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Jedi Hell

 
 
moriarty
03:42 / 12.08.01
"Remember the final scene in "Return of the Jedi," when Luke gazes into a fire to see Obi-Wan, Yoda and Vader, smiling in the flames? I found myself hoping it was Jedi Hell, for the amount of pain those three unleashed on their galaxy, and for all the damned lies they told. But that's me. I'm a rebel against Homer and Achilles and that whole tradition. At heart, some of you are, too."

From an article by Sci-Fi writer David Brin concerning the evil legacy and corrupt moralizing of the Star Wars movies. he also touches on why Science Fiction is done badly in comic books among other things. While I think he has a few valid points, I can't help thinking he's off the mark entirely for others.

First off, he puts across the idea that the redemption of Darth Vader in ROTJ is similar to redeeming Hitler, forgetting his past transgressions, and throwing a parade down Main street for him. I always thought Darth Vader's redemption was a personal one, between him and Luke. Brin seems to be under the impression that the entire Star Wars Universe forgave Vader. I just assumed that Luke never told anyone, and Vader was presumed dead or missing. And he would go down in Star Wars history as a mass murderer. Luke very probably (and possibly mistakenly) chose to separate Anakin from Darth in his mind, just like Obi-Wan before him, therefore accepting the things Vader had done while still loving his father. Just because one man forgives Vader (and quite possibly George Lucas, and through him, the audience) does that mean that the everyone else does too?

Second, he believes that Star Wars doesn't have as much depth as Star Trek, and plays up the themes and subtle characterization the films lack in comparison. Is it completely unbelievable that a saga played out over only 8 hours so far may not have the room for complexity that a series which has clocked in hundreds of hours over the years? A better comparison would have been between the movie series of both franchises. Or if he had read a few of the books based on Star Wars to see if they delve into some of the areas he sees as missing, like the lack of "demi-god" characters.

Anyways, I just posted this because it's late and I was in the mood to start a thread called Jedi Hell.
 
 
Higher than the sun :)
07:42 / 12.08.01
Quite right too. Would the Jedi Republic be any less corrupt or totaletarian then the Empire?

Buerocrats would rise to the top in both sysytems. Would they not?
 
 
Rollo Kim, on location
10:31 / 12.08.01
The Force = act on instincts
Hitler's SS = act on instincts [a fundamental SS doctrine.]
 
 
rizla mission
11:35 / 12.08.01
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
Second, he believes that Star Wars doesn't have as much depth as Star Trek,


A clear sign of someone who needs to be beaten around the head with a replica Tie-Fighter.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
07:38 / 13.08.01
This ties in with something I've thought ever since Phantom Menace that lucas is trying to have his sci-fi cake, going for a deep mystical story full of 'use the Tibetan Buddhism force' stuff, but when anyone calls him on the intellectual shortcomings of his work backpedal furiously and go 'it's only a kiddies story!'. Name five other popular kids stories that deal with trade blockades and political machinations?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
08:34 / 13.08.01
Going back to the article I don't really think Brin makes a case for why Kenobi and Yoda are in Hell, alright, so Kenobi accidently brings up the most evil being in the universe and Yoda says some dubious rubbish, but not actually evil per se.
 
 
Templar
13:17 / 13.08.01
quote:Originally posted by moriarty:
Is it completely unbelievable that a saga played out over only 8 hours so far may not have the room for complexity that a series which has clocked in hundreds of hours over the years?


More like that Star Wars manages a much more honest character development than the tangled and generall predictable Star Wars "development."
 
 
grant
13:21 / 13.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Rizla Year Zero:
A clear sign of someone who needs to be beaten around the head with a replica Tie-Fighter.


Brin:
quote:Above all, "Star Trek" generally depicts heroes who are only about 10 times as brilliant, noble and heroic as a normal person, prevailing through cooperation and wit, rather than because of some inherited godlike transcendent greatness. Characters who do achieve godlike powers are subjected to ruthless scrutiny. In other words, "Trek" is a prototypically American dream, entranced by notions of human improvement and a progress that lifts all. Gene Roddenberry's vision loves heroes, but it breaks away from the elitist tradition of princes and wizards who rule by divine or mystical right.

By contrast, these are the only heroes in the "Star Wars" universe.


grant:
I like Wrath of Khan better than Revenge of the Jedi (except the scene where Darth turns on the Emperor).
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
15:12 / 13.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Templar:


More like that Star Wars manages a much more honest character development than the tangled and generall predictable Star Wars "development."


I think you meant to say Star Trek the second time, right?

I think both Star Wars and Star Trek have very black and white views on good and evil, but at least Star Wars allows its characters to exist on both ends of the spectrum, even mixing into shades of gray (Yoda and Obi Wan's rationalized lying, Luke's body count equaling his fathers, Vader's ultimate 'redemption')

I think that Moriarty is correct, I don't think Vader's 'redemption' is meant to be taken as anything other than a personal one, and Anakin appearing in the "jedi hell" scene is just a symbollic thing to say "ah, Anakin was a good dude", and nothing more than that. It's not as if you saw him in full Vader uniform hanging out with Yoda and Obi Wan...
 
 
Molly Shortcake
15:13 / 13.08.01
For all his talk of trancending archtypes and stereotypcial thinking, he's still willing to condem people as unredeamably evil. Brins sci-fi notions are dependant on moral conventions. This guys gotta hate morally ambivolent hyperreal sci-fi.

[ 13-08-2001: Message edited by: Ice Honkey ]
 
 
Rex City-zen
15:54 / 13.08.01
Still don't belive that Anakin is Vader...
see( I don't belive Darth Vader is luke's father!)thread...
 
 
Saint Keggers
03:28 / 14.08.01
I just think that Luca sshould be roasting for the shit he did to his movies. What the hell? Jabba green? And the whole lets make Han Solo a good guy who doesn't shoot first cantina scene. What a way to destroy a character. I thought he was supposed to evolve from a scoundrel and smuggler. Crap crap crap crap.
And the Phantom Menace sucked too...
 
 
Templar
19:29 / 14.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Rad:
I think you meant to say Star Trek the second time, right?


*ahem* Uh, yes. *ahem*
 
 
Kobol Strom
20:26 / 14.08.01
Do you know what bugs me about Star Trek,the way the enterprise is such a happy little island surrounded by the comfortably sterile vacuum of space.If someone even comes with in a light year ,they sit there wondering whether or not they want to communicate.What society is this supposed to be a model of?What good are Star Trek morals when taken out of the context of their inherent separateness?
 
 
PatrickMM
23:33 / 13.11.06
Quite right too. Would the Jedi Republic be any less corrupt or totaletarian then the Empire?

This is one of the things I really liked about the prequels, the fact that the Jedi have become so complacent in their rules and worldview that Palpatine rises up right under them. The Jedi are never meant to be unambiguously heroic, their attempt to suppress all human emotion winds up bringing about their downfall. Luke is able to win at the end because he is able to use his feelings to aid his fighting without being corrupted by them. His emotional plea there has more in common with what Anakin was talking about in Sith than what the Jedi talked about then. As always, it's the middle ground that works.
 
 
grant
11:48 / 14.11.06
Man, I wish that was more explicit in the films. They seem so -- mushy as it is.

Maybe "explicit" is the wrong word. I wish it was portrayed more elegantly.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:41 / 14.11.06
Patrick MM This is one of the things I really liked about the prequels, the fact that the Jedi have become so complacent in their rules and worldview that Palpatine rises up right under them.

Yes, watch the Jedi complacently deal with trade disputes, watch the Jedi complacently get involved in the Clone Wars, watch the Jedi complacently worry that they have more work to do than they can handle...
 
  
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