BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


WW2 allegories, baseball, non-linear time and lounge singers

 
 
Seth
21:32 / 04.09.01
This started off as a TV recommendation in Conversation. Anyone up for discussing the themes/characters/story/flaws of the series that made Gene Roddenberry spin in his grave?

I thought some of you may appreciate being clued in on some fantastic TV on tonight, 6.45 on BBC2. One of Deep Space Nine’s greatest episodes is being shown (“Tacking Into The Wind” ). Even if you are wary of anything Star Trek or DS9 related, I thoroughly recommend checking it out – it’s fuckin’ ace and shouldn’t be missed by any self respecting cult TV fan.

The story so far…

- It’s all out interstellar war! The good guys (hooray!) are the Federation (including the Bajorans), Klingons and Romulans (very unsteady, suspicious alliance). The bad guys (boo! Hiss!) are the Dominion, Cardassians and Breen (also a very unsteady, suspicious alliance).

- Shit: they’ve got superweapons! The Breen (boo! Hiss!) have a damn big gun! Only the Klingons shields can defend against it, while the Federation and Romulans are toast! How will good triumph over these impossible odds?

- Noooo! The Klingons are totally unreliable! Martok, their cunning and skilled general, has been usurped as coordinator of the war effort by the underhanded, scheming Gowron (ruler of the Klingon emperor). Gowron is jealous of Martok’s popularity and is seeking to discredit him by making him lead suicidal attacks – Martok’s sense of honour prevents him from disobeying down his leader’s orders. It looks like the last line of defense is tearing itself apart due to internal strife!

- But wait! Hope is at hand! There is a rebellion forming within Cardassia, headed by their rogue leader, Damar (hooray!). The Federation have dispatched Kira, Odo and Garak (hooray!) to help train them in guerilla warfare and espionage (bringing those three character arcs full circle in a most satisfying way).

- But it’s not all a bed of roses! None of the Cardassians like or trust Kira, cos she’s a filthy Bajoran (see the unsubtle Nazi Germany/Jew analogy!). Will they bump her off before she can help them overthrow the enemy from within?

- Muthafuck! Odo (hooray!) is dying! He’s one of the Founders (boo! Hiss!), who have been suffering a fatal disease. Will he die before he can fulfil the mission?

- Underhanded scum! The Founders don’t have a natural disease – they’ve been poisoned! By the holier than thou Federation, no less! What raging hypocrites – they’re totally bug-eyed genocidal!!! Actually, it’s not quite that bad. You see, there’s a totally unaccountable, ruthless internal security faction of the Federation called Section 31. It is they who are the poisoners! Still pretty damning, though, as they unofficially have the approval of the Federation in their extreme tactics. Can the heroic Dr. Bashir and his best friend - Chief O’Brien - find a cure before Odo bites the dust? And will they even survive the dangers of trying to thwart Section 31’s masterplan?

It’s the best characterisation you’ll ever see in cult TV. Wicked acting. Tremendous scope. Lurvely effects – it’s just too ambitious for TV! Will you ever recover?

Help! Back me up, Jack! Before these cruel BBLith bastards get all sarky!

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]

[ 06-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Ellis
21:38 / 04.09.01
The last few episodes are really good.

Pity the season finale was shite though.
 
 
Seth
10:25 / 05.09.01
It has its moments. Gets better with each rewatching. But there are much better episodes than the final episode. Tonight’s, for example.
 
 
Seth
10:27 / 05.09.01
The series finale is still better than every single good episode of Voyager put together, times a million.

Oh, wait. There were no good episodes of Voyager. Scrap that theory, then.
 
 
Ellis
10:31 / 05.09.01
I thought the "Year in Hell" two parter was pretty good.


Would have been better with TNG crew though...
 
 
Seth
10:35 / 05.09.01
The "It was all a dream" style ending was awful. Gutted the power of the episode when they hit the Trek reset button.

DS9 was fab for not having a reset button.
 
 
Ellis
10:40 / 05.09.01
DS9 had Garak.

The best episodes were those featuring Garak (the plot to get the Romulans into the war was excellent) or Section 31 (when Bashir goes to Romulus) and Eddington doing the Les Mis. It's a shame that more episodes weren't as good as that.
 
 
Ellis
11:49 / 05.09.01
I agree with you on everything Expressionless EXCEPT Vic Fontane. He was just so... silly.

Although Sisko's reason for not taking part in the holodeck was very good, I thought that was a strong point of characterisation (that it painted an unrealistic portrait of life back then cause there is no racism).

And Nog is a good example of character progression, as was Jake actually, and Damar.
 
 
Ellis
12:10 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Rizla Year Zero:
[QB]Well, this thread has done a great job of making me EVEN LESS INTERESTED IN THE POSSIBILITY OF WATCHING STAR TREK than I was before. Which takes quite some doing.
QB]


Why?
 
 
Seth
12:10 / 05.09.01
What they did with Damar in the final season was awesome. Do you remember when he first appeared (way back in season four, I think, as the helmsman on Dukat’s freighter)? He only had one throwaway line in the whole episode. Is was gutted when they snuffed him (but then, that’s the kind of random, unexpected stuff DS9 often throws in. Groom him to be the first wise, kind Cardassian ruler, then shoot him at the final hurdle. It makes Cardassia’s comeuppance more powerful: there’s no messiah to help them rebuild).

I partially disagree when it comes to Jake. He was too often ignored by the writers, and virtually vanished in the seventh season. However, he did have some great moments (“The Visitor,” his war reporting, etc). Oh yeah, do you remember the weird Coen brothers style episode with the Cellular Entertainment and Rejuvenation Pod (whatever it was called)? Very funny.

As for Vic Fontaine – do you remember that moment in “It’s Only a Paper Moon” when Nog asks him whether he dreams? He looks totally lost, afraid and wrongfooted: he honestly has no idea. That one episode justifies the whole lounge act nonsense. DS9 still has the best holodeck episode outside of “Ship in a Bottle” (the James Bond pastiche, with Sisko playing Dr. Noah, the arch-nemesis). Very silly, but well written.

Oh yeah, as for silly, let’s not forget “Trials and Tribbleations,” the Trek anniversary episode. Brilliantly put together, hilarious, great effects. The moment where Worf has to explain why the Klingons look like tanned humans made me piss my pants.
 
 
Seth
12:17 / 05.09.01
quote: My own closed mindedness astounds me sometimes.

Uh huh. I’m not sure there’s anything that I wouldn’t at least try on recommendation.

Yeah, I know there’s a lot of duff episodes of all four series (the entire of Voyager was shite). Some of the films were duff. However, a lot of it is blinding. LIKE TONIGHT’S EPISODE! The good stuff easily outweighs the crap, IMHO.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
12:48 / 05.09.01
yes, well, if they ever decide to show it in the uk, i will watch it. i saw a preview of it at san diego last year.

and i too will not watch star drek

why is this in the conversation?
 
 
Seth
13:08 / 05.09.01
I didn’t intend for it to develop into analysis. It was supposed to be a really quick recommendation, and I thought it was better placed in Conversation as it gets more casual readers during the day. I already requested for our kind moderator to move it tomorrow.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
15:50 / 05.09.01
He's right, you know. Tacking Into The Wind is one of the best episodes, troubled for the casual viewer only because it comes near the climax of a long story arc, which you'd have to read the little one's first post to properly understand.

Go for The Visitor, Far Beyond The Stars, or In The Pale Moonlight if you want a more stand alone, stand out episode.

And the only reason that Harlan Ellison couldn't have written Far Beyond The Stars is that serious emotion, like Benny's crying fit at the end, worries and unnerves the old bastard.
 
 
Ganesh
18:56 / 05.09.01
%Oh no, I've missed it.%
 
 
Saint Keggers
02:28 / 06.09.01
Expressionless: Thank you. I no longer feel the need to watch DS9 anymore. You're retellign of it was even better than the actual show. Almost like an episode of Flash Gordon.
In the future could you possibly watch the following shows and then retell them so that I dont have to watch them and will enjoy them even more than if I had anyways.
1) Passions..I couldnt get into so please tell me whats happening
2) Wheel of Fortune..I hate this show so please watch it and make me like it.
3) M*A*S*H I loved this show and would like to love it even more.
4) SCTV..I don tget what was so great about it..please let me know.
5) Buffy the Vampire Slayer....I love this hsow and would like to get as many people as possible watching...same goes with Rosswell.

Thanking you in advance,
Kegboy
 
 
johnny whatif
06:52 / 06.09.01
That was a really good episode... Cheers for pointing that out, expressionless, i would've missed it, probably.

Do you know if BBC2 are running the whole last series - will the next bit be on next week?

Y'see - <hangs head in Trekfan shame> i've seen all but the last series of DS9, and i kinda want to now...
 
 
Seth
06:52 / 06.09.01
Cheers, Kegboy. I’m now considering this as a career. The MASH saga may seem a bit repetitive after a while, though.

Johnny: The last series is great – some amazing episodes, some average/dullish ones but no total shite. As far as I know, BBC2 is following it in sequence, which means you’re just a few weeks away from the grand finale (which was a bit disappointing, only because it was far too ambitious for the television medium. Feel that budget stretch. They had to resolve character arcs for about thirty characters: not something I’d like to attempt in 90 minutes. See what you think).

Ganesh: So did I.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
16:49 / 06.09.01
Yeah, you've got it on video, our kid.

I often wonder why Ganesh keeps coming to read these threads about Trek, when he hates and despises it without measure. I wonder what a psychiatrist would say about that...
 
 
Seth
20:24 / 06.09.01
Don’t know if any of you noticed this (it was never explicitly dwelt on in the show):

Sisko spent two years designing and building the Defiant class of warships. These ships are designed specifically to destroy the Borg. Sisko’s wife was killed in a Borg attack immediately prior to his time as a ship designer.

It’s just a fantastic example of his superhumanly obsessive grudge bearing (see also: destroying a planet’s life sustaining atmosphere to thwart Eddington). “You killed my wife - now I kill your race!”

Nutter.
 
 
Ellis
20:34 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:

Nutter.


That is why he rocked.

It is rare to find to a character so intense in Sci-Fi.

He was willing to let his son die because of his faith in the Prophets, I mean... even the Kai didn't want that fight to happen (although she was an evil bitch).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:16 / 06.09.01
I keep missing this fucker. It basically got completely great and mental and kick-ass when the war broke out... That episode where Sisko, looking like he's a few screws loose to say the least, explains to camera how he brought the Romulans into the war, and how he can live with it... gave me chills.
 
 
Seth
13:37 / 07.09.01
Fantastic. That episode is also one of Andrew J Robinson's best as Garak. After Sisko twats him his body language totally changes, from respectable, mannered (you could almost say “tailored” ), to reptilian, creeping and alien. Suddenly the façade drops and we see him as he really is. Great piece of acting.

Anyone remember the villain from Dirty Harry?

What about Dukat? I was amazed by what they pulled off with his character. Take a vile, womanizing head of a concentration/forced labour camp, make him so beautifully nasty that you start to quite like him, then spin him around and make him an exiled terrorist anti-hero (losing all his status for the sake of his daughter). Everyone loved him in season four (even Kira stopped her vendetta). Then restore him to power, and in the space of five minutes betray everyone to the enemy. Finally, have him lose the respect of his superiors, lose his daughter, lose his marbles, and bring him back as David Koresh in the last act, the acolyte of DS9’s Satan equivalent.

The fact that a Star Trek series dared to make Hitler a sympathetic and three dimensional character shows how brave, different and downright messed up DS9 really was.

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Ganesh
14:21 / 07.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack The Bodiless:
I often wonder why Ganesh keeps coming to read these threads about Trek, when he hates and despises it without measure. I wonder what a psychiatrist would say about that...


Passive-aggressive displacement, probably; saves provoking endless arguments with the boyfriend by wandering into the room when he's glued to The Franchise and asking, for example, whether, perchance, those using the Holodeck have opted for a holographic experience based in - ooh, wild guess - 20th Century (or, wild imaginative leap, pre-20th Century) Earth. Just for a change.

So, you see, by allowing my sarcastic venting, you're saving my relationship. Carry on.
 
 
uncle retrospective
15:52 / 07.09.01
My fav DS9 Ep was the one where Sisko lies and cheats to get the Romulans in on his side.
Cold blooded murdering and unrepentant.
Good stuff.
 
 
Seth
18:08 / 07.09.01
I’m starting to detect a theme here.

I don’t know if I can pick a favourite. I love “Rocks and Shoals.” The scene where the Vedek hangs herself on the promenade as an anti-war, anti-Dominion statement is incredibly powerful, as is the scene in which Jake’s interview is curtailed when he points out that Kira and Odo are effectively outlawing the right to free protest on the station. I makes Kira’s change of heart (to return to her terrorist background) totally believable (her performance is perfect). This is counterpointed by the second plot, concerning Sisko and the Starfleet crew outsmarted by a vicious bastard Vorta. Also has the funniest ever DS9 moment: “I tore my pants.” Guess you had to be there...

[ 07-09-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Seth
22:21 / 09.09.01
I just watched “The Shawshank Redemption” and was surprised to see William Sadler playing an inmate (he plays Sloan, the only Section 31 representative we get to see). I was further amazed by his acting ability (already impressive from his three DS9 episodes). He’s the guy who gets the “Alexandree Dumbass” line.

I love that episode where he sends Bashir to infiltrate the conference on Romulus. I actually prefer it to the one where Sisko gets the Romulans into the war. Great performance from Sadler, breathtaking performance from Alexander Siddig (the boy done good). Great plot, nicely handled fucked up morals, great ending (“Should I applause... should I feel pity for your terrible burden.” Bashir positively dripping righteous fury).

Bashir’s character development throughout the series is fantastic, and totally unexpected. From irritating Starfleet groomed over-enthusiastic English cipher, to brooding, morose, super-cynical spectre (gaunt and haunted). And he gets the girl!
 
 
Ellis
17:02 / 12.09.01
Tonights episode was absolutely brilliant, far better than last weeks and one of the best of the season.

Bashir's and Miles' conversation while they were dying was excellent, perfect characterisation showing a great friendship.

Bashir being a total hardass- becoming like Section 31 to beat them.

Very well done.
 
 
Seth
19:57 / 20.09.01
I dunno. I thought it was a bit padded out, and the scenes inside Sloan’s mind lacked bite and weirdness. Considering the episodes that act as bookends, it focuses in one place too much. Not enough scope, should have had other elements juxtaposed against the main story thread.

Saw the penultimate episode yesterday. Fuck me, did they misuse Quark. He could have been much better. Remember the episode where we became a pariah for getting involved in arms smuggling? Should have been more war profiteering, as Armin Shimmerman quite rightly said.

It has its moments, though:

- Paraphrasing Sisko and Bashir’s dialogue at the start - Bashir: We plan to kidnap an extremely dangerous, genocidal man, strap him down, drug him, and then use illegal memory scanners to rip the closely guarded secrets from his mind - Sisko (half heartedly putting on a show of being angry): Go for it! With my blessing! I’ll help you cover it up! No, really! I don’t give a flying fuck! And to think - seven years earlier, they were both misguided idealists.

- When Bashir wakes up to Ezri. Ahhh...

I saw Emissary again on Tuesday night (the pilot). Very moving how the characters start the series, looking back from being aware of how it all ends.

- Dukat: I did this one earlier, I think.

- Nog: Starts as petty thief, stereotype Ferengi, becomes war veteran and pilots the Defiant in the final battle. Ends the series as Lieutenant.

- Odo: Starts not knowing who he is or where he came from, loner, fascist, ends up getting the girl and giving her up to pursue leading his people to enlightenment.

- Ben Sisko: Starts as disillusioned single parent, can’t get over his wife’s death, becomes soldier, prophet, apostle, insane grudge-bearer par-excellence, more up for a fight than the Klingons, ascends to next stage of evolution and becomes a god.

Avery Brooks is incredible in the pilot. The second half (taking place in the Celestial Temple) is brilliantly done, as he explains time, actions, consequences, growth, and change to the Prophets (who help him come to terms with his wife’s death in return). For an audience used to episodic Trek, it’s a brave opener, and lets them know they’re in for something different.

Shame Voyager had to ruin it by going back to the episodic format. From what I’ve heard, Enterprise is closer in tone to DS9, so we should get the arc plots and character development back on the agenda.

Here’s hoping...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:34 / 29.09.01
Scott Bakula can do no wrong. None.
 
 
gentleman loser
19:34 / 29.09.01
Best DS9 episode hands down is "Duet" from Season 1.

To this day, it's the only Star Trek series ep. that has moved me to tears.

After the Dominion War got cranked up, I kind of lost interest because the series got far too out of scale and the characters got a little bit too superhero for my tastes.

Going way offtopic, to RiffRaff, I'm going to start a Invader Zim / Johnen Vasquez thread somewhere soon.
 
 
Seth
16:03 / 01.04.03
Is anyone else buying the DVD boxed sets?

Amazon are giving a pretty big discount from shop prices. I received Season One in the post just over a week ago, slowly working my way through it.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
19:25 / 01.04.03
The best episode not yet mentioned was the one where the Defiant crew and a Jem'Hadar attack ship crashed on the same planet. The Jem'Hadar supply of ketracel white was running out, and the Weyoun knew this. He parlayed with Sisko and arranged to betray his own Jem'Hadar soldiers.

As the ambush is going down, Sisko parlays with the Jem'Hadar captain, and tell shim that the Weyoun betrayed them. The captain replies that he knew; Sisko asks why they followed an order designed to send them to their deaths. The captain replies that "He did not have to earn my loyality. I belong to him" or words to that effect. It was great.
 
 
Seth
04:37 / 02.04.03
Definitely. It's also got the b-plot where a Bajoran religious leader commits suicide on the Promenade as a protest against complicity with the Dominion occupation of the station. The scene where she hangs herself in front of the massed crowds is fantastic, totally took me by surprise the first time, her Vedek headgear hitting the ground as her neck is broken. Some great acting from Nana Visitor and Avery Brooks.

It also has the funniest moment I've seen in any Trek series: "I tore my pants!"
 
  
Add Your Reply