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Majestic!?!

 
 
Mystery Gypt
16:46 / 22.08.01
I don't know the best section for games, i feel this is the closest. And I don't know if this thread has been covered, but...

Anyone playing Majestic? What's the deal? What's the juice?
 
 
Mystery Gypt
21:02 / 23.08.01
does that mean no one plays it? the big conspiracy breakthrough game of the medium? and no one plays?

crazy.
 
 
invisible_al
10:20 / 24.08.01
Well unlike the game that was run around thee film AI (look up cloudmakers on google for that one), its only available in the states. Damm your yankee hides :-)
I quite fancied it, I mean a cross between a the film The Game and a computer game, one that rings your house, I'd pay for that.
 
 
johnny whatif
11:33 / 24.08.01
Majestic? Game? Explain, please?

Only bell it rings in my mind is some conspiracy-type tv show. I have a vague idea that Lance Henriksen was in it. Or was that Millenium?
 
 
Molly Shortcake
13:43 / 24.08.01
Majestic, the game that plays you.

[ 24-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper ]
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
13:51 / 24.08.01
man,i played the evan chan murder game and never solved a damn thing, now im supposed to pay to be baffled?
screw that

EDP

PS the end of AI bit ass, just my opinion of course
 
 
johnny whatif
13:53 / 24.08.01
IH/GR - cheers.

Oh. My. God.

I want to play this. So much. Why only in the States? Does anyone know if anything similar might be in the works for the rest of the planet? That sounds like a lot of fun.

Hmm... Combine that with a little LARPing, keep the amount of players small... Yeah, that could work... Hmm...

[wanders off muttering and scribbling in notepad]
 
 
Mystery Gypt
15:35 / 24.08.01
you're going to be seeing a lot more of these kinds of things over the next years, trust me. you've know idea how many people i've met -- including myself -- who created things like this long before majestic, but no one got it. weirdly, big studios are enchanted by the idea and it looks to me like they'll be pumping them out in a number of different ways.

may guess on the US only thing is that its not a bias but they probably don't want to get into making tons of international phone calls, and maybe there's server issues as well. maybe that'll change too. write to EA and tell 'em you want it -- that's how they learn there's a market.
 
 
Lost in a Moon Puddle
18:57 / 24.08.01
quote: you've know idea how many people i've met -- including myself -- who created things like this long before majestic, but no one got it.

Mystery G, would you go into this a little bit more? I'd love to hear about other instances of this idea; also, what other "studio" type games of this nature have you heard about?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
09:40 / 25.08.01
I played the first chapter of the game. Sadly, my home computer is dead so I haven't gone on any farther nor subscribed. It was a pretty fun experience. Coming home to spooky messages regarding the game on my answering machine and getting into AIM conversations with the game's autoscripts was fun.

It's got an interesting metafiction to the plot as well. It all starts out...

SPOILED LIKE MY KNICKERS

... when you sign up to play the game. In the midist of the tutorial, the system you're connected to crashes. Through AIM messages and email, you learn that something shut the system down. You're soon directed to a local news site that is showing live coverage of the company that made the game's headquarters burning down.

It then becomes a quest to find where the backup server is (easily aided by voice mail and faxes) and log on in order to communicate with the people who used to work for the company. The game's programmers are fleeing across the country out of paranoia and the networking guy is crashing with the network server trying to figure stuff up. Meanwhile the lead developer is presumed dead.

You see, he was being fed information from a consultant who was apparently feeding him REAL classified government information. You discover this when you use game information on a corperate website and eventually are given access to photos of what appears to be an implant of some type.

And that's just about half the stuff in the free demo.

It's fun.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:40 / 25.08.01
Sounds like third-rate X-Files uber-wank to me.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
15:11 / 25.08.01
Oh, plotwise it is generic conspiracy stuff. However, one interesting thing is that is gives you links to all sorts of conspiracy sites and such, very few of which actually have to do with the game.

The thing is the interactivity, really. It AIMs you and emails you and calls you and faxes you. It really pulls you in.

Of course much could be said on what kind of society feels the urge to artificially construct a sense of paranoia for fun.

Much could also be said on whether disinfo.com lost credability when they agreed to provide contend for MAJESTIC.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
06:12 / 27.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Lost in a Moon Puddle:


Mystery G, would you go into this a little bit more? I'd love to hear about other instances of this idea; also, what other "studio" type games of this nature have you heard about?


Hmmm... let's see... about 1.5 years ago i worked for an advertising company creating a game for a major liquor brand. The concept was, people signed up for the game, then got an email from us saying that the game was cancelled because the designer disappeared. you were led then to his homepage, where you saw his game portfolio, etc, then found his links to a rave/cult that preached uploading the human mind onto the internet...

i created a document treeing out the whole game, i art directed a bunch of the websites, we were setting up a phone line where playes could call the (fictional) game designer's officel the emails, the ims, the whole thing. Then the creative principle who hired me quit, and the execs killed all the projects. fucking retarded. i might have a couple sample pages up somewhere on my site at liquiplex.com, can't remember if i actually linked to prototypes or just have a screenshot.

at first i thought majestic / AI were actually ripping me off, but like i say ive been meeting other people in the same boat, so im willing to call it zeitgeist.

i moved on and started trying to pitch console games with internet plug-ins. but as it turns out, major players in the game / entertainment industries are keen on the potential about this kind of stuff. i'm developing one right now -- i can't say with him, but let's make a deal -- in two weeks or so when i find out if we're greenlit, i'll let you know then --
 
 
Molly Shortcake
04:37 / 30.08.01
Mystery Gz right, you're gonna see more and more of these types of games. I've been hearing about them for years. Dosen't particularly res w/the prototypical gamer but has massive mainstream potential, just like the sims.

Just what we needed, more sustanance for those silly X-files freaks.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
14:00 / 30.08.01
the thing to be excited about is the idea that this technology is going to -- or at least, has the potential to be used, in the near future, for art and literture beyond the slight use that games put them through. the increase of "majestic style" is at its core about interactive storytelling, rather than just new ways to spin conspiracies. imagine a future where we're doing experimental video games, romanti comedy video games, adaptions of literature video games.

we often on this board collectively complain about how weird it is that 90% of the entire graphic / sequential art story mode is devoted to guys in bright tights; "video games" as we call them now will soon be at a similiar sort of crossroads.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
17:37 / 30.08.01
The current majectic model is optimal for conspiracy type games. What becomes of it remains to be seen.

Video games already are interactive storytelling. I'm sick of people putting down games (not that you were) becase they don't necessarily have 'literary' narritives, video games don't need them. They have narratives of space, time, action and so fourth.

That being said, I'm all for a good story. Code Veronicas was amazing and actually legitimized those stupid puzzles throughout the series. Who else has the time, money, or inclination to put such effort into such preposterious, elobaorate rouses? Aristocrats. Genious. Fits in with the corporate/nazi theme very well.

Videogames present power fantasies far better than comics could ever hope to do.
While superhero comics ultimatelly try to legitimize themselves thorough some sort of realism, even the most absurd, hyperreal styled video games are rooted in simulation -hence, they end up being far more 'realistic'....

The video game market is at least six times as diverse as the comic book market.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
19:15 / 30.08.01
now i wish i had played code veronica
so all the stupid puzzles are a "what would you do if you were really rich and really bored" kinda thing?
neat

Anyhoo, the AI game felt so groundbreaking, i think mass marketing it will make it feel cheap
 
 
Molly Shortcake
20:23 / 30.08.01
quote: so all the stupid puzzles are a "what would you do if you were really rich and really bored" kinda thing?

Yeah. That's all aristocrats do.

The story involves evil corporate shadow wars, split personalities and twin clone gender bending nightmares. It has incestual, master-race, hive society overtones. Any more and i'll spoil it for you.

Oh yeah, It's also got the titanic storyline woven into it and a Leonardo Dicraprio clone. Those wacky Japanese.

What's stopping you? It's still one of the best games out there. You could get a used Dreamcast for 70 bucks, VMU 10-15, RE: CV 16-20.

Or you could buy RE:CVX for PS2, the battle game is unlocked from the start, it has ten extra minutes of Wesker cutcseens, a Devil may cry demo and Albert Wesker report disk. Sweet.

[ 30-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper ]
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
20:47 / 30.08.01
you are my new favorite barbelither
 
 
Mystery Gypt
16:09 / 03.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper:
The current majectic model is optimal for conspiracy type games. What becomes of it remains to be seen.

Video games already are interactive storytelling. I'm sick of people putting down games (not that you were) becase they don't necessarily have 'literary' narritives, video games don't need them. They have narratives of space, time, action and so fourth.

That being said, I'm all for a good story.


yes. but narrative and story are two different things. I have read comic and books and scene movies that have made me cry. Most great examples of stories from all three of these media take you through a range of emotions, created seemingly out of thin air, which is very much like a magic trick.

I havent yet scene a game that has emotional development. Playing the game, you feel involved, nervous, excited, frightened, etc. But you don't get to transcend mundane existence by the enactment of polarized emotional values and the revolation of true character. Story is the subset of narrative that does these things. Do you know of games that have this effect? Do you think it would be desireable or even possible?
 
 
The Strobe
19:32 / 03.09.01
It depends on the technique of creating story.

Hideo Kojima believes, and it's a good point, that you can't tell story whilst someone is playing. When they're playing, they're handling the action, the tension. By contrast: to show TRUE story, and progress a plot, and maybe emotion, or whatever, you have to cut away. If you've played Metal Gear Solid, you'll see this in action perfectly. OK, so that game was a little bit melodramatic, and the story was almost too big - but I was on that rollercoaster all the way. (Also see: Max Payne. Very fine shooter, with a good plot conveyed through scenes from a graphic novel that break up the game play).

By contrast, you can develop story through "feel". Probably the best examples is one of (IMHO) the best videogames ever, Fallout (and its sequel). Here, you simply let the player do anything. Hugely open-ended, a true RPG. The player became involved with characters _himself_, and didn't need to advance the plot to advance charactersiation. I can give examples if you wish, they're quite long winded, but I became more involved with the other characters myself, without them ever being important to the main plot. The thing is, it's these NPCs that matter for Narrative emotion, and that are so hard to create. It's what's _outside_ the main narrative that matters, surely? You kill the bad guy, you win the game, but do you care?

There are two alternatives, and they are almost mutually exclusive. If you want to really stress that story, get people involved - you're going to make a short, linear, but hopefully memorable game. I finished MGS and MP in under six hours. Not because i'm good at games, i'm not really, but because that's all there was. And I loved every minute (well, certainly of MGS, MP was paced badly at the beginning) and can remember it all. CF big, sprawling, impersonal RPGs where I can't give a rat's arse.

But if you're careful in the big sprawl... you can provide enough background info to really great an atmosphere, and generate enough emotion to keep the player going when they're outside the track of the narrative (which is usually very loosely linked in such games - see Fallout, Baldur's Gate, and similar vast things.

In the end, though these excellent games ALMOST get there, they don't, not like a book or novel does. And there's a reason.

Choice.

EDGE published an excellent article called "can videogames ever be art?" and the answer they came up with was "no", purely because "art cannot involve choice". You can't involve someone when they can decide what's going on. Because you can't cover for that, and that detracts from any feel the author wishes to create. Sure, you can get close... but you'll always fail. It's an excellent article, I recommend it hugely to anyone vaguely intrested in such topics.

Hell. I've spooged and made a mess. SUmmary: no, but people have tried, and there are two ways, and both can be as good as the other - but it's ultimately impossible.
 
 
invisible_al
20:38 / 03.09.01
Paleface you ever played Planescape : Torment? Its by the same team who did Fallout and it comes a lot closer to emotional involvement than Fallout 1 or 2 did.

Its a darn sight more involving than Baldurs gate 1 and 2 as well. This is probably because it has a much tighter narrative, while still having some of the sprawl and side quests that don't break the mood.

Its one of the few games ever that has made me as emotionally involved as a film. Admittedly that's because these parts are more tightly plotted than the freeform bits but you still have a choice on how to go on.

Do you think the MMPG on-line games that are coming out will come closer to emotional involvement than other games have previously, as most of the inhabitants are players so to speak?
 
 
Molly Shortcake
04:04 / 04.09.01
IMHO video games have the potential to eventually surpass film and print in terms of (meta)narritive, emotion and immersion.

Parrappa the Rappa is heartwarming, I cried, almost.

I think assorted RPG's fit the description you posted. Strong narritives and stories make or break the genre.

As you've noted video games push lots of buttons. It's just a matter of figuring out how to push the right ones.

I've become emotionally attached to some video game characters who got killed off in the middle of a game, most notiably Nei form Phantasy Star 2. I used to feel horrible about 'killing' the beautifull dancing phoenix girls in Revenge of Shinobi, they scream, fall to their knees and wrap their arms around their shoulders when they 'die'.

Resident Evil, Code: Veronica, for example, is a major step in the right direction. Claire Redfields face is amazingly modeled, textured and animated. You can feel the fear, terror and dread emmanating from her very subtle and realistic facial gestures. Her eyes track enimies and she turns her head to check out striking parts of her environment as she walks by.

(I'd like to point out that the Resident Evil series has socially relevant narritives. Although classified as horror it's really cyberpunk with prominent horror overtones).

So I'd say more varying animations, gestures and subtleties can have varing emotional effects on players and viewers. Don't forget the importance of AI, see below.

Assorted clips from a Gamespot Half-Life feature.

Michael Abrash says that Valve realized something early on that helped it craft a highly balanced game: "For the most part, level designers can't design games," he says. "What Valve figured out was that you needed a creative committee to design a game. A level designer worries about things such as how to lay down the bricks, but not necessarily the story and the scope of the game."

From the outset, Valve was intent on building a game around a story and not vice-versa. It wanted to make a dense environment that provided for something new around every corner. Valve wanted living and breathing characters. A plot. Puzzles. And a lot of action.

With that idea in mind, last summer, Valve commissioned novelist Marc Laidlaw, whose award-winning novels include Kalifornia and the 37th Mandala, to help flesh out the plot and characters. "We didn't want the story to rely on one character coming and telling you the whole tale at one point and that was it," explains Laidlaw. "We wanted to gradually ease the player into the story and provide little clues along the way."

So, Valve created a cast of characters that would inhabit the game - Einstein-esque scientists who would talk to the player, security guards called Barneys (in homage to Don Knotts' role as the pretentious, lovable fool on the Andy Griffith show), and of course the player, Gordon Freeman. "In a lot of shooters," cautions Laidlaw, "for all you know, you could be a weapon walking around a level. It's pretty clear in Half-Life that's not the case."

Another major area of innovation for Valve was in artificial intelligence. Although a lot of games promise advanced intelligence, Valve spent months developing proprietary technology that would actually make enemies work together in packs and flocks. Dave Mattson, a web master at the popular Half-Life fan site halflife.org remembers when Gabe Newell gave him a demonstration of the game's AI. "Gabe showed me this map that only contained four Houndeye enemies," he remembers. "One of them quickly assumed the role as leader and stood on his lone hind leg and watched our every move, looking for signs of aggression. The other three creatures cautiously began exploring their surroundings - sniffing the floor and licking bloodstains. It was incredible."

"Finally, there are characters more than enemies, and more than guys that just stand around waiting to be killed."

As Newell sits at his desk discussing the game, he remembers a wonderful anecdote about his play experience the night before while he was testing. "I was playing this level in the game where you have to escort a scientist through the whole level and make sure he survives because he needs to help operate machinery," he recalls. "I was having a really good time, and all of the sudden, he was killed by an enemy. To be honest, I felt just terrible. I felt guilty. I was engaged with these people on a level where they had been working so hard for me. I felt like I owed them protection." After all the redesigns and reevaluation, Newell was finally getting the gameplay experience he wanted out of the game.

Tim Sweeney, who created the Unreal engine, was similarly impressed with Day One. "Half-Life is the first game I've played that really feels like you're playing a movie," he remarks. "Previously, all those interactive movie games felt like watching a slow, poorly made movie and having to stop every 10 seconds to click somewhere on the screen." Sweeney also thinks that Valve has upped the ante for other developers. "They've set a new standard for immersiveness. Other game developers will have to work very hard to compete with them."

[ 04-09-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Grim Rapper ]
 
 
The Strobe
10:29 / 04.09.01
I've played PS:T. Very, very impressive, but just too big and slow - 2 hours and I'd only just got out of the mausoleum. For the first time. I don't like the way the combat looks nice and realtime, but you have to pause like hell to get anything out of it. But the Bioware/Black Isle writing is streets ahead of anything else... look at the brief glimpse of Deionna you get early on. That just _works_.

Half-Life doesn't work for me. I mean, it excites me, it's a fab game, and has a strong plot... but it's all gut emotions: fear, tension, excitement, all adrenaline. There was some interesting points about telling a story entirely through 1st person: Freeman starts out as a lowly scientist - but he adapts to surive. That's why later on, when a scientist says "you look like you know how to handle that thing", you're reinforcing in the character's mind that you're actually quite tough now. It's an excellent example of this - but not a way to deliver emotional content.

Compare all this, too, to Deus Ex - a game that to my mind delivers fantastic story through pure information - the denseness of plot, and all those books lying around, just builds the atmosphere itself. Emotional involvment? Not really.

One day, when I have an entire holiday to devote to it (I tend to play game mainly in holidays, not termtime, so I have time to get involved with a plot, and also because it's an easier activity to do when I'm at home on my own, as opposed to surrounded by mates), I will continue with PS:T. I already can tell it's remarkable, and is superbly written. I just need to get into it. And good at it.

And if anyone comes up with a Massively Multiplayer version of Fallout, I'll probably lose all the money I have. Not just a fantastic game, a fantastic universe.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
03:18 / 11.09.01
Why are game stories so bad?

I was going to write a long involved post about how if a video game had a involving emotional narrative it still wouldn't be any better than Pac-Man. This guy did it for me.

An exerpt:

quote:When someone asks me if I want to check out an interesting story with great dialogue, the first question I ask is not, "Which computer game are we going to play?" The best computer game story I've ever seen was the one where my orc-man kept getting extra strength and dexterity points, or whatever. There was some kind of rationale for this, but since the rest of the game just consisted of me clicking my mouse as fast as I could for about five hours, it didn't really make a whole lot of difference. Still, I didn't need a really clever reason for the fact that two strength points from now I would get to use a cool new sword, because that in itself was pretty much good enough for me.

And in the opposite corner we have Wagner James Au, who I can't possibly disagree with more on just about everything.

Taking the inherent nature of video games into account, simulation, hallucinatory replay, choice -- and the possibility of emotional content, aren't we setting ourselves up for some major hyperreal mindfucks ala videodrome? (I hope the Silent Hill 2 dev team reads this post)

This seems to be the exzact opposite of what people like Au have in mind. Personally, I can't stand it when someone says games need to be XXXX. I think they can be many different things.

[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey/Turbo Shark ]
 
 
The Strobe
11:17 / 11.09.01
I disagree. Well, slightly.

You can have a great game without a great plot. Pacman. Paradroid. Donkey Kong. Spycatcher. These are true _games_: the pleasure is in the playability, the challenge, the fun.

You can have great games with lousy plots, you just skip through the plot parts and play it as a "game" game.

But in some fields of game, such as the adventure, the RPG, the plot is vital. These games are ABOUT plot, they're about discovery, they're about maintaining interest. There's no physical difficulty in controlling Guybrush Threepwood, just cerebral difficulty in solving the problems in the game. But the problems are held TOGETHER by the plot. Without, it may as well be a loose collection of lateral thinking problems with no theme.

So whilst it's not essential, it's a field that is important in some genres. And some people are expanding its importance into other genres. The Salon article on Max Payne fails to point out the flaw in the game: the plot and game seem to be seperate devices. Whilst the plot is reasonable, if a little-tounge-in-cheek, the moment you cut back to the game, you solve all your problems by putting 10 million bullets in things. That doesn't work. In fact, it only works towards the end, when you realise quite what you're up against, and Max essentially goes nuts: THEN, when you're legging it trhough (spoiler) the forgery, the labs, and that skyscraper finale, Max knows he's damned, and the only way out is to shoot every last motherfucker in the room. Why? Because when it comes to it, it's one death that counts. And to get to her, he has to kill anything in his way. Earlier, I felt a more sedate, less violent path would have been effective - but that would be the path of an adventure, and Max is clearly a shooter at its heart. Still, once you hit the Russians in the docks in Chapter II, everything takes off. The run through the burning building, whilst essentially a maze, is a fantastic piece of tension lifted from cinema - around every corner, there's a new surprise. It's surprisingly good towards the end, but I played the first half with my heart in my hands. And the fact that an artform/whatever refers to itself is a sign of its maturity, not being "clever" and "meta".

Back to the point: people want to extend the importance of plot because we're so used to it everywhere else. Our novels, our movies, in general, the intelligent public like a plot that motivates them, throws up unexpected twists, and generally carries them along. Games are beginning to ape cinema, because cinema is popular and works. When you do that, you lift cinematic plot devices.

Planescape:Torment doesn't ape cinema, it apes literature. The mainly text-based dialogue is superbly written, and characters are well-rounded. And on the way you have to question the nature of mortality, your own immortality, and the nature of memories. That's the reason to play: it is interesting, it is compelling. Many people will not, because they'll say "if I want that, I'll read a book". And they have a point: we already have delivery systems for this kind of information, why do we need to interact with it? Many, many people play games for _fun_. Many people don't have time for acres of plot, they want a short, exciting, replayable game, and hence the vast popularity of sports games and the like.

Games are progressing, though: developers want to attract the "general public/popular gamers" to play games that deliver what cinema and novels do. They want to make games more like life. See Deus Ex: it looks like a first person shooter, but it plays like an RPG... but the overall experience is more than that. There's this vast plot, full of conspiracy theories, you're at the bottom of it, there's information overload, and cultural reference. That's all sneaked in behind the first-person RPG cover... but in fact it's the crux of it. As we give people more interaction with the game, we have to satisfy them on more fronts - and so we have to make the _reasons_ for playing more advanced and more complex.

By contrast: I've just begun Resident Evil 2 for a laugh. And it's great, but it's great in the way any good explotiation movie, such as Assault on Precinct 13 is: plot is hokey, acting is dreadful, but _what tension_. This is the easiest emotion for videogames to generate: going for the balls. Scaring you witless. That's the whole premise of the game, and it works fantastically. The plot is very hokey, just like any good horror movie, but the scares are genuine.

I've rambled a lot, the post isn't very structured, and this little window is hard to formulate thought in. To finish: when the guy from Gamespot says "When I'm playing a computer game, what I'm really doing is pretending that there is no anatomy skills exam on Monday and that it is just as important to infiltrate the gnoll stronghold as it is to know whether or not neuroligin-1 induces synaptic differentiation. In fact, I'm not even thinking about that complicated stuff because games exist to make me forget that it even exists. I don't need some literary device to distract me from the fact that I haven't studied neuroanatomy in two weeks. Clicking on the blood hawk things every two seconds will do just fine.", he's not someone who wishes to further _what_ games do, he's someone who enjoys them _because they are fun and a diversion_, like all games, not because he wishes to be stimulated and challenged. And that's fine.

You've just got to remember that people are always trying new things. And you should encourage this, not condemn it because it's not to your taste.

I feel a zine article coming on.
 
 
Molly Shortcake
22:10 / 11.09.01
I agree. RPG's and Adventure games are based around plot and narritive and are plenty emotional, no arguement there. (I still remember how bad I felt at the end of Phantasy Star 2).

However, I don't think it 'advances' the genre either, it's just different. If it suits someone better, that's fine - we need all sorts of games. (You should know that RPGs and adventure games are among my favorite) Just call me the anti-elitest gamer.
 
 
Sensual Cobra
05:54 / 22.09.01
Oh yeah, my bad, I play Majestic. I'm beta testing it and just started episode three. I think it gets better as you go on - in a way you decide how immersive it's going to be. You can whip through the episodes pretty quick if that's all you want to do, but if you spend the time reading background documents and doing some research, you realize how interconnected it all is.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
07:46 / 08.10.01
So what's the deal with Majestic being shut down / taken offline?
 
  
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