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>Jackie Nothing Special wrote :
>Like the guys (and it's mostly guys) making and
>listening to it just want to look better than regular
>rap. It seems elitist. I'm not saying the producers
>and MCs are elitists, but that's the vibe I get from
>it, and it makes it much harder for me to get into it.
well, i really believe that this "vibe" you talk about is comin from the fact that we're all got habits with some mind pictures of what we know as hip hop. kind of the same reaction from the people who were used to, let see, u2 or radiohead untill these bands go into some other territories that what they were knowed for. we can like it, we can hate it, we can don't take care, but obviously we feel a little bit different, and we think about it. why not the same feelings about this new hip hop that play in some other playgrounds (and i've NEVER say BETTER, just DIFFERENT). i think we feel it elitist cause it moves to another point, and in all this music business, we'gto some strongs habits, indeed, to just agree from the beginning to some insiders movements. well, that's how i feel it ; some shit are way too different for me too, but i love the idea or checkin it, for knowing what happens in these areas...
>Flux = Rad wrote :
>>>i'm a lot into the "intelligent" stuff cause it
>>>makes me feel new blood
>Every argument I can make against the very hip hop
>that you're championing is already made for me by
>your own use of quotations around the word 'intelligent'.
hell, don't get me wrong on this one. if you read it well, i wrote the -"- for using it. pardon my bad english, i'm just a looser using your tongue. my english sucks hardcore, and it's easier for me to read or listen than using and write it, so please excuse my lack of vocabulary. "intelligent" is the generic term than medias use for describing the works of the artists we talk about. well, there's so much tags for it that i was thinking that you guys will be able to get it without falling on me on this like if i was some kind of fascist. hell, i'm not even "championning" this hip hop, i'm just feeling bad that some of people who seems like some real open minded people (barbelith bro and sis, i mean) don't get the idea about it. i was (and still is) into pete rock and CL s, ATCQ, brand nubian, blacksheep, main source, ditc, and all this public enemy, nwa, you can count'em, anyway : i'm into hip hop in all its forms.
but i feel really glad that people try to exoand the genre a little bit "outside" the typical playground. who can you blame of it ? isn't it some kind of natural evolution ? (i didn't say progression or regression, just evolution, uh).
>I'm with Jackie, there's a lot of hip hop out there that is
>selfconciously interested with its own 'intelligence', and
>honestly, I hear much more intelligent things come out
>of the mouths of those who aren't caught up in their own
>pretentions.
honestly too, i'm more than ok to give a try to what you can hear that i do'nt know, i don't got all the hip hop records which are released all year long, sorry. but please tell me who you call "caught up in their own pretentions", cause i think i remember that there's no so many genres as pretentious and egocentric than the hiph op themes. well, the term egotrip comes from this very kind of music, uh ? so tell me which artist you didn't hear that he's the one who bla bla, etc... i don't believe that rapping on more mindtripping than anything else is such a pretentious thing.
>Outkast say brilliant things, and their music is insane,
>but they never get caught up in any elitist bullshit.
here we come, "bullshit". please tell me that you feel that clearly, outkast are a little bit off the ususal topic too ! for a certain time, their attitude, their lyrics, are "different" fromthe classci roster of your favorites artists, no ? i mean, do you really feel they were loved that much when they came into the scene with this strange attitude (god, the clothes were reminiscent of 'another" style, uh?) ? no, it took time to got the massive feedback, and please, believe that i really like them since a certain time, too. so without talkin about "elitist bullshit" (which is a word i really find bad used here), don't you feel that they were playing their stuff for people more open minded than the classic so-called b-boy ?
>Also, your argument about major labels and coverage
>having something to do with 'charisma' is utter bullshit.
no offense, but majors really have to do with the idea you got of the artist they promote. apart from the really underground ones (and you didn't talk about somes of those a single time, which don't mean you don't listen to them, but that we talked about only those who got some kind of exposure), i don't think that the "aura" we got from those artists are just the good reflection of what they truly are.
i don't wanna speak the language of the basic fan who really think that all this guys are sincere ; having what you called charisma is, in my eyes, just a brilliant thing you gottta have if you wanna sell : the picture you give to audience, the one they want. now, it's a cool plus for them, but i don't wanna use it as an argument for the quality of their stuff.
>There's loads of unpopular MCs who are dripping with
>charisma, and there's a list a mile long of mainstream MCs
>with no charisma to speak of.
>You may be served well to check the definition of charisma:
>when you say something like 'these guys have a lot of
>interesting things to say' in defense of me claiming they are
>charisma-free, it's clear you don't know what I'm talking about.
i think i lnow what you talked about. it's just that when i listen to hip hop stuff, i think we've seen enough chuck D, Ice Cube, slick Rick, Luke Skyywalker, Q-Tip, Meth', or even Snoop for knowing that it helps a lot to get massive charisma ; now, is it so important for loving their music ? from france, way back when the first PE or NWA came here, we didn't get much infos about it. it was just about loving it and having interest for it, without coverage, and that's all. so just by hearing mc's or feeling the productions, we got to have an opinion, we've got to be open enough to receive this very waves, well, you got the point ; and i hadn't ever seen dre, cube or eazyE, but i felt them well. after that, i've seen them, and they became well exposed here. of course some were shinier than others. is it what you call charisma ? i was thinking it was just a part of the talent they got for droppin their shit, and having the attitude to do it with their own style. i mean, so many people drop fat stuff, but who knows the names of the members of blacksheep, the pharcyde, the goats, main source ? is their lack of charisma make them down, compared to the big names i've talked about upper ? well, i don't think so. and that's exactly why i feel not fair to judge artists by soem other arguments than the ones that really counts.
>Sure, they may have lots of interesting thoughts, but
>they themselves aren't compelling enough to make me
>care or listen to them.
it's sad for them, maybe, cause with more stuff apart their musical skills, they coudl reach higher audience. but i think it's sad for you too to just check those who're bigger than thre others. well, i feel it like this anyway. once again, i don't say i'm the one to be listened, Flux. i was just feeling bad to read that people can judge so quickly some stuff because of some thing that don't count so much for me.
>You don't need to tell me about DIY, I'm way
>ahead of you, man. Save the lectures on the purity
>of the unpopular for someone who never grew up
>around punk and indie rock. I didn't buy the snobbery
>thing from them, and I won't be buying it from indie
>hip hoppers either.
fuck this unpopular = dope thing, please. i'm a lot into commercial shit also, and i really, really, REALLY don't give a shit about the ones who loves what don't sell. i just feel, i think, how it could be hard and how it could hurts to drop your shit and don't got as much echo as others got, just because you got something differeent to say, or just because you do it in different ways, that's all. dot. now, you can think whatever you wanna to, i really don't care, Flux. i just regret that you're so sure of you and about your ideas, and i 'm sad too that this topic turned so badly. once again, i wanna apologize for my maybe bad-used vocabulary, if it can make me a little less an asshole as you probabaly think i am.
>The Flyboy wrote :
>Sorry, june, but as soon as you said this:
>quote : "how can you judge this so hardly ?
>just say that you're not feelin them, that it's
>too experimental for you, that for you hip hop
>must stay what it is for 15 years (sample, beat
>kick, bass, ghetto lyrics about crack, gang,
>crew in the street, etc...), but don't compare the
>people who works for some new kind of hip hop
>with those who don't take risk and just drop
>cliché stuff." ... I just switched off. You can
>argue the merits of Co-Flow v. DMX and RZA
>v. Blacalious until the cows come home, but as
>soon as you start insulting people's intelligence
>for liking something that is perceived as progressive
>merely because it wears the stamp of its own
>progressiveness so ostentatiously on its sleeve...
>well, you're playing y'self.
well, frankly, i'm, once again, sorry if my words were so out of subject. i mean what i wrote, but i don't see where i insult people when trying to defend some perimeter players better than inside players. i mean, please be opbjective and agree on the fact that theres' plenty of hip hop artists who are just playing the game, uh ? and do i have to apologize myself when trying to explain that i give more credit to those who make big things aside ? which doesnt' mean that people buying big well-knowed stuff are stupid, neither i'm mroe intelligent than them, holy fuck ! i'm just wanna tell to you people that sometimes, it's easier to stay on his habits, and even if the important thing is still take pleasure of it, some other (pleasure) can come from others things that don't shine as much as the usual stuff.
but please, don't get me wrong : i 've never, ever, thinked about the fact that the shit i listen to is "more intelligent" or done by people "more intelligent", or for people "mroe intelligent". really.
>The King of Bongo wrote :
>As Freddie Foxx, Brand Nu and Planet Asia have
>all said many a time: we're in this business for the
>money but it doesn't mean we have to compromise
>our sound. That I can buy.
me too. (plus, planet asia kick ass).
>But the intelligent/abstract scene which is about
>wilfully not making any money I don't buy.
no, i don't think so. i 'm sure all this guys will be glad to got the jackpot one day. but i'm pretty sure too that they know it's not so obvious that money will fall one day, cause they're playing with stuff that don't reach so many people. one of my closest friends work in the tiny nu-alternative-NY-hip-hop microverse (i didn't write intelligetn, uh?), so i think he knows what dj Spooky, Anti Pop or the Anticon crew can get in terms of money. and i can tell that the russian-english dj Vadim loose many, many pounds on each of his live tour, where he brings big indie names, a lot for the hope that one day they will be knowed, for sure, as the others. but as soon as he's not in jail, owing money evreywhere, you know what ? he don't care and still do his shit. talkin about passion here...
>That isn't hip-hop to me. Hip-hop isn't about conventional
>notions of avant garde - it has its own way of moving the
>game on. The intelligent/abstract scene is trying to apply
>the rules that have made indie rock so tiresome to hiphop
>and it aint going to wash...
i ain't with you on all of this. yes, it got its own way of moving the game on, well written. but i do'nt think the alternative scene is trying to applu whatever you say. indie rock eats itself cause it stopped to change and innovate. there still great bands, artists, in it svery genre, who do brilliant things. but don't you think that after the majors came fuck with the indie scene, it found itself a little bit skinnier ? i mean, moeny turn around what works, and indie rock stay indie longer enough to call bis brands around, makin them choose who will works more and what will falls. and, as i said, the lack of new shit injected in it helped the big scene to kill itself. i guess that alternate hip hop is just a tiny arm of a big octopus called hip hop. now, you can play or fuck with the ones you wanna too. but i don't see how alternates could take controlof the beast and make it "tiresome". there's too many arms, strongers and olders, followed by too many people, for lettin it comin through. plus, it doesn't stand a chance in front of the buyers ! i don't think that Anti Pop can reach as many people as eminem, for example. i doubt it never will...
peace y'all. |
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