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Continuity- Important or Unnecessary

 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:28 / 06.08.01
Right, this topic doesn't necessarily have to stay here, it's just this was where the bulk of my drunken geeky argument with True Art was on Saturday night.

How important is continuity? We were talking about the new Star Trek series and I was complaining that it would probably ignore and slice'n'dice what we know about Star Trek history. Does that matter? (cue snide remarks from people who don't care about Star Trek) Are there different levels of continuity for different media, should we not expect as much care from ST as we would from a great 20th century novel? Should continuity be allowed to get in the way of 'a good story'?
 
 
Molly Shortcake
15:36 / 06.08.01
Yes and No. (Gee, that really helps). For something like Star Trek with it's rabid and obsessed fan base, continuity is extreamly important. Any Star Wars product (based on film or original) has to endure strict continuity tests that take months. Even Aeon Flux had some continuity.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
15:40 / 06.08.01
I think that continuity is a nice thing that should be used, but not too much. Grant Morrison, in his two issues of New X-Men, has done a really good job at doing continuity 'right': He's using X-Men history, but making it very easy to understand... he's not acting like all the comics before him didn't exists, he references them when the need arises, but in a very simplified, streamlined manner. X-Men is probably the best example anyone can come up with as for continuity done the wrong way....the majority of the X-Men stories of the past decade were based on creating stories from the continuity, it was a very cannibalistic thing that only appealed to hardcore continuity nuts.
Continuity is a necessary thing for any serialized fiction... it's a nice little bonus that can only be achieved in that form of fiction. It should never be the basis of the fiction, though.

In the example of the Star Trek thing, I can't help but feel that any continuity gutting and overhauling done to that franchise couldn't possibly be a bad thing.
 
 
tracypanzer
15:55 / 06.08.01
Where outside of comic books and soap operas is continuity an issue? Nothing else ever seems to stay around for that long, and it seems to be handled pretty well in both of those mediums (follow it until we decide not to). And the feeling I get from Star Trek is that it's all about continuity, honoring what has come before, the Prime Directive, and such.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
15:58 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by tracypanzer:
Where outside of comic books and soap operas is continuity an issue?


Series of books and movies, like Star Wars, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Babysitters Club, etc, etc, etc.
Continuity is a big part of sitcoms too.

Serialized narratives of any kind rely on continuity.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:00 / 06.08.01
On his forum, Warren Ellis recently said something like "Continuity is important to people for whom comics is a lifestyle, rather than an entertainment."

The man is often wrong, but he's not in this case: and it applies to film and TV as much as to comics. A story's either good or it ain't. If it's good, it's good in and of itself--as opposed to being "good" because it adheres to some set of arcane, arbitrary criteria.

In the case of TREK in particular, I think that it's too much to ask for it all to be utterly unified. The idea of TREK as a self-consistent universe is a relatively recent one--and from the original series onwards it's been the work of dozens of writers and not really the product of a single creative vision.

quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
Serialized narratives of any kind rely on continuity.


I'd disagree with that in that I'd narrow the definition: Only if there are two or more authors involved. If a single writer like Tolkien or JK Rowling contradicts hirself to no purpose, then it's just sloppy writing, pure and simple.

[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
16:11 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack Fear:
On his forum, Warren Ellis recently said something like "Continuity is important to people for whom comics is a lifestyle, rather than an entertainment."
]


That seems to be on the money...but I'd say if the producers of Friends suddenly decided that when the show returns in the fall, the two lead characters who got married last year were suddenly not married and the engagement was written out the story, the people who watched that show would be confused and a little annoyed considering that it took out two or so years of the shows stories. I don't think its something that only applies to comic and sci-fi geeks...it applies to anyone who has some kind of investment in a serialized fiction, healthy or unhealthy.
 
 
tracypanzer
16:19 / 06.08.01
It depends on how it's handled. They wrote in a sister on 'Buffy' this year and did a pretty good job of it.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
16:31 / 06.08.01
quote:Originally posted by tracypanzer:
It depends on how it's handled. They wrote in a sister on 'Buffy' this year and did a pretty good job of it.


Well, that doesn't break any continuity rules, does it? I've never liked Buffy, so I'm not really up on that sort of thing, but adding a sister didn't contradict anything, right? No big deal. It's not as if they erased the librarian guy from the story retroactively or something...
I think fans get more upset when characters act blatantly out of established type, or when things get 'retconned' (that's a fanboy term if there ever was one) out of the storyline...
 
 
tracypanzer
16:38 / 06.08.01
They played w/ the whole continuity idea by introducing her and pretending that she'd always been around. And then when you thought they were just going to leave it at that, they go and explain everything. It was a really clever thing to do for something that is bascially a live-action comic book series.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
16:43 / 06.08.01
I've never really understood the appeal of Buffy, personally... every episode I've seen just seems dumb, like the worst teen tv mixed with an even duller X-Files...

and then I read things where people go on about how smart it is, and I just can't see where they are coming from..
 
 
CameronStewart
18:10 / 06.08.01
A-fuckin'-men to that. I've tried repeatedly to watch Buffy, based on the rabid gushings of certain friends, and each time I've tried I've been utterly mystified at what all the praise is about. Every one I've seen has been dull, poorly-written, terribly performed, and just plain irritating.

"Well, you just haven't seen the right episodes," say my friends in defense. If the programme truly is as brilliant as they say, shouldn't I have stumbled across one of the good ones by now?

By all means, enjoy the programme, but for Christ's sake don't try to tell me that it's "smart." You're fooling no one but yourselves...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:11 / 06.08.01
Ooooh no, I'm not letting you bastards rot my thread and turn it into another Buffy discussion

quote:Originally posted by Jack Fear:
On his forum, Warren Ellis recently said something like "Continuity is important to people for whom comics is a lifestyle, rather than an entertainment."
The man is often wrong, but he's not in this case: and it applies to film and TV as much as to comics. A story's either good or it ain't. If it's good, it's good in and of itself--as opposed to being "good" because it adheres to some set of arcane, arbitrary criteria.


But that's treating continuity as some bolt- on extra to a story, whereas I believe it's an integral part of it, along with giving the characters names and deciding how they look. Or is Warren preparing us for how Transmet is going to end, the President is suddenly just going to not exist any more?
 
 
Ria
19:20 / 06.08.01
what Flux said seems relevant to the risk incurred not only to the X-Men but to any collective serial fiction when a) the creators become aware of their audience and/or b) fans go pro within that continuity.

it has happned in my own special 'pet' continuity (Doctor Who). and others.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:16 / 06.08.01
I think an element of continuity is essential for any ongoing drama series, whatever medium it's presented in. Without it you immediately hamper your chances of building a bond between the characters and audience. That's a central part of an ongoing series - the audience have to care enough about the characters to come back for the next installment, they have to want to know how these people are coping, how their lives are going. Look at soap operas and tell me I'm wrong. It has to be backed up with good writing, but I'll come back to that in a minute.

If you're going to produce a series that has no continuity, you may as well do it as a number of one-offs.

This seems to me to be the point. Continuity is entirely dependant on the type of entertainment you're aiming to produce. Series like Buffy exist because of their continuing narratives - it's a fundamental part of them. Yes, a great deal of the episodes work on their own, but each also includes a nod at the very least to the basic, more important stroyline running through the series, even if this link is only provided by one or two lines of dialogue. This, possibly, is the main fault with X-Files - there is a single story threaded through the series, but it's so loose, inconsistent and rarely acknowledged that it's nigh on pointless it being there at all. Better in this case, surely, to make the programme as a number of individual episodes, a la The Fugitive.

Here we have Richard Kimble, sentenced for murdering his wife, on the run from the law. That's it as far as continuity goes - you take that basic premise and see what you can make of it for the next 50 minutes. Next week you satrt over again - Richard Kimble, sentenced for murdering his wife, on the run from the law. There's plenty of series' that follow the same plan - the original Star Trek, Night Rider, Charlie's Angels. It's like giving ten writers the same first sentence and asking them to each spin a story from it - other than that first sentence, each story will be independent of the others.

As for Star Trek, the attempt at an ongoing narrative there has always struck me as being somewhat half-arsed. Other than the reliability of certain characters there's little continuity involved, and when it pops up it appears to be tacked on as an afterthought (or a cheap plot device). If you're going down the continuity route, you need a solid foundation to build from, and you need to reference past storylines and develop past themes to a greater degree than any of the ST series have done. This is where continuity becomes A Bad Thing. If you can't think of anything for next week's episode, hey, fuck it, put the Borg back in. The week after, we'll forget that any of it happened, but no doubt the Borg'll come back at some stage. Only to be forgotten about again, etc etc etc. In the wrong hands, in the wrong series, continuity is simply used to cover over the cracks in writing ability.

Urk. Big post. Hope some of it makes sense.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:13 / 07.08.01
Loz: see my caveat above about the concept of "continuity" only applying in cases of multiple authorship.

Getting sick of repeating myself, here and in other threads. Doesn't anybody read these things through any more?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
12:54 / 07.08.01
I think what we're talking about is masking itself behind the word "continuity". Why not define the concept, so we can more clearly see what we think of it?

I consider continuity a sort of homogeneity of occurrence - that is, what happens does not contradict what else is happening or has already happened.

That said, it is only necessary if what you're looking for is a linear, sensible narrative. Something that doesn't give your audience a jolt every once in a while, distracting them from what is actually happening, I guess.

Continuity is a tool in fiction. Sometimes you want it, some people work best without it (i.e. David Lynch, William Burroughs) and some pieces only work because the continuity isn't solid (i.e. The Usual Suspects)
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:20 / 07.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack Fear:
Loz: see my caveat above about the concept of "continuity" only applying in cases of multiple authorship.


Not quite sure what you'er getting at now, are you suggesting that if loads of different people are writing stories for Star Trek they are allowed to ignore continuity because it's too much effort? On Doctor Who it was always the script editors job to make sure new episodes didn't ignore continuity, I assume Star Trek has someone similar if not someones. And while I'd agree that the concept of continuity in Star Trek only became important once it was clear Next Gen would be a success they have rather tied their colours to the continuity mast with episodes like the DS9 one where Doctor Bashir is interrogated by Section 13 or the episode of Voyager where Seven finds 'evidence' for various plots based on the entire history to date of the show.
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
14:36 / 07.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Ray Fawkes:
I think what we're talking about is masking itself behind the word "continuity". Why not define the concept, so we can more clearly see what we think of it?)


Continuity in the fanboy sense would mean a strict observance of everything that has been published in the story's "universe" of character and concepts, and having everything work together so that everything makes total sense when cross-referenced. This means that there are loads of rules for what a creator can and can't do. This means that the stories must always contain something that references another piece of fiction in that universe.

What Grant Morrison and Joe Casey are now calling "super-consistency" is slightly less geeky....it's a more laissez-faire system, nothing that came before is contradicted, concepts are shared, it just means that you don't stomp all over the fanboy's blessed continuity, but you try as hard as you can to not invoke it.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:46 / 07.08.01
Loz: Was referring to this: quote:Originally posted by The Ungodly Lozt and Found Office:
...that's treating continuity as some bolt-on extra to a story, whereas I believe it's an integral part of it, along with giving the characters names and deciding how they look. Or is Warren preparing us for how Transmet is going to end, the President is suddenly just going to not exist any more?
With TRANSMET, as with any single-author work, notions of "continuity" do not apply. There is only good writing and lazy writing.

That is all.
Normal service now resuming.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:03 / 07.08.01
Okay, I think we're talking about different things. I'm using continuity in the sense that in a story, A is followed by B, which does not contradict A, and is followed by C, which contradicts neither A nor B... regardless of whether A,B and C are written by the same person or different people. Perhaps by basing my example on Trek I wasn't making this clear.
This is the only reason I can see for your saying that continuity doesn't apply to single writer work. In the way I'm using it it obviously does, it's as important as knowing how to type.
Have I got things straight now?
 
 
Jackie Susann
22:07 / 07.08.01
Yeah, the continuity errors in Sweet Valley High really annoy me. For example, in Sweet Valley High #8 Regina gets kidnapped and the gang decide they have to rescue her themselves, because if they call the cops she'd only get hurt. But how come none of them remember the time they were 12 and Enid got kidnapped in Sweet Valley Twins #34? I realise the former was written ten years before the latter, that's what makes it so annoying, no consistency.

If I was writing for Sweet Valley, I'd run the first ever company-wide crossover, Crisis on Infinite Sweet Valleys. It would reveal that all the different series - Sweet Valley Kids, Sweet Valley Twins, Sweet Valley Friends, Sweet Valley Junior High, Sweet Valley High, Sweet Valley Senior Year, Sweet Valley University, etc. - all take place in parallel dimensions. Well, the heroes of all these alternate Sweet Valleys are united when a hideously evil force starts destroying all the Sweet Valleys for his anti-Valley. The various twins even have to team up with the villains - and not just the multiple Bruce Patmans, but dozens of incarnations of the Evil Twins. In the end only one Sweet Valley would survive - an amalgam of all the Sweet Valleys, past and present. Worlds would live, worlds would die, and Sweet Valley would never be the same.
 
 
RadJose
05:33 / 15.08.01
yeah yeah, continuity is a good thing if used all the time, fuck, i have to watch that damn buzz lightyear show at work and they seem to only use continuity when it suits them... it's annoying... yeah i don't like buffy either... and RIGHT OFF THE BAT the new ST series is breakin' a BIT of continuity by havin' the Klingons look like the Klingons we know today from voyager, deep space nine, and next generation, instead of the old skool klingons who were for the most part, african american men w/ gotees and bushy eyebrows...
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
15:28 / 15.08.01
quote:Originally posted by radjose:
...the new ST series is breakin' a BIT of continuity by havin' the Klingons look like the Klingons we know today from voyager, deep space nine, and next generation, instead of the old skool klingons who were for the most part, african american men w/ gotees and bushy eyebrows...

point of pedantry: I once asked a star trek-obsessed pseudofriend of mine about said same point, he claimed that in the century between ST and ST:TNG the klingons got into the habit of building metal plates into their heads, or genetically modifying their foreheads or something. A hell of a cludge to get around improvements in alien makeup, but it does raise an interesting point: continuity errors give obsessives something to apply their creative cludging skills to, and devising explanations for crap continuity can be an artform, which may, possibly, inspire interesting or unusual future plot developments...
or maybe not. It gives the fanboys something to argue about at least,and it keeps them off the street....
 
 
Mr Tricks
19:03 / 15.08.01
Hey i seem to recall an episode of DS9 where the crew goes back in time and has a secret mission on the original ST enterprise.

They even made the visual joke of Warf checking out those human looking Klingons... His companion asked
"Are they Klingons?"
Warf replies: "Yes"
"But they look human"
"Don't ask..."

Anyway, I read somewhere that when Klingons first encountered the Federaton they looked like they do now... but a particular "clan" desided the geneticly enginear themself to appear "more" human for the sake of interacting with the Federation and eventually over throw it. This "clan" rose to power durring the original series... but fell out of favor soon after the series' cancelation. Afterwards the more "pure" "Imperial Klingons" (I believe they were called) returned to power and virtually erradicated these Klingon/Human hybrids striking their pressance from Klingon history etc....

Um, yeah Continuity can be fun, & yeah it seems to be a major interaction point for the audience...
In the hands of a good story teller it can be used to elevate the tail beyond it current context. Take the scene of the Giant Sentinal Fist smashing Magneto... with-out the reference to continuity, that particular bit of Dram would not have been as potent.
 
 
grant
13:30 / 16.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Johnny Haiku Headed Racoon-Dog:

point of pedantry: I once asked a star trek-obsessed pseudofriend of mine about said same point, he claimed that in the century between ST and ST:TNG the klingons got into the habit of building metal plates into their heads, or genetically modifying their foreheads or something. A hell of a cludge to get around improvements in alien makeup.


My favorite explanation for this was part of the strategy game, which came out around the time the second movie did. Their theory: the only Klingons you saw on the original show were all patrolling the human/Klingon frontier. They were all actually half-breeds, begotten on human (or humanoid) colonists by raping and pillaging Klingon raiding parties. They could never fit in on the homeworld, so they just got assigned out to the borderlands. Made sense at the time.

Err, I'm exposing my geekitude, ain't I.
 
 
Tom Coates
20:58 / 16.08.01
I'm actually really interested in this thread but more for the way in which narrative continuity might be viewed in relationship to the narrativising of our environment that provides us with a sense of day-to-day 'real life' continuity. They are both as fake as one another surely? Hmm. I should start a thread about this in the Head Shop.
 
 
Tiki's Sifting Jewel Mansion
09:58 / 17.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Jack Fear:
On his forum, Warren Ellis recently said something like "Continuity is important to people for whom comics is a lifestyle, rather than an entertainment."[ 06-08-2001: Message edited by: Jack Fear ]


Half in jest here, but then wouldn't continuity be a lifestyle for Warren Ellis?

He seemed to mean it in an "why should anyone care about continuity"-kinda way.

 
 
grant
12:14 / 17.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Tom Coates:
I'm actually really interested in this thread but more for the way in which narrative continuity might be viewed in relationship to the narrativising of our environment that provides us with a sense of day-to-day 'real life' continuity. They are both as fake as one another surely? Hmm. I should start a thread about this in the Head Shop.


I was just up late last night after watching Joseph Campell on PBS. Yeah, we make the events all fit the stories.
(heheh - actually, there was a Star Trek about this....)
What's the word -- homeostatic? We make the chaotic systems fit the orderly narrative. Most flexible narrative wins.
 
  
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