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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Bob & Rose

Ganesh

20:41 / 10.09.01

The case for:
It's by Russell T Davies (of 'Queer As Folk' fame). It's a brave, honest examination of what happens when a gay (not bisexual) man falls in love with a heterosexual woman. He's skilled enough to portray things with enough subtlety to pass muster on ITV (not renowned for its homo-friendliness) and do justice to the complex subject matter, hopefully avoiding the odious cliche of the gay man 'saved' by a woman (hello, Mr Portillo).

The case against:
He's had to dilute the graphic gay stuff for ITV. It may be viewed, by many, as 'confirmation' that gay men are ripe for conversion by The Right Woman (hey, or Jesus!) Alan Davies' perm-alike hairdo is deeply unconvincing as a pulling accessory on the Manchester gay scene.

Saw the first episode tonight. Superb cast (with the single exception of the underacting Davies, on whose performance the jury remains out) and witty, sensitive, human dialogue.

Good ol' Russell T says it's worth watching because the final (sixth) episode is, he reckons, the best thing he's ever written. After QaF, I'm intrigued...

Ganesh

16:17 / 11.09.01

Bloody hell, someone else must've watched this?

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:36 / 12.09.01

Two words: Abbey fuckin' National.

15:16 / 12.09.01

It's not a perm.
Cunt.

Ganesh

15:51 / 12.09.01

By episode six, you'll aaall be gushing about it...

21:28 / 14.09.01

Saw the first episode and liked it. Yeah, good dialogue, and strong sense of location. I think the writer has been quite cunning by writing it along the lines of "see what you want", depending on your opinions about the subject matter, but maybe that will change as the series progresses.

I also like the way that the story will probably wind up dogmatics on all gradients of the sexual-orientation spectrum. Cheeky.

15:47 / 17.09.01

I shall watch Bob & Rose tonight, Ganesh, upon your recommendation, and give it one more chance. I didn't rate it much last week but then I thought Queer As Folk was unappealing to begin with and then the switch in my head clicked about the end of episode two.
Is this a service which I can expect the barbelithites to supply - heads up on must see tv? I feared that you were all such dome-brained intellectuals that you probably only watched documentaries and Buffy.
Maybe this week Alan Building Society will get his hair straightened as well as his orientation.
Good tunes, mind you.

13:33 / 18.09.01

Sorry, can't bring myself to watch it
because of the central premise.

Yeah yeah, I know it's wrong to just dismiss it off-hand but I really feel that, as Ganesh said, it will be seen as "proof" by many that Gay men "jusy haven't met the right woman yet!".

Gah.

17:06 / 19.09.01

I missed the first episode because I'm an IDIOT, but saw the second one. I thought it was great (though Alan Davis is a bit unconvincing, and I miss Stuart Jones, God how I miss Stuart Jones).

I know what you mean about the dangers, Ganesh, but actually I think that even with the premise (which *really* seems to be avoiding the 'saved by a woman' thing so far) it's far, far better/more "progressive" than (eg) Will & Grace, which I gave up on after about 3 episodes because it was insufficiently gay: it seems to me to be just a 'married couple' sitcom with a daring, risque twist, whereas Bob & Rose is actually (gasp!) engaged with gay politics, self-definitions and emotions.

I'm slightly worried about what's going to happen with the woman schoolteacher (Daisy out of Spaced), who seems to be a bit loony. Am scrutinizing much more for misogyny than for possible homophobic implications, mostly because of the scandalous lack of women in QaF...

Ganesh

14:36 / 22.09.01

quote:Originally posted by Warewullf:
Sorry, can't bring myself to watch it
because of the central premise.

As a whole host of 'authorities' said about the Brass Eye special...

07:36 / 24.09.01

Good point.

Ganesh

21:10 / 24.09.01

Funnily enough, I'd just finished watching last night's episode when I took the fraught "what you do is like murder" call from my aunt...

The restaurant episode was a bit contrived but I loved the altercation on the street afterwards, when Rose's angry ex-boyfriend couldn't bring himself to hit Bob. Okay, his 'convincingness' has been a bit wobbly so far, but Alan Davies' "I am not bisexual!" bit was spot-on.

07:49 / 27.09.01

I still miss Stuart Jones.

Well, I think more accurately what I miss is the lack of a straight perspective in QaF. The point of Bob & Rose is the clash of straight & gay cultures, so instead of the wonderful "Vince goes to a straight pub" scene in QaF we got the "Rose out on the pull in a straight club/Bob out on the pull in a gay club" scene. In some ways, this denaturalizes str8ness by pitting both club cultures, their rules & conventions, against one another: but it doesn't feel as liberating to me because it doesn't have the disorienting (for TV) effect of inverting the binary & taking the gay scene as 'the norm'.

I'm also a little disappointed that the sex Bob & Rose are having is so cinematically conventional (only kissing on the mouth & what looks like vaginal penetration - man-on-top, no less! - being shown). I know they have to tone it down for ITV, but it seems to me to be contributing to the sort of conventions for 'what sexual activity can be shown and how' that made me spend half of Buffy S4 with my eyes shut (Buffy/Riley...)

But, hell, it's still better than anything else on telly at the moment. I just like bitching.

Ganesh

07:55 / 27.09.01

I think the gay and straight scenes might mingle a little more next week, when Bob and Rose do the whole 'meeting partners' friends' thing. I'm curious to see how the whole thing is eventually resolved...

And yeah, there's a lack of sympathetic straight male characters - well, perhaps Rose's ex was sympathetic, but he was also rather dim. I'm interested also to see where Russell T goes with the psychotic fag hag; in these chicklit days of 'a girl's best friend is her trophy poof', it's refreshing to see someone explore the darker corners of the gay male/straight female dynamic.

Ganesh

09:53 / 28.09.01

quote:Originally posted by Deva:
But, hell, it's still better than anything else on telly at the moment.

Absolutely - and I really don't understand why more people I know aren't completely raving about it. Quite apart from Russell T's writing, the whole 'British pseudo-gritty' thing appeals to me far, far more than the overly slick, glossy US teen stuff. I'd happily pick the likes of 'Bob & Rose', 'Clocking Off', 'This Life' or 'The Cops' over 'Buffy'/'Angel'/'Dawson's' anyday. The realist approach just seems much more compelling, to me.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Our Lady of The Two Towers

09:53 / 28.09.01

quote:Originally posted by Deva:
I know they have to tone it down for ITV, but it seems to me to be contributing to the sort of conventions for 'what sexual activity can be shown and how' that made me spend half of Buffy S4 with my eyes shut (Buffy/Riley...)

Buffy/Riley makes me shut my eyes anyway...
[/threadrot]

10:39 / 29.09.01

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:
I'm interested also to see where Russell T goes with the psychotic fag hag; in these chicklit days of 'a girl's best friend is her trophy poof', it's refreshing to see someone explore the darker corners of the gay male/straight female dynamic.

Oh yes. That was the only bit I liked in (what I saw of) Will & Grace (before I gave up on it as being insufficiently gay): where Grace suddenly told Will "I don't want you to tell me you're gay again" and got serious for 2 1/2 seconds, about how his coming out had changed *her* life and *her* expectations...

At the moment it just looks like psychotic fag-hag woman is there to "prove" narratively that Bob is, indeed, not bisexual. I hope RTD does something more with it, though - particularly after reading some articles on slash and straight-female identification with gay-men as a feminist tactic. (The idea was that faghaggery was a way for str8 women to imagine a way to love men sexually on a mutual, equal basis, without getting slammed into a heterosexist template for m/f relationships.)

Ganesh

22:56 / 29.09.01

quote:Originally posted by Deva:
(The idea was that faghaggery was a way for str8 women to imagine a way to love men sexually on a mutual, equal basis, without getting slammed into a heterosexist template for m/f relationships.)

That's really interesting; I hadn't previously connected slash fiction and faghaggery in my mind although, now you mention it, it seems obvious. It's a compelling structure on which to hang the gay man/fag hag dynamic although I suspect much Real Life faghaggery derives more from sexual timidity on the part of the female than from a conscious desire to explore the 'less-travelled' paths of male/female interaction.

Fourth episode on Monday. I have no television (as yet) in London, so my partner will have to record it for me to view on Friday when I get back to Edinburgh. Yay!

08:21 / 30.09.01

Does this mean we should avoid spoilers till Friday?

Ganesh

22:16 / 05.10.01

Yeah. Just watched it with {lovely, gorgeous) partner.

It gets better and better. This week's 'meeting friends and parents' episode combined subtly-pitched acting with oh-so-familiar observation and the most fabulous set-pieces ("STOP THAT BUS!"). Somehow, it manages to move me and make me laugh in equal measure. It's the best thing on television at present; I really can't understand why people are discussing fodder like 'Buffy' rather than 'Bob & Rose'. Oh well. I guess they'll 'get it' on the repeat and I'll look hip and groovy.

Why aren't you watching it, Barbelites? It's the best thing ever.

Regrettable Juvenilia

07:15 / 06.10.01

I'd imagine that the presence of Abbey National man prejudices me mindlessly against it in the same way that the presence of pretty Americans and fantasy elements prejudices you against Buffy, old chap...

Ganesh

08:23 / 06.10.01

Nah, I've watched my fair share of 'Buffy'; it's the best of the bunch, really. And my initial doubts about whether Alan Davies could be convincing in the gay-man-in-love-with-a-straight-woman role are pretty much dispelled.

08:23 / 06.10.01

I wanted to watch it, honest... but I can't get ITV. And I *like* Alan Davies, sort of...

21:10 / 06.10.01

And I missed it!

Grrr. Pissed off. Daresay they'll repeat it someday for me though.

How's the psychotic fag-hag going, Ganesh?

Ganesh

13:22 / 08.10.01

Her evil 'keep telling Bob how much you love him' plan backfired, leaving her sobbing with frustration and actually becoming quite a sad, sympathetic character. I'm really interested to see ol' Russell T goes with her.

Ganesh

13:50 / 09.10.01

Monday's extended news coverage meant my partner's pre-setting of the video only recorded ten minutes. I'm holding Bin Laden personally responsible.

<loses veneer of liberalism>

Kill them! Kill them all!

20:00 / 10.10.01

Now, now, Ganesh, why not blame the West's warmongering media instead?

[Warning: there are spoilers from about 2 paragraphs down.]

I sympathize enormously... the woman I live with failed to tape it as well but I got in (from anti-war meeting, plume, plume) at 9:30 and must have caught most of it (I wondered why it ended at 10:20).

Anyway... this won't make you feel any better, but it really caught fire for me this week. *Wish* I'd seen the 'meeting each other's friends' episode now.

Very, very screwed-up scene intercutting Daisy & Rose having cybersex (using Bob's ID) with someone with one of Bob's friends talking about the shag he'd had... tremendously erotic to us fagh... er, slash writers.

If I were to kvetch, I would say that RTD's blindness to lesbians continues - the scene I mentioned having 2 women participating in 'sex', but only via men, while the m/m scene it was intercut with was... well, directly sexual.

*Great* (non-)wedding scene between Rose's mum and Trevor. I quake slightly, since it turns out that his debts resulted from MGM suing him for printing a fanzine using copyright images from James Bond movies, and I'm currently editing the world's first all f/f Blake's 7 zine including a spoof "Queer as Folk" cover.

Damn, my analytical brain has gone to sleep. I should follow its example, since I have to go and varnish vast expanses of wood at 8am tomorrow.

Ganesh

09:38 / 19.10.01

Just got home (for the weekend) and spent two solid hours watching the last two episodes, with (non) wedding scene, parental reconciliation, Holly's redemption, etc.

The final episode, in particular, has to be one of the most moving dramatic instalments I've ever seen; it managed somehow to combine fairy-tale with bittersweet, and be profoundly optimistic yet aware of possible pitfalls. As I've said many times already in this thread, I simply cannot believe that intelligent, gender-aware individuals have ignored a subtle, intellectually-complex, accessible yet immaculately-written gem like 'Bob & Rose' yet lavish praise upon the likes of 'Buffy', Trek, etc. If you haven't followed 'Bob & Rose', you've missed out on something wonderful. Dullards...

20:39 / 22.10.01

Hmmm. Okay, I'll watch the last episode again: I was a bit disappointed in it (*loved* the non-wedding episode, though) - mostly because I was, perhaps predictably, getting very interested in the relationship between Rose & Daisy - which turned out to go nowhere - and I thought the resolution of Daisy's general fucked-upness was a bit hurried and implausible. Also felt a little peeved at the "Gay, straight, we all fancy men, don't we?" tone of the ending... But I'll rewatch it in a less just-having-moved-house mood and see how it grabs me.

Ganesh

10:56 / 23.10.01

Gawd, I didn't read the ending like that at all. I agree, Daisy's unfuckingup was a little hurried, but it was a fairy-tale...

18:56 / 23.10.01

Just my habit of identifying with minor characters, I think. Will get back to you when I've seen it again.

06:50 / 07.11.01

Ganesh!

Have you seen this Guardian article?

Scary stuff....

quote: Not long ago, straights didn't automatically expect to be allowed into gay venues. Those turned away on Saturday night, though, are hopping mad. "It really winds me up," shouts a woman in a miniskirt. "We love everybody, whether they're gay or straight. If we haven't got a problem with them, why should they have one with us? I told that bloody bouncer, it's bang out of order."

quote: By midnight, a pair of middle-aged women are looking for a taxi. "We came to get away from our husbands, we thought it looked fun on the telly. But we're a bit on edge, 'cause it's just the two of us. I don't really think much of it. We've decided to go and look for something a bit more, well, normal.