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Star Trek and American Secular Humanism

 
 
Cat Chant
16:45 / 04.12.01
I'm not a Trek expert by a long way, and I'm sure this is very, very familiar ground to anyone who is. But I'd be very grateful, nonetheless, for any links, explanations and speculations you good people could provide.

It strikes me watching TNG and Voyager (I single them out only because they're the only 2 I'm at all familiar with) that there are constantly plots about B'Elanna Torres or Alexander coming to terms with their Klingon heritage, or Tuvok or Warf or Chakotay performing their native rituals, etc (usually to fill a 'gap' left by Star Fleet technology). Conversely, the Seven of Nine arc, as she rejects borg culture in order to embrace her heritage as a white American, is seen as "becoming human" - or even "becoming individual" - not as participating in a culture as arbitrary, ritualized and bounded as any other.

Does anyone know of any instances where Star Fleet culture (bourgeois individualism) is seen on a level with other cultures, rather than naturalized as "the human"? Jean-Luc's rejection of "the vinyards" might come in here, but on the other hand it might well not.

Correct me, educate me, etc, please...
 
 
grant
18:25 / 04.12.01
Actually, I think Q brings this up pretty constantly, especially in later episodes. It was his saving grace as a character, I think. It wasn't always as explored as thoroughly as it could have been, but it was stated explicitly: "What makes you think your way is so superior?"

It might be the central paradox of the old show, though: every time they hit a new, unknown civilization, they mention the Prime Directive (alter nothing! every culture is unique and valuable! your concept of right might not apply on some planets!), and then Kirk goes and spews a buncha individualistic propaganda, freeing hereditary slaves, turning off the suicide machines, that sort of thing.

I'm pretty sure Picard struggled with this a little more explicitly with the Borg - although these stories got an extra twist from Picard's vexed relationship with the Borg. (He was part of the collective at one point, and in some way, kind of misses the constant companionship.)
There was one specific episode I remember with the Borg they captured and returned to the collective after giving him a virus. Two viruses, actually: one, a mathematical paradox, and the other, a sense of individuality. I recall, I hope correctly, a lot of debate over a. whether giving a Borg a sense of self constituted a form of torture, and b. whether sending that new individual back to his home constituted a form of murder. Of course, it being a time of war, they went and did it.

I'm embarrassed I'm able to go on like this.

Oh, and there are hints of Federation cultural critique in the old show in a few folks who remembered Kirk in his academy days, or humans set up as adversaries to the Federation. But those were only hints, and only spoken by antagonists.

[ 04-12-2001: Message edited by: grant ]
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
19:46 / 04.12.01
Originally posted by Deva

"It strikes me watching TNG and Voyager (I single them out only because they're the only 2 I'm at all familiar with) that there are constantly plots about B'Elanna Torres or Alexander coming to terms with their Klingon heritage, or Tuvok or Warf or Chakotay performing their native rituals, etc (usually to fill a 'gap' left by Star Fleet technology). Conversely, the Seven of Nine arc, as she rejects borg culture in order to embrace her heritage as a white American, is seen as "becoming human" - or even "becoming individual" - not as participating in a culture as arbitrary, ritualized and bounded as any other."

Okay maybe I read it wrong but I always got the sense that the Klingon/Native American culture where represented as being richer than the homogenous whiteness of to use your example Seven. I don't think it was done well, it was slightly patronising.

I think the question's slightly loaded with the language you used.

And remember it's not really a Star Trek thread until Ganesh has Christened it.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:12 / 05.12.01
quote:Originally posted by The Redcap's futility.:
I think the question's slightly loaded with the language you used.


How do you mean? I was struggling with what language to use, so I'd be interested to know.

Grant - do you have any episode titles? These sound interesting. (And from what I remember of the few Q eps I've seen, I think you're onto something.)
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:19 / 05.12.01
yeah,,, the "whiteness" of ST always sort of stuck out... well so did those dumbass head-piece make-up jobs that constituted an "alien" ...

reciently read an e-mail joke that coments that the reason you see NO middle-eastern people on Star Trek is because it's in the future & they where one of the many "races" wiped out...

Maybe there's something to that... after wwIII... eugenics was rampent (ala Khan from the original Series & the second movie)... & masave genoside almost wiped out humanity... is an alluded to aspect of Star Trek history.
 
 
grant
14:58 / 05.12.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
reciently read an e-mail joke that coments that the reason you see NO middle-eastern people on Star Trek is because it's in the future & they where one of the many "races" wiped out...

Maybe there's something to that... after wwIII... eugenics was rampent (ala Khan from the original Series & the second movie)... & masave genoside almost wiped out humanity... is an alluded to aspect of Star Trek history.


Khan Noonian Singh was Middle Eastern. So was Julian Bashir on DS9.
Although (eerily enough) I think the genocide is supposed to be taking place *right now.*

Sorry, Deva - with TNG, I'm not so good with episode titles. I'm pretty sure the one with Hugh was called "I, Borg."
The Q ones are really where the commentary comes in explicitly. (And also, one of my favorite things, in a list of human atrocities, he brings up the drug-addled footsoldiers of a Martian uprising. History that hasn't happened yet.) If I recall, they tended to have "Q" in the title somewhere.

Oh, and on last week's "Enterprise," there were some harsh words spoken by a freighter-pilot/vigilante-type to an ex-freighter rat Federation officer. About how he was selling out his family and his heritage to join the Federation. The Federation guy, by the way, is black, so it's all culture and very little race.
Overall, now that I think about it, "Enterprise" seems to make much less effort to be Epcot-World-Pavilion-in-space compared with prior shows. Fewer ethnic cartoons.
 
 
fluid_state
23:03 / 09.12.01
if i remember correctly, in trek-time, the eugenics wars have already happened. Khan owns most of Asia by this point. (please excuse the geekfreek, as the ep. with Khan was on the other day)
 
 
Tempus
02:01 / 10.12.01
No Middle Eastern people?

What about Dr. Bashir on Deep Space Nine? I always got the impression he was rather, you know, Arabic.

Yeah, Khan already happened. The Eugenics Wars were in 1998 or so. Im surprised you missed them.

I think the best example of an inner critique of the Federation is Star Trek VI, in which Kirk has to overcome his own innate anti-Klingon prejudices and fight off a radicalized Starfleet conspiracy.

...must...control...inner...geek...
 
 
sleazenation
08:37 / 10.12.01
As far as race goes Star trek was always get other nationalities and races on the show and even on the side of the 'goodies' but the values they espouse are those that have their orgins in the empire white west. In short All races and creeds can be as one as long as they are under an imperial (and expansionist) federation
 
 
Tom Coates
11:55 / 10.12.01
This is going to sound appalling. Acknowledging that people, on the whole, have the right to live by whatever cultural norms they think is appropriate still allows space for an individual of a species or a race to find a 'better' way of doing things - I don't think any of us would deny that the Borg live 'badly' and abandon many of their rights to 'live as they please' since doing so threatens all other cultures. Similarly one might argue that Ferengi culture 'learns' from being exposed to human culture.

I have to confess I've been rather more interested in the Federation of The Next Generation than anything since - this is a culture where money has been abandoned. This appeals to me as being DRAMATICALLY unlike any culture on earth today. And not particularly 'western'. Having said all of this - in many ways star trek is and always has been a normalisation of western values - and an advert for cultural imperialism. Next Generation being only the least culpable...
 
 
Ganesh
12:18 / 10.12.01
It's all very Blunkett, though, innit? Sure, they may be allowed to keep the occasional 'ethnic' gewgaw (like Worf's lo-o-ovely sparkly sash) but when it comes down to it, not only do they all speak perfect English but they dress in the same flylessly drab lycra tat.

Oh yeah, unless they're granted special dispensation to be low-cut (for extra counselling sensitivity) or an evil (but strangely sexy) leather-clad bisexual parallel self from Dimension X.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:36 / 10.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Tom Coates:
I don't think any of us would deny that the Borg live 'badly'...


Oh, I don't know. Hard-as-nails cyborg hivemind in servience to sinister post-human queen? Where do I sign?
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:24 / 11.12.01
Well the design & Fashion sence of the Next Gen has always be HORRID!!!

Why have no Men had long hair?!?!?

At least in the early episodes you could see the ocassional male ensin in that mini-skirt uniform.

Still... their fashion options where dismal out of uniform.

AND I always wanted to know more about their money-less society . . . How would they get star-ships built?
 
 
Ganesh
22:32 / 11.12.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
Why have no Men had long hair?!?!?


Hmm, that's the one fashion element I always felt StarFleet got right...
 
 
grant
13:04 / 12.12.01
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
Why have no Men had long hair?!?!?


Whorf.

quote:AND I always wanted to know more about their money-less society . . . How would they get star-ships built?

Only members of Starfleet are moneyless, like a far future version of the Knights Templar - all goods and scientific advances are shared equally among the organization. Everyone else in the Federation are their struggling thralls, compelled to weld their hulls and harvest the carbon "fuel" sludge used in the matter replicators.
(talking out of my butt, of course)
 
 
grant
14:48 / 20.12.01
Gender oddness: Last night's "Enterprise" featured the (male) Chief Engineer discovering he's pregnant with an alien baby.
Starts growing a nipple on his wrist, starts having mood swings and food cravings.

Interesting side thing: we actually see the sex act, but we don't realize it's a sex act. He and this female alien engineer just put their hands in this box of gravel and start reading each other's minds. (mindfuck indeed)

Interesting side thing two: it's mentioned in a throwaway line that the males of the species offer no genetic material, simply carry the female's embryo. Parthogenesis is hinted at, but not directly invoked. And, biologically, this didn't explain why the females of the species (evidently) had breasts. Lazy science.

Interesting side thing three: the plot successfully concludes with the man getting an abortion, basically - although it's made very clear that the baby was being transferred to a suitable male host, and that if one couldn't be found, he'd be carrying the fetus to term.

That said, the story was pretty lame. Great elements, good performances, interesting ideas, no sense of narrative flow whatsoever.
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:36 / 21.12.01
quote:
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:
Why have no Men had long hair?!?!?

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
Hmm, that's the one fashion element I always felt StarFleet got right...


well my point was that if Starfleet was so free of gender bias... why were women only depicted with long hair...

Except for Worf... but that seems to only re-enforce HIS cultural shtick... since short haired Klingons are so few & far between...
 
 
Naked Flame
09:36 / 21.12.01
Yeah, and Worf straightened his hair to get away from the usual aging Iron Maiden fan look. Sellout.

quote: I've been rather more interested in the Federation of The Next Generation than anything since - this is a culture where money has been abandoned.

Ever read Iain M Bank's Culture novels? That's a cashless society that's also a massive hegemonising force with interspecies (read interracial) contact rules that mirror ST's to a certain extent.

Banks creates a different sort of utopia- biological and material as well as political- but it might make for an interesting compare&contrast.

[ 21-12-2001: Message edited by: Flame On ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
03:50 / 23.12.01
a couple of thoughts, with apologies in advance for going slightly off topic.

obviously the federation's terror of the borg is just anti-communism. but i have quite a thing for 'the collective'.

i notice, particularly in the original star trek, how the ultimate compliment, if a being shows compassion etc, is to call them 'human'. like they've passed some decency threshold.

it jars with me that beings are referred to continually as 'people', and not, well, beings. wherever they come from.

the gay thing. or lack of it. heard of trekkies saying that 'this condition/disease has been wiped out' (thanks guys!) but quite honestly it is ludicrous for sexuality to be so rigid. i'm not counting the alternative/parallel universe silliness. on a less serious note it seems unfeasible to me that 7 of 9 and janeway aren't together. they're bloody made for each other! but also, 7 of 9 spent one episode searching for a partner. she didn't mention breeding, so why did her logical mind only check out the blokes??

[ 23-12-2001: Message edited by: shortfatdyke ]
 
 
fluid_state
05:51 / 23.12.01
"Just because someone's from another planet, doesn't make them any less human."
-Paraphrased from Enterprise

I really, really like that line.
 
 
Ganesh
11:16 / 23.12.01
I hate that line. Being "human" is somehow universal, then, is it? And that's meant to be a good thing? So bloody arrogant...
 
 
pantone 292
16:10 / 23.12.01
quite so, and symptomatic of the ruthless assimilation of Seven of Nine into embracing 'her' 'humanity'...
btw, sfd, in seasons 4 and 5, 7 of 9 & Janeway clearly *were* together either with Janeway inhabiting the role of Name-of-the-Father, or via the negative oedipal complex, either way their relation was always deeply Freudian [Janeway severs 7 from collectivity, enforces individuation - so-called, teaches her the meaning of 'no', and of deferred desire etc]
the last season was such guff I'm trying, fairly successfully, to blot it out.
 
 
grant
17:54 / 27.12.01
quote:Originally posted by shortfatdyke:
obviously the federation's terror of the borg is just anti-communism. but i have quite a thing for 'the collective'.


I always read that as fear of corporate culture, myself. It certainly gets used that way in offhand references by geeks - as in "I just joined the collective" or "I've just de-Borged myself from that company."

quote:it jars with me that beings are referred to continually as 'people', and not, well, beings. wherever they come from.

Look! He thinks he's people!

Isn't "people" species-neutral in a way "human" isn't?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:09 / 28.12.01
A Borg that wasn't military (kind of only assimilate people that want to be assimilated) seems to me to be quite nice, though that rubber fetish look isn't me...
 
 
grant
13:21 / 28.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Deva:
Does anyone know of any instances where Star Fleet culture (bourgeois individualism) is seen on a level with other cultures, rather than naturalized as "the human"?


It occurs to me that the episode of the old show -- I think it was called "Sheep's Clothing" or something similar -- did this.
(Nope, it's Errand of Mercy.)
It was when the Federation (Kirk) and the Klingons are getting ready to wage a massive war over who owns this peaceful, pastoral, backwards planet of shy shepherd people, the Organians.

In the last act, it's revealed that the Organian shepherds are actually god-like energy beings, who view the Klingons and the Federation with equal disgust, and ends with the revealed, glowing Organians banishing them both from the planet (I think).

Notable for the Klingon leader at the end, smirking over the lack of a battle and telling Kirk, "It would have been glooorious!" in a totally campy way before turning on his heel and cackling back to his ship.




This summary includes this quote:
"I'm embarrassed.", explains Kirk, "I was furious with the Organians for stopping a war I didn't want. We think of ourselves as the most powerful beings in the universe. It's unsettling to discover that we're wrong."

[ 28-12-2001: Message edited by: grant ]
 
 
Ellis says:
17:19 / 28.12.01
I liked the episode of Voyager where Tuvok told a Bajorian that he couldn't wear his earring.
 
  
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