BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Lee/Kirby/Ditko etc etc

 
 
No star here laces
22:54 / 23.03.02
I've never read anything except modern comics, but I've now got a bit of a yen to get acquainted with the work of these gents after reading the way Scott McCloud talks about the way art was used in American comics of that era.

Can you get this stuff in trades? And if so, what are the really essential stories to read?
 
 
moriarty
04:05 / 24.03.02
Alright! Now we're cooking!

All three of the gentlemen you mention have produced enormous amounts of work, so I can understand your trepedition. Assuming that you're refering to their 60's work, the titles most recommended for both Lee/Ditko and Lee/Kirby would be Spider-Man and Fantastic Four, respectively. Many people swear by Ditko's Dr. Strange, though. Secondary Kirby work of the 60's is a little tough to hammer down because he drew so damn much. Everyone will probably have a different answer. For me, I love his Thor.

Before you consider any other titles, Spidey and the FF are the ones to go for. They're both completely different from one another, and both represent the best the 60's Marvel resurgence had to offer. Oh, and they're probably the best superhero comics ever created. Ever. For real.

You can purchase most all of the early issues dirt cheap in the Essential series Marvel has cooked up, which is printed in black and white. My former roommate swears by them, and they're good if you're colour blind, but since I own a few issues of either title in their original colour, there's no going back for me. The Essentials give me a headache, and will lessen your enjoyment of these classics.

The next step up is the ever pricey Masterworks editions, which are printed on the highest quality paper and cost a small fortune.

I don't own either of these versions. Back in the day, Marvel reprinted most of both runs in Marvel Tales (starring Spider-Man) and Marvel's Greatest Comics (starring the Fantastic Four). Marvel Tales was fairly popular, and had such a long run that they actually ran through the early issues of Spidey twice. They're not at all hard to find. Marvel's Greatest Comics is a bit rarer, but I've managed to scrounge a fair number of issues at conventions, and never paid more than $1 for any of them. You might also be able to pick up damaged copies of the original runs for cheap. I've bought Kirby Fantastic Fours for around $2, just because they have a small rip or because some kid wrote his name in the inside front cover.

So check your local back issue bin. And make sure you ask the store owner if you can check the interior of the comic. I know some of the FF reprints had Kirby covers, and interiors by different artists altogether.

After you've tasted the best you might consider looking further into their earlier and later work. I'm not as familiar with Ditko as I'd like to be, but I have enough Kirby material to fill a box (the Mother Box, I'm ashamed to admit).

Kirby's DC work in the 70s, particularly the Fourth World series, is considered by many to be even better than the FF. In a way, it's Kirby Unleashed. He wrote, drew and edited New Gods, Mister Miracle, The Forever People, and ...um... Jimmy Olsen. They all tied into a plot concerning a war between the Gods of New Genesis and the Gods of Apokolips, and was a kind of cosmic powered madness that broke an awful lot of your typical spandex cliches. New Gods is probably the best title, but Jimmy Olsen holds a special place in my heart, even if they did get Curt Swan to redraw Superman's face. These are available in a format the resembles the Marvel Essentials, or, I'd recommend hunting down the originals.

His other 70s stuff isn't as groundbreaking, but is still alot of fun. I really like Kamandi, for some reason. I remember someone mentioning that Kamandi was like seeing every cultural aspect of the 70s through the eyes of Kirby. It had everything. Then there's Devil Dinosaur, 2001, OMAC, the Demon, etc. Many of these can be found in in back issue bins at reduced rates, but I would start with his Fantastic Four first, if you can.

In almost no way related, you might want to check out the Jack Kirby Collector. I only have the Thor issue, but I'm considering getting more. This particular issue has the complete, rejected pencils for a Thor/Galactus conflict that Stan Lee deep-sixed, and they're beautiful, particularly since Vince Colletta, inker on Thor, hadn't gotten his paws on them yet. Kirby was quite a pioneer, and this magazine really digs deep into some of his lesser known achievements.

Also, I really enjoyed the Untold Tales of Spider-Man. It was a series that came out a few years ago, and told stories between issues of the Lee/Ditko run. It's not nearly as good, but I was just rereading a few the other night and I got a good laugh out of them. Of particular interest to a few people here, the Untold Tales of Spider-man annual was drawn by Mike Allred, and it was great.

Essential Spider-Man vol. 1
Marvel Masterworks Spider-man vol. 1
Essential Fantastic Four vol. 1
Marvel Masterworks Fantastic Four vol. 1

If you are considering buying any of the Fantastic Four collections, keep in mind that Kirby's work grows in leaps and bounds, and that he's at his best from around issue #40 and up.
 
 
quinine92001
04:28 / 24.03.02
I prefer the old square jawed Steve Rogers version of Cap America. Anything with the Falcon drawn by Kirby is true genius. I'm talking about the issues around 200 that included the texas gent and Cap and Falcon dealing with the Night People or something. All I remember is the phrase 'Mad, Mad Dimension"! And some unstoppable mindless being.
 
 
quinine92001
04:33 / 24.03.02
I forgot- SpiderMan up to Issue 40. ditko and Lee concoct some great stories especially the one where SpiderMan is trapped underneath all of that rumble and must muscle his way out. You must also read the Fantastic Four issue " This Man this Monster"
 
 
moriarty
04:53 / 24.03.02
Those Captain America comics are brilliant. Thanks for reminding me. Nazi X and Cold War paranoia, all the way.
 
 
CameronStewart
12:36 / 24.03.02
The Essentials books are a great, quick start, if you don't want to spend ages looking through back issue bins. But as Moriarty says, It's a shame they're in black and white.

I have almost a complete run of Lee and Kirby's Fantastic Four - and because I don't care what condition they're in, I'd buy the most worn and tattered (and consequently cheapest) copies I could find in shops or conventions. Most cost me less than a dollar or two each. Often I'll restaple them or put tape all over the rips, which is great because then they really look old...
 
 
Mystery Gypt
19:15 / 24.03.02
let me be one of those people who swear by ditko's doctor strange. that melting, other dimensional psychedelic art is just the best. i bought a colllection on ebay that came out in the 80 that was a paperback sized book reprinting like 60 pages of those stories, and it cost me 5 bucks. not understanding comic art nearly as well as moriarty or cameron, i am easily drawn in to the ditko strange because of how stylistic and colorful it all is.
 
 
A
23:43 / 24.03.02
Yep, Dr. Strange was great. I've got a small paperback from 1978 that collects the first 15 or so (it could be more or less) appearances of Dr. Strange from "Strange Tales". Even though the art is at about 1/3 size, it still looks great. It's a shame more comics weren't (and aren't) collected like this.

Apparently, Ditko's work on Dr. Strange was an enormous influence on the 60's psychedelic art scene, and it's pretty easy to see why.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
03:10 / 25.03.02
Allow me to jumnp on the Dr. Strange bandwagon, and the new Essential reprints all of the Ditko Dr. Stronge in one big book, as well as the people who came after him and had no grasp at ALL of what to do with the character.

For Kirby? Fantastic Four for his imagination, and Captain America for just how much action he could put into a story. Many of the stories in the First Cap Essential are retellings of the stuff Kirby did in the 40's. It's amazing now how Kirby would just toss in incredibly rich ideas into his work on the Fantastic Four and not develop them at all, like The Inhumans, The Silver Surfer and the Black Panther. His work on the New Gods, while more creative, just didn't have the same spark as his work on the FF.

His Thor work didn't get good until around issue #140 or so, so wait until they do a second Thor Essential, since it's painfully obvious to me that Thor started as Marvel's thinly vieled version of Superman.
 
 
bio k9
07:23 / 25.03.02
A tip: forget comic shops. Check used book stores, esp. the chain ones that will buy anything people bring in. A lot of people seem to dump their comic collections at one of the stores around here (or someones robbing a local shop blind and selling the stuff). Ive seen all the Americas Best Comics hardcovers and some of the Marvel Masterworks books for half the cover price. I got Marvel Masterworks Volume 6 (FF #11-20) for $18.

Like everyone else, I say go for Spiderman and the FF. And stay away from the XMen.
 
 
No star here laces
12:48 / 26.03.02
Well, I sat in a bookshop the other day and read through most of the Marvel Masterworks Spiderman Vol 1 (the only one they had in) and can't say I was massively impressed.

Maybe Ditko warms up a bit in the later issues, but I was really struggling to find anything special about his art. Spidey was nicely posed, and there was a lot of good implied movement in his action shots, but the faces and poses of background characters seemed abysmally 2-dimensional and stereotyped to me.

I mean clearly printing tech being what it was in those days, of course the art is going to be very flat. But Herge is very flat too, but has so much more of a wealth of life and detail than this.

Dunno, any Ditko fans out there who can clue me in as to why he's so highly rated? Otherwise I'm going to stick to hunting out the FFs cos I can definitely see the attraction where Kirby is concerned...
 
 
CameronStewart
13:07 / 26.03.02
Here's a nice, simple explanation of Ditko's appeal.

Click on the links in the article for some really fine examples.

Ditko is certainly an acquired taste - I remember as a kid I thought he was horrible - weird rubbery figures and ugly faces, but now that I'm older I see past that and recognize the wonderful design and clever storytelling.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:22 / 26.03.02
And, you know, this is the thing that's missing from ALL the Spiderman comics now: twisted, ugly villains. The Vulture's not supposed to be young and sexy - he's shrivelled, twisted and old. Doc Ock, well muscled and groovy? Uh-uh. Short and squat and labcoaty, please...

Dikto and the gang could do *malformed* real well.
 
 
No star here laces
08:01 / 27.03.02
I can see I'll have to study some more.

It is very noticeable how much more goes on between panels with this stuff than tends to happen in modern comics' e.g.


Which I do kind of like - it makes 'em more like comics and less like anything else. Would that make sense, that comics' evolution has been actually a watering down of their comic-ness?
 
 
sleazenation
08:16 / 27.03.02
aren't marvel producing a "famous firsts" volume soon collecting all the first appearences of a variety of comics and characters from the 60's...
 
  
Add Your Reply