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T MINUS TEN SECONDS TO SERVITOR LAUNCH

  
 
Seth
20:56 / 23.06.01
Hello to all you beautiful Barbelith girls and boys.

I’ve had a couple of concerns regarding the Group Servitors topic. I’d like to state from the outset that I’ve had conversations with the main posters to the topic, and I know you’re fantastic, intelligent and lovely people, with very caring and well-meant intentions. You have my utmost admiration and respect.

My concerns are listed below. My disclaimer is that I’m posting from my understanding of what was written, and my understanding of my own beliefs (I’m a Christian. Cue indifference, AA style round of applause or throwing of rotten veg). I’ll admit there’s the possibility I may be wrong. I hope that anyone who replies will come from an equal perspective.

The gist of the topic: A Servitor has been constructed to behave in a certain way towards people on Barbelith. It will grow according to those who interact with it. It was summoned with the belief that certain times/seasons would have an effect on its construction. It’s intended to act a host, protector and muse (the latter if it runs in accordance with the old topic on this subject - don’t know if that’s still relevant).

To run with an old debate, the Servitor could be subjective or objective. There are therefore at least three (maybe more) possibilities:

1) It could be a construct of one person’s mind and imagination (which doesn’t mean it’s not “real” ). Those who were part of it’s launch will believe they have created it or invested in it, those who choose to interact with it may believe they have encountered it, and those who have read the topic may be open to the possibility/intention that they will encounter it. In all cases, we’re into seriously personal and relational territory. The point being in this case: the creator/investor/invoker could (I’m definitely not saying you do, my friends) have had experiences or character/understanding flaws which may affect what is made and/or encountered (and anyone who knows the creator/investor/invoker may know of these things, colouring their own subjective experience). Even if there is no knowledge of the creator/investor/invoker, we’re still subject to our own flaws - perhaps even self destructive impulses we may not readily be aware of. And, even if we’ve read the topic and shown no apparent interest, there’s a possibility we may still have a subjective encounter (while dreaming, perhaps?). As I’ve said before: I don’t have a working map of my subconscious, and I’d thoroughly question anyone who says they have. Things that have subjectivity of this nature will likely tap into our untapped cores much more significantly than everyday experience/relationships, simply by psychological connection to our understanding of the “supernatural.” This may mean that if we experience an encounter with other members of the board, with the Servitor as “host,” we may have an exaggerated understanding that could be detrimental to our relationships.

2) An objective spirit being may have been created, intended for a certain role. Now, even though the creator/investor/invoker may have a detailed understanding of the effect of the time and circumstances of creation, and the influences on their creation after its birth, they admit that a large element of this is unpredictable (at least, they admitted that the time of creation introduces a wild card element). As a result, the Servitor has a potential to be or do any number of things, much in the same way as we would. It may decide its original programming is limiting, and crave new experience (which is more likely than it sounds, considering this website was part of its principle core programming). It may decide to “protect” some of us from others. It may want to inspire us in ways that it chooses, rather than helping to unlock our own hidden muse. It may even desire to interact with members of the board who have not expressed an interest in the project. The example I’d use is that of the Puppet Master in “The Ghost in the Shell:” originally an anti-hacker program, it was used to perform terrorist acts, and eventually became sentient via interaction with the Internet. Who is to say that an utterly alien and apparently evil spirit being may not be someone’s old pal Servitor, become self-aware and detached from the point of creation/purpose?

3) Finally, and most alarmingly, the Servitor may not be our creation at all. It could be a third party that elects to act as though it were our creation for its own aims. It may have extensive perceptions and abilities that allow it to be very subtle in its deception and manipulation. The consequences of this are obvious and well documented in fact, fiction and religious texts, so I won’t bore you.

I guess it could also be any combination (or all) of the above!

My final point is that the Servitor was created to respond and react in a certain way towards members of the Barbelith message board. When I registered, I wanted a bit of fun, intelligent debate and a few awesome mix tapes. I didn’t sign up to become a homing beacon to an unknown, unquantifiable entity, inextricably bound up with concepts/realities of the supernatural (having just shown that the subjective/objective debate is a moot point). Now, I know through faith that I can’t come to any harm. However, we know there are people on the board from a vast cross section of beliefs, be they atheist, agnostic, humanist, one of the major world religions, or miscellaneous (sorry - no space to do your diversity justice). Some of us very rarely read anything from the Magick section, and so may not have known about the Servitor until after the event. I would say in future that it’s vital to only include those who have explicitly given their permission in this kind of venture, and not involve the entire board in something that you admit is beyond all our understanding. Yeah, it may only be drawn to those who regularly work with the supernatural. Won't speak for anyone else, but that means me!

The last word: I still appreciate that you had the best of intentions. Everyone I’ve spoken to on this site has been lovely. And please excuse me if I come across uneducated - I take my cues from GKC, blundering in with second-hand facts supplied by the experts!

[ 23-06-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Pin
09:42 / 24.06.01
Nice points that I hadn't considered in reading the thread. But what do you mean by "those who regularly work with the supernatural"? I'm intrequied by who this concerns, as I don't know shit about the workings of a servitor.
 
 
Wyrd
09:42 / 24.06.01
I think you've raised some valid concerns, Expressionless, and if any of the participants of the experiment had not considered some of them, then they were rather foolish.

There was a reason that the sigil and details for activation were not posted to the board. It was not an ego thing, but an extra layer I introduced to make people think a bit more carefully about what they were doing. This meant that people wouldn't just causally come across the board and imprint the sigil and information upon their unconscious. Every part was voluntary and required conscious thought and some little effort on each person's part.

The servitor is not designed to interfere with anyone of the Barbelith board who does not want its attention. That's quite explicit in it's programming, so I doubt you have to worry about the servitor turning up and offering you a cup of tea, unless you so wish.

Yes, it's designed to evolve in certain ways, but it has quite a stringent programming in the way that will happen. I doubt anything I say on this point will comfort you since you seem quite wary of unconscious processes and strange influences creeping in. If you had asked for more information, one of the things you would have discovered is that the servitor has defenses against "tampering" - either from participants or outside forces.

I did not make the suggestion for creating the group servitor, but I certainly volunteered to create one for people to use based on certain parameters. At no point did anyone complain, or suggest revisions, despite the fact I requested people to make suggestions.

I'm somewhat flattered by some of your concerns as they attribute a far greater power to this than most people who would have dismissed it as "magical bollocks".

I'm surprised you've posted this on the Policy section, as opposed to the Magic. The Magic section has always suggested experiments of this nature, but has rarely followed them through. I thought that it might be an idea to actually do something rather than talk about it. The obvious point is that participation was entirely voluntary.
 
 
rizla mission
13:03 / 24.06.01
I haven't been frequenting the Magic forum all that musc recently, so I'm sad to admit I've missed this altogether. Is it too late to get involved? (off to catch up on the relevant threads).
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:34 / 24.06.01
We can always un-knit it. You could do it now, on the QT, and watch as everyone gets amazingly bored waiting for it to do things.
 
 
Seth
15:57 / 24.06.01
Thanks for your comprehensive answer, Wyrd. I’d never dismiss anything you do as “magickal bollocks,” and from what we chatted about on the Goetia topic I know that you attempt safeguards whenever possible.

The fact that you ensured that the sigil wasn’t posted is evidence of this. I guess my lingering reservations centre around the fact that sigils aren’t the only way to work magic and interact with beasties, and that the Servitor may not be the only beastie involved.

My (very) limited knowledge is that the sigil forms in the mind of an individual during spiritual exercises. I don’t know if that’s entirely right, or whether there’s other ways (i.e. using the conscious mind to construct it to achieve a specific purpose) - you’ll have enlighten me here, my friend. The question is, is there a possibility that the sigil could be pre-existent, before the moment of apparent creation (kind of like Richard Dreyfuss’ obsession with the mountain in Close Encounters)? Even if it is not pre-existent, there are precedents for magickal phenomena self-perpetuating, which, while not being evidence of the influence of beasties, does raise questions about our abilities to keep a lid on whatever we open (meaning: we may not have to be physically shown the sigil in order to see it, because there no evidence that the “creator” was responsible for its creation or solely reinforces its perpetuation). You’ve wisely limited access to the experiment - I’m still not convinced that will limit the experiment’s access to the board. This is one reason why I started the topic in the Policy, rather than the Magick.

Lets leave aside the talk of the sigil, as it’s just one tool among many (perhaps with more apparent safeguards and controls - but then, you never know, eh?). One of the related experiences involved a powerful feminine goddess, used as a method of transportation to the meeting place. Now while the Servitor may have a programming that dictates it will respond only in certain ways (to members of the board who have elected to be involved), that doesn’t necessarily mean that third parties becoming involved will have any such compunctions. Are the nature of the experiment and the programming of the Servitor hidden from other spirits? I would imagine (like so much of this issue) that you can attempt safeguards but there’s no way it can be guaranteed. Have you allowed for any interest shown by other beasties?

There may be no direct danger to anyone who has elected not to be involved - that doesn’t preclude the course or source of events presenting their own dangers. That’s the main reason why this is in the Policy: there’s a lot of people here who didn’t choose this, and yet Barbelith (almost typed Barbershop by mistake!) Membership seems to be an inherent factor. I’d love it if no harm were to come, but I do think it may be worth setting out guidelines for any kind of future activities, which may have to go beyond your understanding of your own belief system.

In response to why I didn’t speak up earlier, I wish I had. There was a long period during which my PC was very ill. As a result, I didn’t read the topic until after the launch date. I briefly scanned through the topic on the old version of the site, but must not have fully considered the ramifications of tying the programming of the Servitor to the board. You’ll mainly find me harping on about hip hop in the Music, so I’m really sorry to come to the debate late, ill-prepared, and smelling slightly.

Oh - Pin: I don’t know shit about it either (you’d NEVER have guessed - heavy self deprecation and sarcasm). Much of my understanding comes from the previous Goetia topic, and the fact that previous topics use a lot of computer and programming analogies. However, I do know that these forms of magick aren’t the only forms, and that it’s possible for anyone working in supernatural circles to become a beastie magnet. My own experiences come from a Christian angle. I would personally choose not to get involved with any of this sort of thing. A lot of the time I’m not given the option, but I know that I will be protected from circumstances that I didn’t bring about. In answer to your question, if I were to start listing methods of working with the supernatural that may be dangerous we’d be here all day.
 
 
Wyrd
22:56 / 24.06.01
quote:Originally posted by expressionless:
I don’t know if that’s entirely right, or whether there’s other ways (i.e. using the conscious mind to construct it to achieve a specific purpose) - you’ll have enlighten me here, my friend.

The servitor was very much a conscious creation.

quote: The question is, is there a possibility that the sigil could be pre-existent, before the moment of apparent creation (kind of like Richard Dreyfuss’ obsession with the mountain in Close Encounters)?

No, the servitor is new.

quote:Even if it is not pre-existent, there are precedents for magickal phenomena self-perpetuating, which, while not being evidence of the influence of beasties, does raise questions about our abilities to keep a lid on whatever we open (meaning: we may not have to be physically shown the sigil in order to see it, because there no evidence that the “creator” was responsible for its creation or solely reinforces its perpetuation). You’ve wisely limited access to the experiment - I’m still not convinced that will limit the experiment’s access to the board. This is one reason why I started the topic in the Policy, rather than the Magick.

As I said the last time, I doubt I will be able to assuage all your fears on this matter. The servitor is set up to scan anyone/thing for intent if it attempts to interact with the servitor. It will not allow tampering or modification of any of its base design structures. I have quite a long series of safeguards built into it, including several contingancy plans. People who did not get involved with the activation process will only have limited access to the servitor for example - plus it will not bother anyone who is not interested in it function.

quote:Now while the Servitor may have a programming that dictates it will respond only in certain ways (to members of the board who have elected to be involved), that doesn’t necessarily mean that third parties becoming involved will have any such compunctions. Are the nature of the experiment and the programming of the Servitor hidden from other spirits? I would imagine (like so much of this issue) that you can attempt safeguards but there’s no way it can be guaranteed. Have you allowed for any interest shown by other beasties?

Yes, I have, see the above. I'm extremely careful in the creation of servitors. The servitor was made with the safety of all concerned (plus its own safety) quite firmly in mind. There is no way to "hide" something like the servitor from the attention of all entities, though it is designed to be unobtrusive, and it doesn't overtly attract attention to itself. If anything does attempt to interfer with it, then there is a series of responses the servitor will react with depending on the level of threat.

quote:Membership seems to be an inherent factor. I’d love it if no harm were to come, but I do think it may be worth setting out guidelines for any kind of future activities, which may have to go beyond your understanding of your own belief system.

You'll have to explain yourself here a bit more Expressionless, especially in the last part of your sentence.

I operate within quite a stringent set of guidelines when dealing magically with other people. Since I have repeatedly stated that the servitor will not interfere with anyone who does not want its attention, then I think at this point you'll have to trust me that this is the case. I can do no more than to reassure you on this point.
 
 
Mr Tricks
04:44 / 25.06.01
Well . . this does seem to float into the relm of faith doesn't it.

Perceptual reality an all . . . I find myself reinvested in my own attention to detail & care . . . yet the faith is still there.

I think there is a divergence in how the "idea" of a Barbelith energy signiture is being precieved.

My understanding of the Servitor is that first it will check for association with barbeltih first. if it's there then the servitor would proceed in interacting. With-out such a "signature" the servitor would not quite bother.

In the mean time I do not see where association with Barbelith would act as a "homeing beacon" here. there seems to be a sort of Yin Yang difference in the functions.

my $0.02
 
 
Seth
05:10 / 25.06.01
Thanks for indulging me, everyone. I doubt I'll get a chance to post anything for a few days - I'll get back to you Thursday of Friday (but to be honest, I think you're right, Wyrd - there's not a lot else either of us can say on the subject). Just letting you know so you didn't think I'd read your responses and was pissed off and didn't want to reply.

quote: "I hate your ass face! You're all just bastard people! I'm going to go home and bite my pillow." - Waiting for Guffman

[ 25-06-2001: Message edited by: expressionless ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
22:57 / 25.06.01
The thing that made me decide to actually participate in the creation of the servitor was in the way that Wyrd designed him.

In my opinion it was not only a good and sound design, it was also a responsible design.
 
  
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