of reference for anyone, anyone at all... but rather that the economics behind them - something that becomes more and more foregrounded in the discussion of these artists in the press all of the time - is becoming that frame of reference. That for people who are growing up now, and in the near future, capitalism, PR, marketing, and show business are becoming harder and harder to separate from music and artistry. This is what I think Timberlake was getting at... that in a time when people are raised to appreciate the smoke & mirrors as well as how those smoke & mirrors are crafted, then marketed and sold, something as raw and relatively unpretentious as pure punk rock or similarly democratic/anarchic musics ("the next Nirvana") may seem somewhat lacking to a great many people. Or incredibly refreshing. It all depends...
 
 
autopilot disengaged
09:13 / 06.09.01
i think what you're saying, flux (correct me if i'm wrong) - is that the music industry will at long last succeed in killing pop culture.

or to be more accurate - do an EdGein - kill it then dance around in its skin.

...this is a horrible vision you have set before us.
 
 
Cop Killer
09:13 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = the grapefruit is winning:
think about how in the US now, it's become a big thing to have your first hit break because it was in some ad or tv show or movie...
[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: Flux = the grapefruit is winning ]


Eh, that's only if you're Moby...
 
 
deletia
09:13 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = the grapefruit is winning:
"It's gonna suck for the next Nirvana or whatever 'cool' rock band comes along in about ten years from now. The next generation of critics are being raised on 'N Sync and Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys. Their measurement of quality is going to be different. It's going to be interesting to see the next Nirvana blasted for not having a big stage show."


Actually, the odd thing is that, were it not for the scarequotes around "cool", this would function as a kind of cri de coeur for the travails of alternative music.

But it turns out Timberlake is just being a twatstick.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
13:24 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Cop Killer:


Eh, that's only if you're Moby...


no way! that goes for lots and lots and lots of artists who are coming up through the corporate ranks right now. Just the other day I heard a video on MTV and was confused, because it was the song that's been in all the adverts for the WB's new season, and I didn't realize that it WASN'T written as a jingle.
 
 
agapanthus
23:45 / 06.09.01
Flux, kudos for staying with your topic and expanding/ explaining your point.
While Timberflake may be little more than a corporate music machine vessell, its the fact that he is so imbued with the hubris and values of said machine that makes his prophecy interesting.

I agree that the critics of tomorrow will be reared on corporate, over technologised, bombastic empty spectacle, just as I was reared on Neil Diamond's "Hot August Night", Abba's "Arrival", Alan Parson's project, Elton John & Kikki Dee, The Police, Talking Heads, Gang of Four, Captain Beefheart, Miles Davis, Stevie Wonder, Jackson 5 ...
But musical culture is so fluid, quick, diffuse - it finds ways into the ears and minds of people everywhere passing through the most obvious and venal of media, and more importantly also through the small fissures and cracks of global capital.
Overground and underground - mainstream and creeks - centre and margins. I think that independent (i.e. non-major record co.),creative music and musicians will always exist, while there is the cultural space for the 'teenage' and the 'post-teenage'.
(I've been thinking about this concept recently: global capital wants to produce the perpetual teenage subject - confused, looking for adult badges, hardly responsible, disposable income to burn, prone to fads/fashion, the old can be sold as new, surface over depth - not that these aspects are without worth, and they pretty much sum up how I live most of my days, but that global capital wants to limit us to these narrow identities, practises.)


I guess you're referring to 'critics' who write? If so, what do you think will be written about the year zero for these critics of tomorrow? That is, if Rock n Roll's year zero is Little Richard screaming Awopbopaloobopalopbamboom (debatable?), or Punk's year zero is Iggy Pop's first jam with the Stooges, what will these critics proffer as their's?

Kraftwerk "Autobahn"
"In bed with Madoona"
Whitney Houston "I wanna dance with somebody"
David Byrne & Brian Eno "My life in the Bush of ghosts"
Michael Jackson "Don't stop till you get enough"

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: agarchy ]
 
 
A
01:14 / 07.09.01
Y'know, I think that this Timberlake chap just might be on to something. I don't think that he's necessarily being egotistical or whatever. He's in a manufactured prefab boy group, but I'm sure that he's aware of this.

Just because he's in such a band doesn't mean he necessarily likes their music. The members of "boy bands" are more like the cast of a tv show than members of a regular band- they're getting a lot of fame anf fortune from what they're doing, so they don't really have to like it to keep doing it.

I think the point he seemed to be making is that now more than ever, the music being sold to young people by big record companies is almost entirely image-based.

They're "selling the sizzle, not the steak", if you will. (it's difficult to tell from the quote whether Timberlake thinks that this is a "good thing" or not).

At some point in the not-too-distant past, the image of a pop band seems to have overtaken their music as being the central concept. I think that with the likes of Bros and New Kids on the Block, the image was an accessory to the music, but now the music seems to be an accessory to the image of a band.

So the "music" that kids are listening to now is less about music than about clothes, dance steps, good looks etc... and this is bound to have SOME sort of effect on the furure-critics growing up with it.

Also, you folks who live in Britain have a different experience about music criticism to the rest of us. The NME and Melody Maker, for all their many flaws, actually have some sign of life about them. It would not be too remarkable for the NME to give a band like, say, Pearl Jam, 0 out of 10 in a record review, whereas this would be unthinkable in Rolling Stone or whatever.

In Australia, at least, the entire music media exists solely to sell advertising to major labels, which means they do whatever the major labels want.

By god this was a long, rambling post.

adam
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
07:40 / 07.09.01
quote:Originally posted by count adam:
In Australia, at least, the entire music media exists solely to sell advertising to major labels, which means they do whatever the major labels want.

Really? In that case, the street press must've completely died since I moved over here to London. I remember, in Sydney, reading Drum Media, for example, which - while still exhibiting the talent the music press has for best-buddy pocket-pissing - at least pointed out stuff that was local, new, and not mainstream. Fuck, I only read major music publications that came through work, or that I got for free - I never bought it, and never bought into it.

What Timberlake has to say about the music industry is nothing new, really; and for a particular, mainstream, pop-audience, it's got a ring of truth to it. Big Corporate Productions are over-inflated now, and keep getting so. But doesn't the amount of small, bedroom-recorded, low-fi, cheap-release stuff increase, too? Aren't more artists putting their stuff on the net, for free? If someone gets interested in something that's not pop, there's more avenues than ever before to go down and check them out, a lot of them accessible from a computer in a bedroom. Agarchy's right; music is fluid, and there's a multitude of influences you can explore from any given artist. If someone's interested in music in any way - certainly if they're interested enough to write about it - then surely they'll explore some of these, and perhaps be led away from the Big Corp. fold?

As I mentioned earlier: my tastes aren't goverened by Rick Astley, or T'Pau, or the James Last and Neil Diamond and Dolly Parton discs that my parents listened to on long car-trips. I don't only listen to that stuff; admittedly, my love of classical music stems from then, but I've carved out my own tastes, off my own bat. Why give anyone yet to be born any less credit? If anything, I think the critics of tomorrow will probably be used to listening to a much wider range of music than ever before. They'll initially be raised on pop - as most people in their 20s now were, to a certain extent, certainly in the UK, where the pop scene seems to be bigger in music than elsewhere - but if they care enough about music to want to write about it, I'm sure they'll be digging around to find whatever they like; and being of a generation that's used to information bombardment, presumably they'll be used to sifting through more dross to find the gold? Maybe the critics of tomorrow will rebel against the bombast and ceremony of the pop of their youth, and you'll see a rebirth of critical support for clean, economic punklike pop? Maybe, instead of getting larger and larger, bloatpop (and blokepop) are crafting their own doom?
 
 
autopilot disengaged
07:46 / 07.09.01
i think timberlake is wrong. i believe the battle between indie/DIY and mainstream/corporate will continue, with both sides scoring occasional victories at particular times. at some point, timberlake's popularity & power is going to evaporate, and because the content of his work while famous was damn near non-existent, there'll be nothing to remember him for except the fact he used to famous. it'll be interesting to see what kind of rent-a-quote he trots out then...

but, i have to say - this viewpoint does trouble me. already criticism is being marginalized in the mainstream media - in favour of magazines that sluttishly work so closely with artists and their companies (who often own the magazine's publishers to boot) to produce interviews, features etc that are more like promotions...

so i don't think the fundamental nature of critics (if we take critics to mean someone who appreciates music history - critics as we know them) will change necessarily, just that genuinely active critics may become completely superflous to the day-to-day machinations of the music biz.

but i don't think it'll happen.

make that: i really fucking hope it doesn't happen.
 
 
shirtless, beepers and suntans
04:07 / 09.09.01
i think it's important for musicians and music lovers not to take seriously what professional critics have to say. in the end, several things, i think, must be kept in mind so you don't get frustrated and give up on music or art.

first, music writers are just that. being an aspiring newsman, i don't consider them to be credible journalists. magazines like Rolling Stone should not be trusted; after all they exist only to sell ads and increase circulation. they don't serve any vital public interest. their writings are not based upon facts; they're based totally on subjective interpretations. furthermore, the magazines publish what will sell. Because they were so pivotal in inspiring Kurt Cobain, it can be argued with cogency that the Melvins are one of the most important rock bands of the last 20 years. But you'll never see them on the cover of Rolling Stone.

second, if you think about it, everyone is a critic, with his own likes, dislikes and biases. what makes somebody who gets a byline in Spin magazine any more believable than the indie-wanker working at your favorite record shop? (the counter-argument here is that the pros are expected to be better-schooled in music history, theory, etc., but one doesn't need to own a massive record collection to appreciate music.)

third--though it's become a cliche--the Internet has opened the door for exposure to all kinds of music. self-proclaimed critics are no longer the gate keepers, if they ever were in the first place.

finally, regarding the corporatization of music, there will always be a plethora of cutting edge and unusual music through the efforts of independent record labels and grass-roots local scenes. look at influential bands such as Black Flag and the Dead Kennedys. hell, even the early Chicago bluesmen of the 1930s were on what would today be called an indie label.

in other words, i don't see any reason to be "disturbed."
 
  
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