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Breakin the Law! Breakin The Law!

 
 
Not Here Still
15:41 / 13.08.01
Just to panick everyone, I was wondering what the state of play was with things like libel and contempt of court on bulletin board sites like this one.

Technically, it would appear that a lot of things on sites such as Barbelith could be either libellous or raise contempt of court issues, but I'm aware of certain judgements, such as the one on a current photo of the Bulger killers being posted on line, which change the ballgame.

I can see certain things which could be dodgy on Barbelith, as with any other site, but I don't really want to point them out.

Does anyone with a knowledge of internet law have anything to say on the matter?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:30 / 13.08.01
It's a bit up in the air, though Tom runs the board isn't it based in America? So I would have thought if the authorities wanted to do something they might have to treat it as an American crime. Or, as you don't post the photos as such, just put in a link and the computer goes and grabs said photos, it may be a case involving the country the original website is based in... Or maybe I'm tired and I want to go home.

Yes, that sounds more likely.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:06 / 15.08.01
Do you know, I don't even KNOW where the site is hosted. I THINK it's America. It could be Canada. Who would know?

Basically, the legal situation on boards like this is very unclear at the moment. If I get a complaint from someone, I'd act on it and remove the statement in question, and if I (or any of the moderators) see anything REALLY dubious, I'd expect to do the same. This is only to avoid getting my arse removed by the courts. On the other hand, I can't track this site every minute of every day, and I doubt anyone take seriously a lot of the stuff that's on this board in the real world. The libel has to be reasonable, generally - in that people would actually believe it were true. And for whatever WE believe, I suspect that the presence of articles about changing the world through masturbation might seem to lower our credibilities in the eyes of the law. But then again...
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:32 / 15.06.05
I vote that a moderator go through my scientology thread and replace the word "scientology" with something like "doo-doo heads". AFter researching a bit on that group, it seems they like sueing the shit out of people.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:38 / 15.06.05
Speaking as someone who's had a post removed "for legal reasons"*, the general thing seems to be, as Tom says, to err on the side of caution. If someone oversteps the mark (as I unwittingly did) it'll get removed. But best not to cause any extra work, and try to avoid the situation arising at all.

I imagine making a habit of it would result in a good kicking (off the board).

*Just thought I should add, Tom was very nice about it, but still, best not to do it in the first place, really.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:05 / 15.06.05
I really don't think the Church of Doo-Dooheads is going to get all up in our shit for one thread on a messageboard, Denph3ld.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:24 / 15.06.05
I wouldn't put anything past the Scientoologists.
 
 
■
20:46 / 20.06.05
OK, as someone who knows a leetle about defamation law, the situation is this: no-one really knows yet. I would think most courts are a bit scared to admit cases about internet defamation because if they did and a case won, they would be deluged and unable to cope with their normal running.

I'm talking from a Scottish perspective, but the English one is similar. Scotland is just a tad less forgiving (to defame someone in Scotland it is possible to do it to their face in a closed room with no witnesses and still be sued for it. In England it isn't) and the BBC site on libel doesn't cover it properly. It's quite easy to defame someone. For the purposes of this post, assume defamation=English libel, not quite the same but makes it easier.
For something to be defamatory, there are three tests:
1) Publication: The statement must have been published.
2) Identification: The statement must be understood to refer to the person claiming defamation
3) Defamation: The statement must (in one of various conceivable ways*) damage the reputation of the person claiming defamation to the extent that their reputation would be lowered. Which is why it's open season on Jeffery Archer and Jonathan King.

If these three are satisfied, it IS defamatory, and you are in deep shit unless you can use one of three defences (well, four, really, but the distinction is too complicated to go into here).

A) Veritas: It's true and (more importantly) you can prove it.
B) Public interest: You can show that it is more important that the person is defamed than not (again, remember this is a defence. You HAVE defamed this person, but you're trying to justify it).
C) Privilege: There are set situations (such as accurately and contemporaneously reporting court proceedings) in which you are allowed to publish anything said by participants. Be careful here, though as you might get hit with contempt, which is a whole other scary ballgame.

OK, the reeeeealy good news here (for some posters) is that posting something nasty about another member of Barbelith is very very unlikely ever to result in a successful suit. This is because we are all pretty much anonymous, so the identification requirement is very hard to prove. I think only Tom, Cameron and a handful of others would be sufficiently easily identifiable. Should someone start telling the board too much about themselves, don't say nasty things about them.

The bad news is that (under Scottish law at least) anything that is published in Scotland can be treated as defamatory under Scottish law in Scottish Courts. Who can be sued? Anyone that distributes the defamation. Anyone. In the case of newspapers, the list might read:
The reporter who wrote it
The editor who passed it
The paper's proprietor
The sub-editor who edited it
The printers
The van drivers
The newsagent
The paperboy/girl
Someone who cands you a copy of the paper

Of course

Now, just try and extend that to the internet. Fucked-up, isn't it? So far only ISPs have been targeted, but just wait until Claims Direct get a whiff of it.

So, calling someone a simpleton on a messageboard might be OK for now. It might not be when it's easier to track posts or identify the alleged simpleton. By the way, the word "allegedly" is no defence at all, nor is the claim you're just repeating what someone else said. So quoting posts means you are just as guilty as the original poster.

However, in the only well-known UK case (Godfrey v. Demon Internet) the judge ruled it was Demon's refusal to remove a post from one of their newsgroups when asked that rendered them liable rather than hosting the post. I'm not clear if this was a usenet group, but if it was, gods help us. Usenet is mirrored everywhere - as are Google caches of Barbelith. We could be setting all sorts of poor bastards up for trouble.


PS: This in no way constitutes legal advice, just the ramblings of someone who's a bit bored. It's all about what you should not do, and in no way tells you what you should.

*Don't forget that a literal claim might be true (for example, "Well, we know he doesn't go with prostitutes, don't we?"), but the implication or innuendo of such a statement (that he really does) is also defamation. Be careful.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
02:31 / 21.06.05
Speaking as someone who's had a post removed 'for legal reasons'

Ok, it's childish and it's silly, I know, but might I ask why ? It wasn't to do with that thing on the ferry that time, was it ? When ***** Krankie ****** ** **** *** ***** 'adult magazines' ?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:05 / 21.06.05
Well, I obviously can't tell you here, can I? And no, it wasn't that story...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:02 / 21.06.05
I don't think we should be scared of posting contentious information. I'm not saying anyone is, nor am I saying the legal issue isn't something to think about...but come on, let's not censor ourselves for fear of getting sued. Mostly we speak the truth here.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:12 / 21.06.05
Oh, contentious, no problem, and personally I wouldn't give a fuck... but bear in mind it's not our decision to make, 'cause in the (very unlikely) case of somethiong actually happening, it wouldn't be our heads on the block, it'd be Tom's. It's very easy for us to say (as I just did) that we wouldn't give a fuck- we're not liable for anything.
In my case, Tom felt I'd crossed the line, and that was fair enough, what with it being his responsibility to choose where the line is.

Anyhoo, it's rarely an issue... people can, and do, say all manner of stuff online without fear. It's just worth bearing in mind that this freedom, while large, isn't infinite.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:54 / 21.06.05
People routinely say actionable things about one another. I was in a meeting just now where someone did. I was thinking "hmmm, okay, remind me not to repeat that'. The key is whether anyone a) notices b) gives a monkeys and c) can persuade a court to agree that the comment was evil and also that something beyond 'sorry, mate, got carried away' is required.

Newspapers, for example, routinely follow nine inch headlines with diddy retractions on page twelve, under the crossword.

That said, some loud howl of 'XYZ is clearly a cattle-molesting embezzler' would definitely do the trick under UK law if it got noticed in the first place. So, you know, let's don't be the test case.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:52 / 21.06.05
Absofuckinlutely.
 
  
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