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Underground > Radio & Music >

Lady Rockers and other Femme-Types

18:39 / 29.08.01

This is kind of a spin-off of the "He is THE Gay Rapper" thread, and the "What is Rock N' Roll?" thread.

I've been thinking about it, and it's really hard to think of hard rockers that have more traditionally feminine traits than masculine. I mean, Sleater Kinney, the divine Polly Jean Harvey, and Bob Mould come to mind, but it seems if you wanna be a rocker in the RAAAWWWK!!! sense of the world, you have to throw as much machissmo in your music as possible.

Is THAT part or rock n' roll? As I write this, I've been listening to my ROCK! ROCK! ROCK! mix CD, and I'm at "American Badass" by Kid Rock, which definitely meets the macho standard. Most of the songs on here are by female artists - The Runaways (yes, my theme song), early Heart, the Donnas, but all of them still tap into that machismmo vibe.

IS rock inherently macho? Is it possible to be "feminine" and rock?

[ 29-08-2001: Message edited by: Cherry Bomb ]

18:47 / 29.08.01

Faith No More were ROCK without the machismo, surely?

20:00 / 29.08.01

the divine Miss Sandy Bernhard did some stuff on women in rock on her last tour I'm still here dammit
on Joan Jett, and Pat Benatar - 'we do belong to the night...' [uttered in droll Sandra fashion]

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:09 / 29.08.01

And all who sail in the good ship Mr Lady.

08:00 / 30.08.01

I nearly bought this huge, pretentious looking book of essays about 'Women in Rock' in a 2nd hand shop the other week. But I couldn't afford it, so it's wisdom remains unknown to me.

The Breeders & Throwing Muses - surely they, using any accepted scale of measurement, most surely ROCK, without being at all macho?

What of Shonen Knife? They positively kick ass whilst being about as un-macho as it's possible to be.

And come to think of it, aren't there loads of male bands who rock the house whilst being defiently testosterone free? Emo-Core anyone? Weezer? Buddy Holly?

08:47 / 30.08.01

P J Harvey and L7, Babes in Toyland. Joni Mitchell. All Women and all rock in some shape or other. Well in my head they do.

Ronald Thomas Clontle

11:04 / 30.08.01

You know, I know what you mean about some female artists having to make themselves a bit more 'masculine' to ROCK in capital letters, but I don't think that is true across the board...a good example for me would be The Slits, who I think rock in a very primal visceral way that is entirely non-masculine to my ears...

Ronald Thomas Clontle

11:07 / 30.08.01

I would tend to disagree with the notion that emo bands, and especially Weezer, are testosterone-free....I mean, to me, their constant use of overdrive and fuzztones and other grunge-tactics just screams macho to me.

I think there is a lot of rock type music that isn't testerone laden without being folk or slowcore or something like that. I'm listening to Avey Tare and Panda Bear right now, and I think there is a very obvious feminity to their music (they are two men), though I'd be at a loss to try to explain it to someone who hadn't heard it...

17:01 / 30.08.01

i can't remember if this should be attributed to joan jett or suzie quatro, but i've always loved this line:

"women have balls; they're just higher up"

18:15 / 30.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Flux = undergrad:
I would tend to disagree with the notion that emo bands, and especially Weezer, are testosterone-free....I mean, to me, their constant use of overdrive and fuzztones and other grunge-tactics just screams macho to me.

Why is Weezer always clumped into emo? Just because emo kids like 'em a lot and ape their clothes style? They really aren't emo; music wise they're a power pop band, definately more in common with Cheap Trick than Cap'n Jazz...

Julie Ruin definately rocks without being masculine. Two female (at least fronted) bands that could be considered "macho" (only music wise, not so much lyric wise) but I see as, at most, androgynous are 7 Year Bitch and Loraxx. These are two of the most intense, hard hitting bands ever, makes death metal look like sissy music. Both are Jesus Lizard-esque (for some reason I don't see the Jesus Lizard as being "macho" maybe it's the nonsensical lyrics) with the pounding drums, angular guitars and grooving bass lines and highly angry, which isn't necessarily a machismo thing, everyone gets pissed off. [I highly recommend both of these bands to you, Cherry. When you're in Chicago, I know for a fact that you can get Loraxx at Crow's Nest and the Clubhouse, and probably other places, go, now, you won't regret it and you'll end up thanking me later, seriously.]

19:15 / 30.08.01

quote:Originally posted by kooky needs a drink:
i can't remember if this should be attributed to joan jett or suzie quatro, but i've always loved this line:

"women have balls; they're just higher up"

>>sigh<<

Ah, Suzie Quatro...

I wanted to be her SO. BADLY! when she played Fonzie's girlfriend. At the time I didn't know what a rocker she was...

More later!

22:44 / 30.08.01

a good example for me would be The Slits, who I think rock in a very primal visceral way that is entirely non-masculine to my ears...

Hell yeah!! About time somebody else mentioned The Slits around here. Man what I wouldn't do to get with Ari Up.

Personally, I don't think we've even touched the tip of the iceberg here. What about Lydia Lunch? Diamanda Galas? The Late Kirsty MacColl? Exene Cervenkova (X)? Debby Harry (Blondie)? Poly Styrene (X Ray Spex)? Scrawl?

I think the best example is Patti Smith. She rocked, but when it came time to get married, she poured all of her time & her talent into her marraige. But when her husband died, she came back to music kicking & screaming just as fierce as ever.

A

04:05 / 31.08.01

Little Richard pretty much invented rock'n'roll (yeah, that's an overstatement, but fuck it), certainly perfected it, and was a squealing, makeup wearing queen.

The most overtly "masculine" form of music is metal, which has borrowed so much from gay culture (often without realsing it) that it's hilarious.

masculine = "macho" = homoerotic = sissy = feminine

or something

adam

Disco is My Class War

07:01 / 31.08.01

I think I'm a little confused here. Are we talking about 'macho' or are we talking about 'maculine'? Is this thread just a total excuse for people to come out and say, oh yeah, but what about x+z+y female bands/singers that they like who shouldn't be labelled with 'macho' or 'masculine' because it's not nice for chicks to be tough? (I'm not saying you were arguing this, Cherry Bomb, at all, I'm just pointing out the uh confusing weirdness)

I don't really know what masculinity is. Or femininity. Personally, I would like to see some more chicks who don't feel they have to do the red lipstick and big dark sunglasses rock-chick thing, that so many seem to need to get a contract. It's the same in indie labels as anywhere else.

And how bout the Butchies? Are they macho? I mean, take my new favourite band the Moves: they all have buzzcutts and look like raging dykes and possibly sound a bit like Fugazi. But, um, they're not macho. Maybe masculine.

Define yr terms.

10:57 / 31.08.01

That was not what i meant when I started this thread, actually.

I was really just thinking about how so many real hard rockers in rock n' roll had kind of an air of ultramachhismo... masculinity taken to such hyperbole it's almost a cariacture of itself. Think Gene Simmons in "Decline of Western Civilization Part II, The Metal Years" doing his entire interview surrounded by babes. Think NWA's sentiment "Life Ain't Nothin' But Bitches & Money" sentiment on the "Straight Outta Compton" album.

I KNOW ladies can rock, but, thiking about how hard it was to get someone who didn't display some sort of peacock-like uber machissmo and make it in the rap world - I mean, let's take Li'l Kim and Eve - they're like these hyperfeminzed looking women who rap with the same ultramachissmo.

So I got to thinkin,' about whether it was possible to AVOID this ultramachissmo and still rock rock rock. I did think of PJ Harvey and Le Tigre, among other folks, but when I started this thread I was wondering if there IS an inherent male persona that a female has to accept in order to be accepted in the rock world, and if it is possible to reject that and embrace a more female-centric way of being and STILL rock. I mean, of course it is, but is it possible to garner mainstream acceptance at that point?

Does this make things a little clearer?

I was also just thinking about the military and other boys' clubs, and wondering what they had in common with rock n' roll.

12:50 / 31.08.01

I think rock n' roll has a real big boys club element. Probably due to the fact that ever since the '50s, almost all the performers / producers / promotors / record company scum / DJs / record shop people / other miscellaneous hangers-on have been male, and mostly continue to be male.

When you look at bands who achieve big success or get THE BIG HYPE(tm), there definately seems to a desire for them to be a bunch of guys. The sort of 'four lads who shook the world!' vibe.

Somehow, it seems completely impossible to imagine Sleater Kinney or Le tigre getting anything near the same amount of BIG HYPE as At The Drive-In or The Strokes, though more or less everyone would acknowledge that they're just as good. Why is this?

(NOTE: please don't knock the following theory too hard, cos it's only just popped into my head and is probably pretty dumb after further thought)

Maybe it's like the magazine thing in reverse? Y'know, the way that women are on the front of almost all magazines, supposedly on the theory that the men fancy them and women relate to them..
Maybe the Music industry works vice versa -the male fans are s'posed to relate to the healthy camaraderie of the all-male group while the female fans, often lumped into the somewhat degrading category of groupies, are s'posed to fancy the band.
Hense Sleater Kinney's imfamous proclimation of "We're not here to fuck the band, we are the band!" I guess.

Does that make any sense to anyone?

(Oddly enough, I'm listening to The Slits 'Cut' as we speak - bloody crazy record - reggae I was not expecting..)

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:05 / 31.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Rizla Year Zero:
Probably due to the fact that ever since the '50s, almost all the performers / producers / promotors / record company scum / DJs / record shop people / other miscellaneous hangers-on have been male, and mostly continue to be male.

You know, I'm pretty sure that's a good deal less true than History of the Rock and Roll Years: The True Story of Rock and Roll or whatever would have us believe...

quote:Originally posted by Margin Walker:
I think the best example is Patti Smith. She rocked, but when it came time to get married, she poured all of her time & her talent into her marraige. But when her husband died, she came back to music kicking & screaming just as fierce as ever.

Scaring me now. Why does this make Patti Smith the "best"? Because women need to get their priorities straight and, if they choose to get married, make sure they "pour all of their time & talent" into the marriage rather than music? Would you ask the same of male rockers?

00:39 / 01.09.01

Hmmm...I've done some time in the Music Industry, and I fear that Rizla has a point. While it may be true that women have had more of an input into Rock 'n' Roll (both musically and behind the scenes) since the 1950's than they get credit for, it's the blokes that get the attention and respect. People who want to make it in the music industry will do what it takes to make it, regardless of gender. Women tend to get attention by playing the extremes; they can play very femme or very butch, but just being themselves won't get the industry weasles excited enough to push the product. So very often people don't know about brilliant artists like Leslie Rankine.

[ 01-09-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]

01:34 / 01.09.01

Scaring me now. Why does this make Patti Smith the "best"? Because women need to get their priorities straight and, if they choose to get married, make sure they "pour all of their time & talent" into the marriage rather than music? Would you ask the same of male rockers?

<spits out a bunch of words that Zen/Flyboy put in my mouth>

Y'know, I just got done writting some big long defense about it not being "women getting their priorities straight"

, but about leaving behind the fame & fortune of her Punk contemporaries (Blondie, Talking Heads, etc.) would later savor. So there. Gotta problem wit dat?

A

06:37 / 01.09.01

This is a bit of a tangent, but i remember reading in a fanzine the idea that any time someone says anything nice about a "girl" band, it's almost always at the expense of another girl band.
This is frighteningly accurate- I have read so many reviews since then that do exactly that. It's never "Bratmobile are great", or "Bratmobile are better than Fugazi", but often "Bratmobile show Bikini Kill how it's done", to make up an example.
Keep this in mind when you're reading music magazines etc. and see how often it happens.

adam

Disco is My Class War

10:07 / 02.09.01

See, the thing about Patti Smith is, maybe she just decided that she didn't want that fame and fortune. She still continued to write poetry and do 'stuff'. Is that a bad thing?

11:11 / 02.09.01

A really good read on this topic: Gender and rock, is a book called (something like) "The sex wars" by two writers, only one of which I can remember - Simon Reynolds.Its a wide ranging, fascinating study of the variety of ways in which gender is presented through rock/pop, travelling through such artists as Patti Smith, PJ Harvey, Nick Cave, Jim an Van Morrison, Tim Buckley, Liz Fraser, Kirsten Hersch etc.

Apart from Patti Smith, I'd like to put in a plug for Chan Marshall (Cat Power), and Chrissie Hynde (Pretenders) as both being interesting, powerful singer/songwriters, who, although in different decades, have forged their own paths - into my heart, anyway.
And what about the trailblazing of Janis Joplin, who crashed hard into male rock culture, with little in the way of precursors?

16:46 / 02.09.01

Part of what we see here is caused by a dearth of female role models who rock without machismo. Rock as a genre is less than 50 years old, remember, and has historically been a boy's club--in mirror of the larger society--and as pernormal, the oppressed often pick up the worst habits of the oppressor.

Things like this, though, give me enormous hope for the future--as women find ways to rock in their own distinctive voices.

Cos that's the bottom line: there should'nt be a men's-way-to-rock-out and a owmen's-way-to-rock-out: there should be as many manners of rockin' as there are individuals who yearn to rock.

Gawd, what a bizarre sentence that is...

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:44 / 03.09.01

I had this whole point I was trying to work out about the concept of "rock'n'roll" and how it entails a certain amount of machismo, and how women often aren't allowed "in" unless they display certain characteristics that on the surface appear to take on male rock'n'roll characteristics for themselves, but actually just reinforce the gender roles usually assigned in rock'n'roll culture... and I was going to compare and contrast The Donnas and Le Tigre for this purpose. But I think this article does it well enough.

01:44 / 04.09.01

Patti Smith continued to write music and poetry. She co-wrote a lot of songs with Blue Oyster Cult's keyboardist Allen Lanier (who was one of Patti's long time lovers... maybe during the marriage as well) for BOC before, during, and after her marriage.

Also, Doro Pesch is probably the hardest rocking female (in the heavy metal sense of the word 'rock') in the past 20 years. She was originally the singer for the German band Warlock and is now doing a solo thing.