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Vanilla Sky (SPOILERS)

 
 
Murray Hamhandler
15:37 / 17.12.01
Okay. I know that this has gotten some pretty bad reviews, and I haven't seen the original to know how it compares. But this was one of the most emotionally affecting movies I've seen in a long time. I almost completely lost my shit and started blubbering like a baby. So I thought it was great. I mean, there were some hoky bits and the ultimate premise was a little...far-fetched. But I chose to not look at the movie in a literal way, but rather as an exploration of lost chances, the nature of tiny decisions that can change one's life, and (trying not to spoil anything w/this one) of facing reality even though it might not be what you want it to be. Anyway. Quite possibly my favorite movie this year, if only because it resonated so strongly w/me.
Arthur Sudnam

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: The Return Of Rothkoid ]
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
15:45 / 17.12.01
I just find it entertaining that Penelope Cruz is playing the same character that she did in the original.
 
 
Tempus
16:57 / 17.12.01
One could argue Penelope Cruz plays the same character in *every* movie she's in.

Interesting to hear another perspective on Vanilla Sky , though. Other than my general dislike of calling either Penelope Cruz or Tom Cruise "actors," I thought it had a lot going for it. Perhaps it's another example of the Mission To Mars phenomenon, where you have to be a certain audience type, in a certain frame of mind, to like it. (Yes, I liked Mission To Mars , no, I won't apologize for it.)

[ 17-12-2001: Message edited by: Tempus ]
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
19:36 / 17.12.01
How does this one compare to the original? Paleface will have some suitable invective to slot in as soon as ze gets back from getting hir teeth yanked, I'm sure.

But I'm intrigued, anyway.
 
 
Vadrice
00:23 / 18.12.01
maybe a spoiler. Maybe a deconstruction... whatever.

I'll start by mentioning that I loved the film, and no, I haven't seen the original either.

Lame race/gender/class text though. very lame.
The ultimate evil in the film (and what caused all the problems) was the crazy white bitch...
And it seemed like they were deffinatly highlighting that all rich white boys (and their less well off ethnic girlfriends) have to worry about are keeping that pretty face and not going nuts because of crazy white bitch... all in the context of the penultimate rich man's video game.
Right.

However, this one will deffinatly kick some tires and light some fires, so I'm willing to forgive all that.
Every once in a while hollywood redeems itself with a corporate headfuck of this nature.
Huzzah.
Matrix for the coke snorting upper class buisnessman on E.

Great soundtrack, by the way. aside from one or two... well... Lets just say I didn't stay for the credits.
 
 
CameronStewart
02:32 / 18.12.01
>>>>The ultimate evil in the film (and what caused all the problems) was the crazy white bitch...
And it seemed like they were deffinatly highlighting that all rich white boys (and their less well off ethnic girlfriends) have to worry about are keeping that pretty face and not going nuts because of crazy white bitch... <<<

How do you reconcile this theory given that in the original, all the characters are "ethnic"? I can't really see how racial stereotyping is even a factor when it's a precise translation of a story in which there is no racial divide between the characters.

I haven't seen Vanilla Sky yet, but I just got back from seeing Open Your Eyes, the Spanish original. As far as I can gather from trailers and reviews, VS is an almost shot-for-shot carbon copy. I recognized a lot of OYE from the trailers for VS - they're literally the same shots.

**POTENTIAL SPOILERS FOLLOW**

I'm curious to see if Tom Cruise is as disfigured as Eduardo Noriega is in the original.

The main problem I had with OYE was that I figured it out about half-way through, and while I still enjoyed the film, I was impatient for the film to catch up and offically explain what I had already deduced an hour before. The foreshadowing was actually a bit too blatant - (the main character has half a dozen "waking dreams" in the first half, there's constant advertisements for the cryogenics company on the television, etc etc) I think they could have waited until the third act to even mention the sci-fi stuff and it may have been a bit more surprising.

Great end to OYE - he leaps off the building (again, the exact same vertigo-inducing tilt-a-cam shot I've seen in the trailers for VS) and after impact, there's just a black screen and a woman's voice: "Relax...open your eyes..." Then credits roll. Is this retained in the remake?

Unusually, this is one big star-powered Hollywood remake of a European film that I'd really like to see.

[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
casemaker
13:22 / 18.12.01
My final decision, after much pondering, is that I dislike this film and everything it stands for. But, it did leave me with an acrid enough aftertaste that I’ve been kicking the scenes through my brain for the last three days or so. Does that make it good? Even though, from an objective stance it’s shit, it DID manage to tug on my strings for awhile. I’ll say this -- it’s yet another example of how Morrison’s invisible meme is penetrating every media on the planet. The pathetic part is that Vanilla Sky is a hack-job of already existing subversive or creative film ideas. The Matrix, The Sixth Sense and David Lynch (parallels between evil blondes and innocent brunettes) were thoroughly raped. What I can’t figure out is who did the raping -- Cameron Crowe or the original director/writer of “Open Your Eyes”?

First thing. I hate it for manipulating my emotions in such a cheap way. Every base level archetype within the first hour of the film gets you teetering on the edge. You’ve got the “lost true love” and the “man who had everything”. Even the idea that the ONE decision he makes -- ruins everything he might have had -- is too simple of an attack on our audience ego. Once again, I don’t know if that makes Vanilla Sky a success or not. But I despise being cheaply pulled around like a rag doll, especially when there was so much opportunity to explore conflicts that would have been wholly original. I think Cameron Diaz’s semi-psychotic obsession with sex as a “promise” was skimmed over WAY too fast. We never return to her, or her motivation, or exactly how much relevance her actions have on the Cruize duo. Even with the script, there was such a hook to bring the “four times in one night” thing back later in the movie. Instead Tommy-C turns it into a quippy one liner. The movie’s final resolution wipes away any potential moral the events of the film might have laid out -- and simplifies it into the choice between a perfect fantasy or an imperfect reality -- without ANY foundation.

I’m also annoyed by this whole “the soundtrack is great” buzz that’s swarming about. Who ever schemed this project out, took great pains to give it some sort of avant-garde credibility -- such that even if the audience manages to realize the sleaziness of the production, there will still be that hip-factor going on for it (see: “Singles”).
Personally, I found the Radiohead intro to be laughable. It was almost a mockery of itself. How about, “So dude, what do you want to listen to? Radiohead? Or Sigur Ros?”
Or Penelope Cruz:
“Do you like Jeff Buckley?”
Alright already! Enough name-dropping! I get it! Cameron Crowe likes rock and roll! And despite being a forty-something millionaire director married to a forty-something has-been rock star -- he STILL keeps up with all the underground music that WE do!!! Amazing!
And Jason Lee, while being an underground icon, is not a very talented actor. He was just as much pseudo-subversive backdrop as the soundtrack, Monet, and Tilda Swinton.

I don’t see this movie as a head fuck for anyone. Any corrupting element it might have had was erased by the Dallas-style ending. I wish I could agree -- because that’s just what Hollywood needs right now -- a movie that transcends genre and offers up conflict ideas that the audience would normally not be subject to.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:34 / 18.12.01
Well, at least the converation wasn't "What do you want to listen to, Karlheinz Stockhausen or Terry Riley?" "Do you like Arvo Part?"

I find it hard to take Radiohead, Sigur Ros or *scoff* Jeff Buckley as 'avant garde' things to name drop, they are all major label acts who've sold a large number or records. C'mon. They are aren't that obscure...not enough to consider it a 'name drop' or something. Actually, mocking attractive yuppies for putting that stuff on as moody background music is pretty fucking clever, I say.

I haven't seen the film, mainly because it looks like it would terrible. I avoid Penelope Cruz like the fucking plague.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:50 / 18.12.01
quote:Originally posted by casemaker:
Vanilla Sky is a hack-job of already existing subversive or creative film ideas. <snip> David Lynch (parallels between evil blondes and innocent brunettes) <was> thoroughly raped.


I think you'll find that David Lynch may not have been the person who invented the %extremely subversive% idea of evil blondes and innocent brunettes. He may have taken inspiration from - sorry, "raped" - any number of earlier movies. Like Dick Tracy, for example...

[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
 
Foxxy Feminist Fury
14:11 / 18.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:


Dick Tracy, for example...

[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: Flyboy ]


Or Archie comics (Betty, Veronica)

Anyhoo. I'll probably go see this because a lot of people are talking about. Which is a good thing. Though I must say that I positively LOATHE both Tom Cruise and Penelope Cruize with a violent passion. Yech!

Okay, I liked him in "Magnolia," and I liked her in "All About My Mother," but that is IT.
 
 
casemaker
15:57 / 18.12.01
Flux:
You're right about them not exactly being obscure bands AND they are all on majors. But, I've found that most obscure (for lack of a better word) audio-philes, who normally wouldn't touch anything on a major, consider radiohead etc. to be bands that they're willing to cross some invisible anti-major label boundary for. It's sort of the reverse of your idea of yuppies "slumming it" by listening to the same bunch of stuff. I didn't see that the movie was trying to mock Tom Cruise's character as the attractive yuppie. It almost seemed the opposite. There was never any question of his vanity or wealth causing his downfall.

Flyboy:
Point taken. I have Lynch (and the blonde/brunette thing) on the brain because of Mulholland Drive and the parallels between that film and said Vanilla Sky. I consider Lynch to be more on the "creative" side of my argument than the "subversive" one.
Apologies for the "raped" thing. Maybe it was a little drastic -- this film just irked the hell out of me.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:06 / 18.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Foxxy Feminist Fury:


Or Archie comics (Betty, Veronica)



In the Archie comics, Betty the blonde is the good innocent girl and Veronica, with black hair is the evil bitch. So it's reverse of what they are on about...

What I was getting at is that Radiohead and Sigur Ros are bands that yuppie types listen to because of how 'edgy' they are, and their laziness to find anything else other than the weird bands with the most money behind them. I'm sure that character is a fan of Bjork, Portishead and Tricky too. Maybe he has a copy of Buena Vista Social Club when he feels "ethnic" or throws on Cannibal Ox or DJ Shadow's "Endtroducing" when he wants to feel 'black'...

He unquestionably owns every Air LP.

[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = American Aquarium Drinker ]
 
 
casemaker
16:26 / 18.12.01
Dude. He totally LOVES Belle & Sebastian and Gorillaz. Tenacious D -- for when he drinks with the boys.
 
 
tracypanzer
16:49 / 18.12.01
I heard he's a big Pavement fan, too.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:53 / 18.12.01
Pavement is a bit pushing it... Elliot Smith, on the other hand...

Pavement is more indicative of maybe two or three other 'obnoxious fan' stereotypes, for sure...
 
 
Foxxy Feminist Fury
16:55 / 18.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = American Aquarium Drinker:



In the Archie comics, Betty the blonde is the good innocent girl and Veronica, with black hair is the evil bitch. So it's reverse of what they are on about...




Yes. Normally I am smarter than I am today. I figured out later, but was too lazy to correct.
 
 
tracypanzer
16:56 / 18.12.01
Flux, I was just giving you a bad time...
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
17:32 / 18.12.01
Yeah, so what I think is going on here is that I'm exercising my ability to cut through the bullshit, the extraneous baggage, and get to the meat at the heart (that sounds really icky...). Basically, I didn't see Vanilla Sky as a movie about yuppies (because it wasn't, really) or about race (because it wasn't, really). I didn't see it as a Tom Cruise or Penelope Cruz vehicle (which is probably was) or as another one of those 'Cameron Crowe films' because I try not to judge a work by the people involved. I think that they all did a good job. Really. I haven't seen the original and I would try not to judge VS by that standard if I had. I mentioned before what I got from the movie and I stand by it. But maybe I'm too all about falling in love w/maybe not-so-terribly great movies for themes w/in the movie that resonate w/me. Who can say?...
Arthur Sudnam
 
 
Vadrice
04:25 / 19.12.01
quote:How do you reconcile this theory given that in the original, all the characters are "ethnic"?

As said, I didn't see the original, so I couldn't base any thoughts on that film or it's cast.
 
 
Francine I
05:25 / 19.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = American Aquarium Drinker:



In the Archie comics, Betty the blonde is the good innocent girl and Veronica, with black hair is the evil bitch. So it's reverse of what they are on about...

What I was getting at is that Radiohead and Sigur Ros are bands that yuppie types listen to because of how 'edgy' they are, and their laziness to find anything else other than the weird bands with the most money behind them. I'm sure that character is a fan of Bjork, Portishead and Tricky too. Maybe he has a copy of Buena Vista Social Club when he feels "ethnic" or throws on Cannibal Ox or DJ Shadow's "Endtroducing" when he wants to feel 'black'...

He unquestionably owns every Air LP.

[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = American Aquarium Drinker ]


Hmm. I've definately got to take you up on this one. It sounds kind of reductionist to sum people up by their musical tastes and how they differ from yours. While your stereotype may very well be accurate, it's still sort of deameaning. This person may have very good reasons for appreciating the music they appreciate.

Really, who are you to judge whether or not Radiohead is 'Yuppie Music', and whether or not that translates to listening to the Buena Vista Social Club soundtrack to 'feel ethnic'?

I don't think that's a reasonable assertion to make about other folk's personalities based on so little data, is all I'm saying.
 
 
Vadrice
15:35 / 19.12.01
quote:I don't think that's a reasonable assertion to make about other folk's personalities based on so little data, is all I'm saying.

But then again, film is all about economy. It's about packing information into a few seconds- such things which would be in no way possible without such conceptions and steriotypes.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:19 / 19.12.01

It sounds kind of reductionist to sum people up by their musical tastes and how they differ from yours. While your stereotype may very well be accurate, it's still sort of deameaning. This person may have very good reasons for appreciating the music they appreciate.


Dude, I have and enjoy most of those records I've mentioned.


I don't think that's a reasonable assertion to make about other folk's personalities based on so little data, is all I'm saying.


It's not a reasonalbe assertion, but it's often true.

I'm an unreasonable, cynical and judgemental misanthrope. That's true too.

[ 19-12-2001: Message edited by: Flux = American Aquarium Drinker ]
 
 
Perfect Tommy
10:24 / 20.12.01
CONTINUED SPOILAGE

My main problem with the movie was pretty minor--I just thought the ending was a little bit flabby, and could have done with some harsher editing. For the most part, I really liked it. quote:Originally posted by casemaker:
The pathetic part is that Vanilla Sky is a hack-job of already existing subversive or creative film ideas. The Matrix, The Sixth Sense and David Lynch...were thoroughly raped.
Actually, I think I liked it better than The Matrix. Why? It was obviously a similar theme, but I preferred this presentation: rather than being the kinda obvious sci-fi action treatment, it was the Invisible-meme as part of "normal" life. Not that Cruise was presented as an everyday schmoe, but he wasn't THE HACKER ON THE EDGE OF REALITY or anything. It appeared to be a love story that got very very weird on us. Maybe part of it was the fact that I knew absolutely nothing about it going in, though; I expect I would have liked The Matrix more if I hadn't heard everyone raving about it beforehand.

quote:Any corrupting element it might have had was erased by the Dallas-style ending.
Fair point... I think that might be part of why I thought the ending could have been tighter. I didn't think it should have been "Bam! Surprise! Roll credits!" but they hung around after explaining everything a bit too long. quote:Originally posted by CameronStewart:
I think they could have waited until the third act to even mention the sci-fi stuff and it may have been a bit more surprising.
I think if they'd waited that long, it would have been too much deus ex machina; having some early set-up (the hologram projector) lessened the "It was all a dream!" factor. But I didn't figure it out until near the end anyway--either because I'm dense or because I knew nothing coming in and so forgot to look for such a thing coming.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
04:01 / 24.12.01
i felt like i figured it out very early on and couldnt believe how long it took to "Explain" it. if you've ever read pk dick, it's a no brainer. i was ready to pull out my eyes and swallow them just to stay entertained. and then there was no pay off at all, i was hoping maybe there'd be a twist, but there was just the laborious explanation for what was obvious. (this refers to open your eyes -- i haven't seen VS yet)

has anyone seen BOTH films? i very curious to hear a compare/contrast --
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
23:58 / 03.02.02
m.

saw the original on last night. liked it.
wanna see the remake now.
don't see Jason Lee fitting in all that well...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:04 / 04.02.02
The ultimate Vanilla Sky review.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
21:01 / 05.02.02
If you watch 'The Hamster Factor', the film about the making of '12 Monkeys', at one point an actor dressed as a cop says "... And yeah, I shoot Bruce Willis. This is the first time Bruce Willis dies at the end of one of his films." (And if anybody so much as murmurs that I've spoilt TM for them I will hunt them down and kill them like a dog). Which is part of the reason why TM is a good film and part of the problem I have with Vanilla Sky.

When you have a big star, 9 times out of 10 that imposes limits on what you can do with the film. Some of these you can work around (as I firmly believe in the case of Keanu Reeves in 'The Matrix'). But would Cruise allow himself to be killed at the end of one of his films? Hell, in 'Interview With the Vampire' he drags himself back from the brink for the ending (although admittedly that makes more sense than the convuluted explanation Rice had to give in the books).

Cruise is a competent actor. I would never go to the cinema to see a Cruise film and the few I've seen him in ('A Few Good Men') have been watcheable enough. But the only think I really dislike about Vanilla Sky is the ending, and the only reason I dislike it is because of him.

Now, I haven't seen the original and don't really want to after watching this, so maybe they are just following the script dogmatically, but would it have killed them to make his final actions a leap of faith. It's as illogical and dumb as Neo flying off at the end of the Matrix, why are we supposed to care about Tom throwing himself off a skyscraper when the previous 10 minutes have been spent very carefully explaining that the world isn't real and it really is a computer simulation and that if Tom chooses to leave he will do and everything is alright.

But no-one seems to mind this, all the critics I've read have gone "How brave! Tom wears a mask and has a tiny physical imperfection!" Big fucking deal! I was expecting to find out that Tim Spall had fucked him over with the help of the Seven Dwarves and Jason Lee (who's doing it to get his book published). But no! The film would have been much better if the picture had finished a second or so before impact and we were left to wonder whether Cruise was back in the real world or had been tricked to leave it. But you can't do that with a star.

And if the original is the same then fuck it, that's why Cruise chose it. At least films like Memento (at lest the first one or two times viewing) are better, not having 'a star' they are freer in their possibilities.

Fuck 'em.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
21:03 / 05.02.02
And will someone hold Jason Lee down and delouse him or something? Is his next film going to be a biopic of 'Badly Drawn Boy' or something? The beard is NOT his friend...
 
 
Tom Coates
10:25 / 06.02.02
I have to say that I HATED Vanilla Sky. I completely despised it. I thought it ugly, ill-conceived, badly assembled and completely ill-judged.

I watched the first half of the original a few days ago, and it's a HELL of a lot better. The foreshadowing may be slightly more obvious, but it's also done much more elegantly - with the CREEPING realisation that some of it is a unreal turning into a shock of complete unreality.

It's also got some much more iconic images in it.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:20 / 06.02.02
(Edited to add "Spoilers" to the title for those who haven't seen either version. Like me. Not that I need to, now. Bah.)
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
20:51 / 06.02.02
So, in summary: Just watch the original... ?
 
 
Rage
09:15 / 07.02.02
I know that almost everyone hated Vanilla Sky, and I think that some of these people just figure it's unhip to like anything with Tom Cruise in it. Some of them have valid reasons for hating it, though I just don't feel the same way. I liked Vanilla Sky. Shoot me. I figured out what was going on when Cruise uttered his "live in a dream" line, but at least I didn't figure it out before I actually saw the movie. (IE. A Beautiful Mind) I enjoyed the whole Life Extension computer display on lucid dreaming and the ironic music that they played in the background when they were displaying it. I never saw the original, so I have nothing to compare it to. I'm talking about Vanilla Sky as a movie itself, without comparing it to the movie that it was a remake of. I liked it. It was interesting, clever, and mind fucky in a playful way. Good shit. Not great shit, but good shit.
 
  
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