BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Comic Books >

What Would Superman Do?

  
 
moriarty
18:14 / 13.03.02
I remember Alan Moore saying once a few years back that when he was growing up kids had role models like Superman to read in their comics, and now kids dig on Wolverine.

There's something about Superman. Recently there's been an upswing for him, with the TV show and the t-shirts everywhere. People who have never read a Superman comic in their life dig on the Big Blue Boy Scout. Harlan Ellison once wrote that there were only five fictional characters known to almost every person on the planet, and Supes was one of them. Even here, I've seen everything from people saying he's over the hill and should be put to pasture, to stating that he should be free to all people to use. Even Warren Ellis, the man who hates superheroes, has room for Superman in his two times too small heart.

Though I went through the typical "Batman is better than Superman because Superman can't can't hurt" stage, I now have an appreciation of Superman that I just can't shake. And even though I would be the first to admit that the majority of his stories have been, and currently are, mediocre and missing the point, it's all worth it for those moments that encapsulate what can be good about the Superhero genre.

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:34 / 13.03.02
I've never really cared for Batman and Superman, personally. The only Batman and Superman material that I've ever enjoyed have been the Paul Dini animated series, which I really like a lot. Both of those series really capture the appeal of the characters and their respective mythos in a way that I've never seen in comics. Welll...maybe the early post-crisis John Byrne Superman comics. Those were pretty good, I think. I haven't read much silver and golden age Batman or Superman, though I've had exposure to it.

When I think of what I like about Superman, I think of the supporting cast, and the permanent status quo that the comics used to have.

A couple weeks ago, when I was writing about Darwyn Cooke's Spider-Man comic, I said something to the effect of Batman, Superman, Spider-Man (and by extension all of the 'classic' superheroes) work best in a state of stasis, that continuity is the worst thing that could happen to characters like that. I don't think Superman should be any different from The Simpsons or Mickey Mouse. The mythic appeal of these characters comes from the template for the characters being perfect, a set of characters, situations, and relationships that can be put into a wide variety of story ideas. So long as things go back to normal at the end of the story.

I really do think that fans of characters like Batman and Superman have ruined the ongoing comics for everyone else - this is exactly why people would rather see the cartoons or the movies or Smallville. The people at DC and Marvel don't seem to get it - if you keep the characters in a situational vacuum, it's far easier to update the characters for new audiences. The current Superman comics could never be adapted into something like Smallville, but the classic mold can.

I think the appeal of Superman isn't so much about Superman the superhero, as it is about the world's interaction with this huge, spectacular force of positive morality and virtue. Everyone is supposed to be in awe of him - Superman is not human. He shouldn't have too much character - that's not the point. He's supposed to be like an abstract being of pure good.

I think that Superman as a vehicle for writing parables about nonsecular morality is fantastic - there should always be a place for the character. The concept is pretty timeless.

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Avoiding The Conceptual Life ]
 
 
kid coagulant
18:37 / 13.03.02
I never understood how, being an extraterrestrial being, he could have the hots for Lois Lane.

And how come if he was so smart he couldn't make friends w/ Lex Luthor.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:11 / 13.03.02
Well, Lois is pretty hot. And that girl they've got playing Lana Lang on the WB...

I think for Superman (and a lot of other quasi-mythic characters like Batman, Spider-Man, the X-Men, Star Wars, Buffy etc), there has to be a certain suspension of disbelief to keep the necessary drama working, even if the logic is a bit off..
 
 
moriarty
19:11 / 13.03.02
invix, the answers to your questions depend on the specific era of Superman's history. Primarily, Superman was sent to Earth because it was the easiest planet for him to adapt and be accepted to, so he at least looks human. Various versions have suggested that his parents sent him there because they imagined he would use his powers to lord it over the Earth, and bring Kryptonian culture there. And since he was raised human, it isn't that unlikely that he would fall for someone from a planet he considers to be his home.

Pre-Crisis, Lex was a teen scientist and friend of Superboy who saved his life once by getting him safely away from a chunk of kyrptonite. Lex decided to help his friend out by finding a cure to kryptonite poisoning, and, shades of Doctor Doom, there was an accident. Superboy saved Lex, but in doing so caused the fumes from the experiment to make Lex lose all his hair. Lex blamed Superboy for this, and cited jealousy on the part of Superboy. And so their conflict began. Post-Crisis, Lex is a businessman with no prior ties to Superman, and is envious of Superman for becoming Metropolis' chosen son, a title Lex once held. So, in both cases, Lex has a passionate hatred of Superman that can't easily be solved.

Yeah, Flux, I largely agree with what you're saying. I think Superman is a character that works despite most of the stories written about him. The way DC does their Superman comics is a travesty. All one big storyline, with a comic every week, making it almost impossible to jump on or for children to buy it.
 
 
moriarty
20:36 / 13.03.02
Favourite Superman moments. Spoliers.

The first issues of Action Comics. Back in the day when he had to leap over tall buildings. Supes was set to take on corrupt politicians, Nazis, and the Depression itself. He was like a Kryptonian Teddy Roosevelt. Hell, he used to threaten to drop people from the tops of buildings. The perfect antidote for people who think he's a government shill.

Hitman #34. Supes isn't coping well with the expectations people have for him, and Tommy gives him a pep talk, detailing why he's the ultimate American because he's the ultimate immigrant.

Superman the Movie. I just rewatched this recently. When he's frantically trying to find a phone booth, and all that's available are little phone kiosks. And the frightening scream he let's out when he finds Lois dead. Scared the hell out of me.

Morrison's JLA. Makes me wish that Morrison's Superman deal hadn't fallen through. Most people are fond of Batman's portrayal in this series, but I think it was all Supes. Issue #23, where he's not just fighting for the fate of the world, but also for the sake of a child's faith in him. Or #7, where he tells the Martian Manhunter to stand down, and proceeds to fight an angel, with an astonished Green Lantern off to the side. And the end of Morrison's run, where the entire human race repays Superman for his service to the Earth.

Superman Animated, the movie. Clark jumping onto a burning RV to save a family, before he realizes he's invunerable. Also, his first flight and when he rescues the plane.

Superman Adventures #36. A boy who's lost his dog thinks that Superman will help him, but his parents figure Supes is too busy stopping disasters and fighting crime. Written by Mark Millar.

Smallville. Clark decides to face off against the kid who stole his powers. When his parents try to stop him, he stands his ground. You could believe that Clark will become Superman. Favourite scene so far.

The Silver Age. Bottled cities, a dozen varieties of kryptonite, the Legion of Super-pets and more. Crazy.

[ 13-03-2002: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
Captain Zoom
22:00 / 13.03.02
Can I add a couple?

Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow? by Alan Moore. Just the whole thing.

Aw, crap. I had two, but the second one just vanished from my head.

Superman, or rather the idea of Superman, is probably the best idea for a hero, super or otherwise, ever. I love the idea of him. It's just the execution that leaves something to be desired.

Zoom.
 
 
A
11:52 / 14.03.02
I love Superman. When i was in pre-school, on photo day i wore a blue sweatshirt with a superman logo sticker on the front, blue jeans, red gumboots, and a red cape. i seriously considered wearing a pair of red underpants on the outside of my jeans, but fortunately i decided against it.

I agree that Superman is, and should be, a "huge, spectacular force of positive morality and virtue" (flux), but i disagree that he shouldn't have too much character. A large part of the appeal of Superman for me has always been that he's a genius, and a charismatic one at that.

I love the way that Superman ws portrayed in Grant Morrison's JLA. I read an interview with Grant where he said that he sees Superman as being a combination of Jesus, Einstein, and the American flag, and that seems pretty damn accurate to me.

It's an awful shame that Morrison, Millar, Peyer and Waid had their Superman proposal turned down. I've read interviews with Mark Waid about it, and it damn near brings a tear to my eye just thinking of him talking about how all he ever wanted to do was make Superman the role-model for the kids of today that he was for him, but DC told him he would NEVER write Superman. Poor guy.

It's late, shall write more later.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
12:19 / 14.03.02
Could I get some backstory on the Morrison/Waid/Peyer etc Superman proposal?

Favourite Superman moment - probably the Alan Moore story where he is living the fantasy of life on Krypton.

"I love you too, son....but I don't think you're real anymore."

Wrestling with the angel as very cool, along with all sorts of little Morrison character moments - the "new hair" crack, for example.

My favourite moment, though it has yet to haqppen in the UK at least, is when Smallville Lex and Clark fall into each other's arms and kiss furiously but with endless gentleness.
 
 
moriarty
12:28 / 14.03.02
I tried finding decent information on the proposal fiasco, but had little luck, probably due to the participants wanting to keep their ideas to themselves for later use. However, I attended a discussion by one of the writers a few years back at a comic convention, and he talked about the subject a little, so I'll see what I can remember.

Basically, the writers were approached by DC brass to submit a Superman proposal. When they submitted it, they gave it to the Superman editorial team, who they assumed had been told that a proposal was in the works. The Superman editorial team, unaware that this proposal had been solicited by higher-ups, sent off an angry reply, accusing the writers of the proposal of trying to muscle their way in and steal someone else's thunder with an unsolicited proposal. The writers were understandably upset by this miscommunication, and even after the mistake had been pointed out, talks broke down.

The only thing I know about the proposal itself is that something would happen to cause the entire world to forget that Clark Kent and Lois Lane had been married. Even Lois would forget, including the knowledge that Clark was Superman. The only person that would remember would be Superman himself, which would compound the heartbreak of the reinstated Supes/Clark/Lois triangle, which the wirters felt was an integral part of the Superman mythos.

Damn. And you just reminded me, Haus. The Hitman issue where Sean is passing around the petition for getting Superman to get a haircut was hilarious. "Running around like some hippie. What kind of a role model is that for kids?"

[ 14-03-2002: Message edited by: moriarty ]
 
 
Captain Zoom
14:49 / 14.03.02
moriarty - do you mind if I make myself a t-shirt that says: "WWSD" with "What Would Superman Do?" written underneath. To have such a thing would make me very happy.

Zoom.
 
 
moriarty
15:05 / 14.03.02
Funny thing, Zoom. When I was considering reopening my comic shop, I drew up plans for various posters, stuff that the man on the street could relate to. One of them was going to be a "WWsupermansymbolD" poster. I'm still considering getting one of those charms made up like this.

By all means, make your shirt.
 
 
deja_vroom
15:17 / 14.03.02
Let's not forget the role of Superman as a symbol of power in the context of international politics.

If you say that's not the way he should be viewed, I say that I'm fine with Superman fighting the psy-megazordoids from planet X to protect Earth, but if a writer wants to write "adult" material and starts messing around with politics, then the material should be consistent with the reality, or else it will be just some piece of propaganda.

Case being this comic book I read a while ago, that really left me mad. It was Superman: Peace On Earth. It was painted by Alex Ross.
I forget who was the writer, but he tried to sell the idea that Clark Kent, being a journalist (and an intelligent one, with good connections; and more than that, a super-being whose enhanced senses would give him access to all sort of priviledged information), and spending some time researching the cause for world hunger, would not come to the conclusion that some said "democratic" countries and his greed-driven policies - his adopted country being one of them - are the ones responsible for such conditions around the world.

So what he does? He thinks and thinks, and the best thing come to the conclusion that the best thing to do was act palliatively, distributing food, instead of dealing with the causes of the problem.

It's pretty much like trying to fix a flood with some buckets, instead of going to the dam and fixing the hole. I mean, what supes has become, apallingly stupid or just afraid of confronting the status quo? Who does he think he's helping, if he's not tackling the reasons for world hunger?

The damn story was offensive in so many levels (to the discerning superman fan, it was insulting supe's integrty and intelligence, for example) I could not believe what I was seeing...
 
 
moriarty
16:39 / 14.03.02
I was going to respond to your post after just one reading, Jade. I'm glad I took the time to give it a second look, because I didn't read it properly and I'm sure I would have come off as incredibly naive and stupid. I apologize if that's still the case.

In most cases, one of the things about Superman is that he doesn't use his super-powers to interfere in the decision making of humankind. This is obviously a way for DC comics to get away with the obvious questions of why superheroes don't deal with issues like the roots of poverty, crime, famine, etc. This topic has been dealt with in many other comics, with varying degrees of success, such as Miracleman, Kingdom Come, Green Lantern, The Defenders, The Authority, JLA, Watchmen, the unpublished Twilight and far too many to list. In most cases, this superhuman interference either backfires, or the heroes manage to create a totalitarian regime.

Superman has the ability to change the course of human history, but more often than not chooses not to interfere. Hell, he even allowed Luthor to be elected President. That is his decision, and not all other heroes share it.

On the other hand, he sees the problem of hunger and wants to help. If I recall correctly, he even addresses the UN in that book. They governments of the world resent his power and stature, and won't cooperate. Of course, he could pull an Authority, but that's not in his nature. So moving through diplomatic channels is out of the picture. He decides to do what little he can, in a non-offensive, non-partisan way, and help distribute food to those in need for just one day. In doing this, he hopes to show by example that this kind of help is possible, to all nations, including his. However, this help is viewed by the world powers as further interference by a God-like being and is stifled. His hands are tied by his own ethical standards concerning his superpowers.

I agree with you that his "solution" is ludicrous, but it's seemingly the only option he has left. Any other way would result in the breach of the self-determination of Humankind, a virtue he has sworn to uphold.

I believe that the whole point of the comic is that his solution is like fixing a flood with some buckets. Like the other books in this series, he moves from the band-aid solution that his superpowered self can achieve to the real world solutions that his civilian alter ego is capable of. In this one case, Clark Kent is more powerful than Superman. The book is his journey of discovery to this fact.

Anyway, I'd love to wrassle with you further, if you'd like. Oh, and Paul Dini was the writer for this and the other books in the series.
 
 
deja_vroom
10:07 / 15.03.02
By Moryarty:
quotene of the things about Superman is that he doesn't use his super-powers to interfere in the decision making of humankind. This is obviously a way for DC comics to get away with the obvious questions of why superheroes don't deal with issues like the roots of poverty, crime, famine, etc.

He decides to do what little he can, in a non-offensive, non-partisan way, and help distribute food to those in need for just one day. In doing this, he hopes to show by example that this kind of help is possible, to all nations, including his. However, this help is viewed by the world powers as further interference by a God-like being and is stifled. His hands are tied by his own ethical standards concerning his superpowers.

I agree with you that his "solution" is ludicrous, but it's seemingly the only option he has left. Any other way would result in the breach of the self-determination of Humankind, a virtue he has sworn to uphold.


First, let me say that I totally see and agree with your points. It's all there in the book, I just choose the harsh way of viewing the facts.

But, more important, what I'm really taking issue here is not with Superman or the things that he stands for. I'm taking issue about the editorial wisdom of having a story that plays with the notion of the most ethical of the super-heroes doing his ethical thingy and avoiding getting his hands dirty in the process - when some years ago he didn't have second thoughts about depriving Qurac's nation of their nuclear weaponry. That was something Authority style, if I remember correctly (It's an old, old story).

If we were to take comic books as some sort of reflection of the establishment's way of thinking (and really this is something worth thinking about when you remember that DC belongs to a big mediatic corporation that has a lot of interests in a lot of different fields), then we would be seeing a perfect example of how someone won't think twice before twisting a character upside down in order to fulfill a certain point of view. I'm sure Paul Dini's intentions were the best ones, but the story makes of Superman someone doomed to lose in a planet filled with ignorant people who just don't care or are taking profit of the situation. It manages to blow a second hole in the character's integrity, too:

quote:he moves from the band-aid solution that his superpowered self can achieve to the real world solutions that his civilian alter ego is capable of. In this one case, Clark Kent is more powerful than Superman. The book is his journey of discovery to this fact.

As I said before but not in detail, was that Superman's civilian identity... well, he's not a fireman, he's not a postman... he's a journalist!. He has access to information about the state of the world's affairs, and even more than a normal person, because of his enhanced senses. If the character was supposed to stand for what he believes, I think we would be seeing him busting his steel ass off working in some "News for Screws" kind of newspaper, trying to tell and open people's eyes to the big mess that the world has become, not in the Daily Planet, as liberal and left-orientated that paper might be (I'm only guessing, been years since I don't read Superman - and when I did I didn't care really about politics).
So what we have, a super-hero who can't do the right thing based in some ethereal notions of ethics that once in a while get twisted, in exchange for some cheap thrills and a more "adult" feel in an story arc; and we get his alter ego, an intelligent and honest jounalist who just chooses to ignore the big picture and keeps writing his little reports about some old people being evicted from their neighbourhoods by evil Lex Luthor, who wants to build a shopping mall...

The man of steel is completely flawed, I think. In regards to kids having Wolverine as a role model, at least Wolverine gets to touch Emma... oh, nevermind.

[ 15-03-2002: Message edited by: Jade has left the building ]
 
 
Ganesh
12:36 / 15.03.02
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Horror:
My favourite moment, though it has yet to haqppen in the UK at least, is when Smallville Lex and Clark fall into each other's arms and kiss furiously but with endless gentleness.

Might be a while; they're still at that all-important 'looking at each other's lips' stage...
 
 
kid coagulant
13:39 / 15.03.02
The politics of 'Superman' is an interesting topic (this thread has raised a few of them). He was created in the late 30's, by two Jewish American kids as a way for them to deal w/ their preoccupation w/ the growing threat of Nazi fascism (which, after reading Michael Chabon's 'Cavalier & Klay), I would tend to believe. Like it was mentioned in a previous post, he's an immigrant, like so many Americans at that time, and there were lots and lots of kids around who could relate to what he was going through, and wanted to feel invulnerable and escape into fantasy, and then comics exploded, and then we went to war. And so first he was a symbol of that.

And then I guess the argument could be made that he got co-opted...
 
 
A
11:04 / 17.03.02
I remember reading an interview with Mark Millar somewhere, and in the introduction, it mentioned that he had turned Superman into a vegetarian at some point. Does anyone know anything about this? I know that Millar wrote Superman Adventures (the g-rated one based on the cartoons), as well as did the dialogue in one of the main Superman titles, but i don't know which one he apparently did it in, or if it actually happened at all.

See, to me, it seems quite obvious that Superman, with his policy against harming life of any kind (i remember one old JLA comic where a bee flew into Superman's ear, and his super-hearing amplified it's buzzing, so it pretty much incapacitated him, but Supes would not harm the bee), would be a vegetarian. However, in the comics, he's always hoeing into a steak, or using his heat-vision to help Lois cook a fish, or whatever.

I think this is rather symbolic of the way the character of Superman is handled. I think that, even though it deprives him of some character integrity, Superman has never been a vegetarian because it goes against mainstream standards, and, too often Superman is not does portrayed defending truth or justice, but mainstream standards. It would be seen as too "dangerous", or something, for Superman to hold a moral position that implied that the majority of people were in some way wrong.

Superman is always shown as being apolitical, but it is impossible for someone as utterly moral and good as Superman to not be in some way political.

I don't think that Superman should be constantly criticising Republican policy, or anything that blunt or direct, but if he's going to be portrayed as being this immense force for good and morality (which he should), then it should be consistant. It shouldn't be that Superman just embodies the morals that evryone agrees on, because then he doesn't stand out at all.

I have no idea if i'm making any sense, but what do you folks think?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
13:28 / 17.03.02
In a perfect world where Superman doesn't have to support a corporation, and four books a month, it would be very easy to do a meaningful Superman comic. In my "prefect world" there would be three Superman books aimed at vastly different audiences.

The first would be one aimed at young children who know the character from the cartoon and the fact that Superman is so recognizable. It would have simple wish-fulfillment stories (gee, isn't it great to fly?) and have very little of the baggage that Superman always carries no matter how many times they clean off the barnacles. And while the Silver Age stuff was fun for kids back then, it doesn't work for them now. It should be bright, shiney and Pokemon/Manga-like in its art and full of joy.

The second would be like the Superman books now, pseudo Stan Lee with the soap-operas and fight scenes that super-hero comic need to have to sell to fanboys. Don't get me wrong, I read and enjoy the stuff, but I know it's just the equivelent of a TV sitcom, something to pass the time, and if done well, entertain you. There you can have Lois and Clark married, all the Lex Luthor is President stuff and the like.

The last would be one aimed at the Vertido and trade paperback crowd, like "Legends of the Dark Night" was supposed to be. Creator are allowed to come in and do ANY sort of Superman story they want. That is where you could do stories about the mytholgicoal meaning of Superman, or his ramifications in the real world.

As for Rage's questions about the Paul Dini book...so many stories have been done about "Why Superman doesn't solve thus and such crisis" that it's hard to have a new one in what is essentally a book to showcase Ross's art. I read one once that may not even have been a Superman book, but a hero decided to end hunger by bringing food and planting it as well in a famine stricken country. That lead to the military coming in and controlling the food, and when the hero interfered in THAT other countries in the region joined in, saying if the hero would meddle in those internal politics, he would be tempted to meddle in theirs as well.

Sadly, in my mind, the only story that would fit my idea of "Superman if he were real" is one where he sets himself up as dictator for our own good...since the super-hero ideal is, in the end, one of power and control. The vigilate aspect of them always boils down to, Only this man can set things right...
 
  
Add Your Reply