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Asoka, bollywood and the state of movie-going

 
 
mondo a-go-go
21:20 / 13.11.01
i went to see asoka last night, and i urge y'all to go and see it.

like most bollywood movies, it combines a ton of film-making elements, and though it could potentially be a mess, it makes perfect sense and hangs together well. the cinematography is a feast, the incidental music is lovely, the acting is suberb. (kareena kapoor is officially my new hot chick #1)

people who aren't familiar with bollywood (and i by no means consider myself anything like an expert, because i don't get much of an opportunity to see them) always think of bollywood films as being kitsch musicals, and this film should be proof that they are not. yes, there are song-and-dance numbers, but it's not like they just suddenly burst into busby-berkley mode for no reason. they come when appropriate for the story: dreams, village festivals, declarations of love. sure, at these points the imagery often goes into pop-video mode, but i ain't complaining coz they look daaaamn gooood.

asoka has history, action, thriller and romance. there are some spectacular martial arts and swordplay, some painfully emotive moments, some hilarity and it all looks gorgeous. yes, it does sound a lot like crouching tiger, doesn't it?

they're hoping it will do for bollywood movies what cthd did for kung-fu. thing is though, what made cthd so widely distributed in the first place was that it was directed by someone known in hollywood, and bollywood directors will always been marginalised as bollywood directors unless they go to work in hollywood. (and why would they do that?)

and, despite the huge success of cthd, it's not like kung-fu movies are any less marginalised. i can't think of a single cinema in the uk that shows non-hollywood kung-fu movies on a big screen, except at one-off showings. when bruce lee fever was big in the 70s, there were several. and this is the first bollywood film i've ever seen on show in the west end (actually in leicester square, in fact!). even when other bollywood movies have been promoted on tv and in national newspapers, they're never shown anywhere but suburbs with predominately asian communities.

i really resent the way films are marginalised because of distribution companies only eyeing profits. ok, yeah, sure you can argue the market basics, but the success of cthd shows that "mainstream audiences" will watch foreign films if encouraged. much as the media went crazy for the film, it was the word of mouth that made it as popular as it was.

but people just don't get enough of a chance to experiment. how the hell are they gonna know if they like a film unless they get an opportunity to see it?
 
 
Hush
10:36 / 14.11.01
I did my Bollywood induction on a 12 hour flight with Air Lanka this May. The sense of prejudices crumbling away was great; I was watching intelligent, engaging film with dance routines instead of car chases as the stock dramatic device to carry the plot forward while offering visceral visual fun.

Lagan is booked as my next film this month. I will look out for Osoka when it comes round.

Sadly I will have to wait for a dubbed or subtitled version. Where I live we have loads of Hindi films and a hindi TV channel. But no subtitles Arggh!
 
 
mondo a-go-go
11:13 / 14.11.01
i'm sure asoka is playing in leicester. and it's subtitled.
 
 
Hush
19:30 / 16.11.01
It is! and at a main run cinema. But only everyday at four pm.

Thanks for the tip. It's a 12. any good for my 12 year old daughter who loved CTHDragon?

[ 17-11-2001: Message edited by: Ian Jones is not Luke Wing ]
 
 
mondo a-go-go
08:39 / 19.11.01
definitely. though it's 3hrs long so have a visit to the toilet first.
 
 
Hush
18:26 / 21.11.01
It had an interval!

My big girl cried! It was lovely! It relates to one of my favourite books:- creation by Gore Vidal.

But I cannot address the symbolism and my best Hindi mate refuses to discuss Bolywood with me.

So why did we have four instances of Asoka emerging from water in the first half hour? And how does this relate to the filthy bath that he is nearly murdered in.

Why the spilt milk when he remeets K, bothe times?

Why the bleeding nose before he does something bad?

I need cultural referents dammit.

more Indi film for me, Kooky, anyone seen Lagaan (on this Saturday), or Gaanth?
 
 
mondo a-go-go
06:41 / 23.11.01
don't know about the symbolism, though i did notice a lot of water imagery.

apparently no one else here has any interest in this culture. and they call themselves enlightened and eclectic. huh.
 
 
Seth
23:26 / 23.11.01
Kooky: just because people don't post, don't mean they aren't reading.

My Mum loves this stuff. Hopefully I'll see Asoka with he when it hits our indie cinema. I am a Bollywood know-nothing but I love to try new things.
 
 
Hush
05:56 / 24.11.01
I had a drink last night with a bunch of young British asians I work with sometimes. They put a huge distance between themselves and indian values and culture in some areas of their lives, and Indian cinema seems to be one of those. It's not seen as modern I think.

It reminds me a little bit of the welsh side of my family who a generation back refused to learn Welsh or take welsh culture seriously, and are now recanting.

Personally I see embracing global cinema as an act of resistance to CocaColanization. But it has to be good, and it often is.

I remember last year persuading a bunch of mates to see Run, Lola, Run. Their perception is that you just don't notice subtitles after the first few minutes unless you speak the language of the film, then they distract. So subtitles are not an impediment to understanding or fun. Except for clever linguists.

Kooky, I would love to see this thread develop into a wider discussion of global cultural values and templates. Thanks for starting it.


Expressionless, I would like to know what your mum thinks of Asoka. Please get back to us.

Elsewhere Tom and others are discussing the drift from Core Barbelith values. Barbelith is here for discussion you won't get elsewhere. Lets keep it that way.

(I am not hectoring, I am not hectoring anyone).

[ 24-11-2001: Message edited by: Ian Jones is Not ]
 
 
mondo a-go-go
05:56 / 24.11.01
thanks for getting my point, IJin. this thread isn't specifically about bollywood, i merely used a bollywood film as a jumping off point to start a discussion about peoples' perceptions of foreign cinema. and i really didn't think i was that obscure in my intent, which is why i suspected that people were reading the subject-header and switching to something else in a lack of interest. i say this because whenever i try to start a serious debate, it dies by the wayside, and frankly i am a leetle fed-up with only being responded to when i am fluff-posting.

quote:Personally I see embracing global cinema as an act of resistance to CocaColanization. But it has to be good, and it often is.

yep. exactly. if only more people could get to actually see this stuff more often....

quote:Kooky, I would love to see this thread develop into a wider discussion of global cultural values and templates. Thanks for starting it.

thanks for picking it up. now let's see if it goes anywhere.

does anyone out there agree? disagree?

anyone have any ideas about how it would be possible to enable more people to have the choice of seeing these films and not just the latest hollywood blockbusters?

how is the situation in other parts of the world -- places in europe, australia, brazil, smalltown america?

anyone find any evidence about the distribution theory?

anyone able to get hold of foreign language movies at their local video rental place?

come on people, don't tell me you don't have any opinions and ideaas on this stuff. i don't believe you.
 
 
Seth
10:45 / 24.11.01
I think there’s also a question of mainstream representation at work here, not just access and distribution. The marginalisation of foreign language cinema in the UK and America is fed by the way those cultures are portrayed in movies created by our industry. If they’ve only ever seen the Chinese in comedic or martial arts roles or as a sinister communist threat, the majority of cinema goers would probably avoid Chinese cinema even if access were not a problem. The visual association has been made for them: foreigners on the silver screen can’t be taken seriously, and must never be allowed to outgrow their archetypes.

Mum was initially wary about foreign language movies because of the subtitles. I remember coming out of CTHD and asking her when she stopped noticing them. “I thought they were speaking English,” was her reply. There does seem to be an inordinate fear of written language in cinema that’s created the ludicrous idea that a foreign language film is somehow an intellectual pursuit (even Hard Boiled, for God’s sake!). I guess that’s the problem of having an America dominated industry in love with spectacle. The visuals are everything, essential text on screen is likely to remind the viewer of the lack of content therein.
 
 
higuita
10:55 / 24.11.01
Compared to what the situation used to be like, I think things are certainly improving. Living where I do, getting hold of Bollywood videos is certainly not a problem, and even the old blockbuster up the road has a fair stock of foreign language and world cinema. Unfortunately, Mr Ditta's cinema didn't do a roaring trade and closed after only six months, but part of that can be put down to advertising (or the lack thereof).
But, Crouching Tiger did astounding business in the muliplexes considering it was subtitled, and Amelie has been doing good business (or so my old chum at the electric tells me).
Personally, as far as I'm concerned, you can't do any better than warming up the old bakelite tranceiver and settling down to a good four hours in the company of Kurosawa, a cigar and a decent brandy.
Anyone got a copy of Das Boot?
 
 
Seth
11:04 / 24.11.01
Birmingham’s a major city, though. And, to an extent, Southampton is too (my home town). We have the luxury of an indie cinema (voted Britain’s most loved by Empire readers, too: it’s fab!) who are starting to become a little more aggressive in self-publicising - it has a chance of making a little money where we are because we’re large and cosmopolitan enough to have a sizeable multiracial demographic. Look outside of cities and the story is very different.
 
 
sumo
15:36 / 24.11.01
Actually, I think Kooky's finger-pointing in the direction of distribution interests is despairingly accurate.

In South Africa we have two distributors, Nu Metro and Ster Kinekor, whose distribution rights are practically constitutionally enshrined (okay, as far as I know there are statutory limitations on the establishment of additional distributors, but still, utterly fucked up). Ster Kinekor, the larger of the two, created some years ago what they call "Cinema Nouveau" - established experimentally to screen art-house fare that they felt would bomb on the "mainstream" circuit. And unfortunately it does appear that Cinema Nouveau is struggling to maintain its viability as an alternative to the mainstream cinemas. People equate "foreign" with "too cerebral, you have to read the film, and that's just boring as shit." Strangely, once you manage to pursuade someone to attend a Nouveau screening, they love it. And then subsequently seem to forget the cinematic-joy they experienced - almost certainly, I feel, the fault of Ster Kinekor and the direction of their advertising-interests. Case in point: Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was screened by both distributors on the mainstream circuit, in a horrendously dubbed version, and at Cinema Nouveau, in a sub-titled version. It practically became a point of status to have watched the sub-titled version: "What!? You saw the dubbed version? Oh my god, why did you even bother!?" This by people who generally consider it a sign of cinema-adventurousness to watch something like Captain Corelli's Mandolin. But now, mere months later, and Cinema Nouveau, owing to poor support and low attendance, is understaffed, late night shows have been cancelled, and they're entertaining (hah!) the idea of "mainstreaming" the film selection - which basically entails showing english-language indie films while avoiding anything with sub-titles (although this hasn't quite materialised yet).

(Forgive me, I'm warming to a monstrous fucking rant...)

Now, Asoka is actually being screened by one of the Nouveau houses, and I intend to watch it, but it's particularly interesting because although Cape Town has a fairly significant Indian population, showing Bollywood films is a relatively recent phenomenon. And Asoka is being shown in a sub-titled version, obviously to accommodate the money-bearing, largely white, english-speaking mainstay of cinema support.

I'm fairly certain a Hindi-language cinema would be viable, but of course we're faced with the completely fucked up distributors, who exert a strangle-hold on the entire culture-industry. And no, I don't think that's an extreme thing to say. They determine which films can be shown anywhere in the country. Including which videos may be rented by video stores. There is one independent cinema in Cape Town - The Labia, fantastically brilliant - and it tries hard, but it's constrained in the range of their choice. The entire situation is ridiculous: should a video store suffer damage to a particular movie, and neither Nu Metro nor Ster Kinekor still include that film on their distribution lists, that video store is prohibited from re-purchasing a film they already stock. Witness my utter fucking rage at attempting unsuccessfully to re-watch Delicatessen, or Rosencrantz and Guildernstern are dead. Or others, ad nauseum. It's an enormous pain in the arse. I have a list of video stores I phone regularly, trying to locate copies of films that really shouldn't be that difficult to locate. I mean, they must've heard of Akira Kurosawa, right?

I may be straying slightly here, but to bring it back: there is definitely an interest in foreign language films. That interest is stifled by the distributors, who seem to have only a limited understanding of exactly what it is that people wish to see.

(This would be less of a problem if I didn't have to pay for everything from amazon.co.uk or blackstar.co.uk in pounds...)
 
 
Seth
15:47 / 25.11.01
I'd be really interested to do a poll of people's attitudes towards foreign language films. How regularly they watch them; where and how they have access to them; if they don't watch them, why not; what was the last foreign language film they saw, etc. I would be willing to bet that with a truly random cross-section, the prevailing attitude is likely to be disinterest, mistaken intellectual intimidation or scorn. Why do I think that? Well, I know a great deal of people in love with movies who wouldn’t touch subtitled or independent films with a barge pole, even though there’s great access to some of them where I live. I wonder if anyone’s done a poll like this already (might look for net resources later).

I saw Audition for the first time last night. Thoroughly recommended. But it's not eye candy, or easy to watch, and involves work on behalf of the viewer. In my experience, the majority of film goers don't like to work with a film, mainly because a lot of mainstream output is without subtext, with no room for multiple readings and participation. Of course that's a generalisation, but I think it's one with foundation.

“No! All generalisations are bullshit!” - ephemerat in jest

Now, I'm not saying that foreign language cinema always demands a lot of thought (A Better Tomorrow II) - it's just that a lot of people have a mistaken perception that it's only for connoisseurs. This is fed by conventions used in a good many American mainstream films in particular. Don’t get me wrong: access and distribution are important factors. I just think the question is more complex and involves some quite insidious techniques to concentrate money into the mainstream cinemas, studios and distributors.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
08:35 / 26.11.01
this seemed to fit well over here, rather than the harry potter thread:

quote:Originally posted by William Wright:
With reference to the Guardian article, I see the use of 'success' as indeed a subjective judgement, but one that can be gauged on criticism. Though this can be reversed with cases of that become redifined within the form. Video has an ability to undermine poor cinema ticket sales, a la Blade Runner.
What I feel that the article demonstrates is an ever increasing 'corporate' film-making process, that peaks and troughs continually. The article tries to define the process with the inclusion of a simplistic auter analogy. Visible 'auter' director, compared to 'corporate' director. With budgets and reasonings in film-making returning to a type not seen since the vertical integration of the Hollywoood system, I would suggest that this may indicate a rise in more avant garde or progressive film-making.
This I feel will be stiffle by the main cinema chains refusal to screen anything that has subtitles or arthouse content.
The Odeon chain in Britain is inclusive of this, with its refusal to show, Amelie and Brotherhood of the Wolf. A comment from the chain regarding the lack of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon from its theatres was 'we don't carry foreign niche films'. Obviously many awards nominations later, it appears on Odeon screens.
The independent and arthouse film industry is becoming more reliant at this time, on video and DVD hire/retail, but gone is the independent video hire company and in comes Blockbuster. They (Blockbuster) may well have many copies of the hits, but they can fall short on less obvious releases.
Maybe the arguement regarding the importance of the internet, can be the salvation of the moving image. Just hope that we get broadband in time.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
08:42 / 26.11.01
lots to filter. will get back to this.
 
 
Seth
16:10 / 01.01.02
Hey. Time to resurrect a thread, cos it still has mileage.

The following is a copy of a Messenger chat I had with one of my best friends, some of which touched on this subject. Please forgive my impassioned outbursts, especially the ‘Fucking Yanks’ comment (heat of the moment, Mason. I know and love her American friends, and it was simply born out of a lot of angry feelings I have towards a lot of America, especially because of recent world events). No offence was meant.

What do you people think?

Friend says:
cool beans. did you know that Steve hated Crouching Tiger? EVeryone here did, they thought it was lame!!!

expressionless says:
Why?

expressionless says:
That beggars belief

Friend says:
All I can think is that we're weird.. really really weird.

expressionless says:
What's not to like? It's awesome...

Friend says:
We saw a trailer for it on some DVD and I was like "whata movie" they all scoofed and mocked me! BASTARDS

expressionless says:
What did they say about it?

Friend says:
I know. Steve was like "I just didn't buy it"

Friend says:
They thought it was too Matrix!

Friend says:
You should e-mail him, saying why "he's wrong".. he *loves* to be called wrong. hee hee

expressionless says:
Fucking Yanks. Thir film industry has spent nearly a century marginalising the rest of the world in terms of both representation and distribution. They probably couldn't handle seeing Chinese people in anything other than a comedy role. Pricks.

Friend says:
Relight My Fire by Take That and Lulu!!!1 is there as finer song

expressionless says:
Cool. Is "Sure" on there?

Friend says:
yep, just heard it!! coolness.

Friend says:
Ad no one will take me to see Ali. They all made fun of me !!!!!!

expressionless says:
Why? Because it's about a powerful black man? Did they give a reason?

expressionless says:
Maybe I'm just jumping to conclusions, but I'll bet this is the whole ingrained middle American racist thing coming out.

Friend says:
They were like "oh dear. Anything with Will Smith in it... dear me"

expressionless says:
What's wrong with Will Smith? He's no worse than any white comedy actor...

Friend says:
I was like "What are you talking about Will Smith is COOL!!" and they laughed

Friend says:
I KNOW

expressionless says:
Do you agree with my comments on racism, or do you think I'm overreacting?

Friend says:
I actually agree, my friend Mark said that Crouching Tiger was crap and he couldn't watch a bunch of Chinese people Matrixing around. I said "try being a little more racist Mark, it suits you"

expressionless says:
So the fact that the Matrix was a bunch of clumsy white people being choreographed by a Chinese genius who had cut his teeth on so many martial arts films didn't strike them as odd?

Friend says:
For a country with such a diversity in popular, they're remarkabley tunnel-visioned

Friend says:
I know. lol

expressionless says:
Diversity? Sorry, I don't see it. The diversity is created by the marginalisedgroups and subcultures, no the American mainstream, which is almost invariably a homogenising influence.

Friend says:
oh my ride is here. I have to go. By all means e-mail wheat you think about all of this

expressionless says:
Also bearing in mind that the similarities between CTHD and the MAtrix were only in the fight scenes. The rest of the content of the movies was utterly different

expressionless says:
See ya!


I came back and edited this to change the names and replace my name with my Fictionsuit. Suddenly realised that I shouldn't be using people's real names with this sort of thing.

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Seth
17:00 / 01.01.02
The bit that really made me furious was the implication that Hollywood in some way owned the cinematic portrayal of martial arts, because they were used in a sci-fi flick starring Keanu Reeves, and that somehow that was the pinnacle of the genre. It's nearly enough to reduce me to blasphemy.

They were "Matrixing about" indeed. What next? Dismissing Yojimbo as a rip off of A Fistful of Dollars?

 
 
dawntreader
13:31 / 02.01.02
Preach it brother! Somehow I seem more intelligant when I read back over it. I thought I expressed that very clumsily yesterday. But you get the idea.



(I am that 'friend' that IMed that conversation with 'expressionless')
 
 
Shrug
02:04 / 10.05.06
I haven't encountered Bollywood properly as of yet, a few clips maybe; Deewar and such like. Indeed, my main encounter with Indian Cinema has been through the multi-lingual multi-strand Hollywood-ized Monsoon Wedding and Indian art cinema like Pather Panchali.

Monsoon Wedding, of course, pays homage in a number of ways to Bollywood, I think. Song and dance pervade the text (in keeping with diegesis and verisimilitude usually although sometimes not). It's almost as if it were re-interpreting Bollywood for a Western audience at times. Bollywood is the biggest film industry in the world, apparently. Is anyone a fan? Could they tell me anything about how the song and dance routines mesh with narrative, or even recommend some Bollywood?
 
  
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